Topic: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? - page 5. (Read 6056 times)

If we look at a good half of Ukraine, we will see that a lot of people there wish they had a stable government. Things aren't pretty when they are out of balance.

Anyways, we haven't had an open system like Bitcoin before. Who knows, maybe it will turn things for the better. Maybe people will learn, maybe people will care. Let's give it a chance to play out the way it was created - open and free. In the mean time we can experiment with all the other stuff we can think of.

Government provides the service of promising more than it can collect in taxes. And the people always love it. Again this is an IRON LAW of Political Economics. This can never change because it is human nature. Everybody loves something for nothing. And politicians are expert at telling them it is plausible. Since Mesopotamia humans have been falling for it. And they will be falling for it for eternity.

The only escape is anonymity where the socialism can't extract its horrible nature from you.

Putting every transaction on the block chain does nothing to stop the government from borrowing money. It does nothing to stop kickbacks from government transactions. Are you going to prevent every contractor's employee from using an anonymous coin?

http://armstrongeconomics.com/library-research/encyclopedia-of-ethical-failure/


You see if you require the government always conduct on transparent block chain, it becomes an enslavement for everyone, otherwise you can't stop the leakage and ways of gaming the system.

The supply of Bitcoin will never be limited to 21 million coins unless you can find a way to outlaw finance and debt. But the people love debt and that is something that will never change. Usury was illegal and it coincided with a Dark Age. It was when the restriction of usury was removed that the Enlightenment and the economy began moving again. Because most people don't function on savings. Money is always power-law distributed, because most of humanity lives for today.

Statists always think they can create a nirvana. They are so delusional.

Edit: However I agree with you that there is one valid function of government. To resolve conflicts. If there is no authority with bigger guns, men fight to resolve who has the bigger gun. So here is where you vote with your feet. You withdraw your consent to that authority when it is being abused by employing your anonymity (withdraw funding by non-reporting of taxable activities), e.g. the USA military resource is being abused.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating any illegal activities. I am not a professor adviser. Please consult your own.

If requirement is such, that taxes (obligatory or voluntary) are collected on an open blockchain, then existence of other payment methods will not jeopardize the transparency of government's spending, as the exit points to any anonymized system will be clearly seen.

I agree that open and closed systems should compete with each other, so that neither is abused. If there is too much taxes and they are wasted on things people don't need, then population will slowly move into a shadow economy. However the opposite is also true, if the shadow way of doing things doesn't bring much comfort and stability to society, people will be willing to fund a good government with their taxes to keep things in order.

Current governments will be faced with a choice at some point: wether to keep accumulating debt in fiat or start adopting crypto, in which case a fierce competition for control over the crypto will make sure that people's opinions on how to proceed forward will need to be taken into account. Government would need to present a service that people will be willing to support.

I guess all that porn I downloaded from Usenet and BBS sites in the very early 80's wasn't real. I still remember when Rusty & Eddy's was busted for copyright infringement for having Playboy scans. You're obviously like 12 or something. I lived through it and porn was one of the biggest best sellers on the web before there was a web. I'll leave you with a little blast from the past.



1970s Porn goddess Terri Hall

I don't disagree, but it seems to me you missed at least one of my salient points. A paradigm is not open if it is the only way allowed. Such a goal is self-enslavement. Thus for sure there will exist anonymous block chains. So just forget being able to enforce that all corruption is 100% transparent always. There will never be a solution for that. And there shouldn't be because taking action against it, is centralizing. Politics is centralizing. Voting is centralizing. These all require a collective outcome.

Voting with our feet is decentralizing, because each person can act independently and gets his or her result instantly. As you vote by withholding your funding for the corruption (because you are anonymous you can), you contributed to minimizing it. Instantly. Decentrally.

When you agree with the efficiency of the government and see a necessary project, you agree to fund it. In order words, we privatize the government. They have to perform well. Similar to crowdfunding.

The solution to government corruption is eliminating (privatizing) government. Socialists hate this because they don't trust humanity. They think someone needs to force people to be caring and helpful. In reality, socialists create megadeath because they create the environment (government) for corruption and at the end game peak totalitarianism.

Socialism (and any other form of forced collectivism) is incongruent with openness and decentralization. I have no idea why a European or Obama socialist would support Bitcoin. They would need to be very confused (unless they are just fighting against anonymity improvements and thus want Bitcoin to be regulated).

Thank you for prompting me and giving me the insight of how to clarify my point. We learn from each other, by sharing.

Crypto-currency might not be the only way to transact for now, but the network effects will eventually make it one of the primary systems on the planet. Unlike unsustainable fiat's debt-spirals, current major PoW coins are all gain-spirals. It means that incentives are there for the replacement process to continue unhindered.

Requirements for transparency and accountability can be gradually put in place while governments are slowly evolving and adapting to the new way of doing things. Governments are not some alien rogue entities that were enforced on people from outside, but rather it is people themselves who created governments to make society civilized and keep things in order.

We need an outstanding example of an open transparent money system (which Bitcoin is first installment of) to compete with closed obscure and entrenched ones currently in place. There might be some demand for fully anonymous crypto, but I believe it will constitute a small niche. Remember what kind of outrage an opaque voting system caused in the recent Bitcoin Foundation elections? It's a shame, especially when blockchain technology allows for full accountability and transparency.

Open is the way forward.

jbreher,

Unfortunately CoinJoin is jammable otherwise we could get on chain anonymity without a fork of Bitcoin's protocol. Btw, I (AnonyMint) was the first person to point out to gmaxell (in the CoinJoin thread) that his ideas to prevent jamming were not sound and that no ideas could possibly be. DarkCoin reiterated this by trading jammability for giving up the identities to the masternodes (which can be Sybil attacked). DarkWallet has not solved the jammability and will thus fail.

Also I don't know how you can pay-per-packet in real-time (i.e. 0 delay) for the Tor redesign I proposed with a 10 minute block confirmation delay. Well actually I do know how (one of my secrets) but 10 minutes is still too extreme (I can't yet describe problems but I anticipate complications the longer the delay). 1 minute may be fine.

Also let's not forget UDP and FTP came before adoption of TCP/IP and HTTP respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Transfer_Protocol#Differences_from_HTTP

Yet we did not throw out the mechanisms they gave us, and replace them with something altogether different. TCP/IP and HTTP still underpin nearly all internet traffic.

It was the layers built later atop these protocols that made the web the rich compelling experience we enjoy today.

One might argue that the base protocols might be improved apon (spoof resistant email, anyone?) However, they seem to have been good enough.

Exactly there is a valid duality to consider. I did a mea culpa on that.

I would phrase that not as "bring in more regulation" (government will attempt to avoid regulating something they can't although they fail to recognize in many cases, because it draws attention to their impotence), but rather that Bitcoin can gain more mainstream adoption in at least one sense, i.e. through government compliant providers such as Paypal.

I don't know if I agree if Bitcoin can get more adoption overall versus a hypothetical altcoin. The most decentralized coin will win that race of scaling. Bitcoin has a lead and it is compatible with the government approved world.

Experimentation can potentially answer that question.

I know you are referring to efficiency of capital not being misallocated, i.e. the efficiency gained from decentralization.

Therefor I assert if Bitcoin falls to government regulation as I allege will likely happen, it is no longer as efficient as the decentralization ideal.

Thus I assert a regulation resistant altcoin can in reality end up more efficient than Bitcoin in terms of decentralized allocation of capital and resources in an economy.

If you were referring to other measures of efficiency, such as transaction speed. An altcoin could possibly improve upon Bitcoin.

"IMO, best to not state anything at all after you've done it once. If they refuse to adapt, when shit really hits the fan, then they'll learn."  

Though I can see both sides of the equation. Bitcoin's trying to gain mainstream adoption, implementing things you've proposed might hinder that and bring in more regulation.

No. Not exclusively. Just whether you would jump with any significant portion of your interest, effort, and money, i.e. more than an insignificant smidgen. Assume any quality of implementation required by you.

I've seen this advocated as a positive for Bitcoin many times. So my rebuttal is not targeted at you personally, but at the concept which you've ostensibly learned from others.

This assumes crypto-currency will be the only currency or the public can force all government transactions on to the block chain, which I assert is irrational and delusional to the extreme.

If ever you had only one way to transact, we'd be slaves in a 666 system (don't tell me that with decentralization we'd be free of the Law of Collective Political Economics, impossible...don't abuse yourself with notions of eliminating nature and achieving perfect nirvana).

We can't even force the government to reveal all information about the NSA, so we surely can't force them to be open when they have other options for transacting, kickbacks, and other ways of gaming the system.

Also we already know about the government transactions in sufficient detail to know about the corruption, but we still can't vote them out of office. We the People lack the power in democracy is because of the Law of Collective Political Economics.

The way crypto-currency will reform government is "voting by feet". When people have a way to walk away from the government edicts, e.g. confiscate and redistribute (ahem tax and spend), the government becomes impotent or at least the people have a finer grained veto on socialism because each person can make his or her financial weight counted in terms of what they agree to and not.

In other words, tax should never be mandatory and should always be by consent of the governed[1].

And this is why anonymity is so important so we can force the government to accept that we are each individually sovereign and must be respected as such, as opposed the current situation where we are owned by our government and enslaved as such. This is not black and white demarcation line, but a slider of comparative power. We individuals always need to be improving our decentralization technology.

Collective sovereignty is an oxymoron, because of the Law of Collective Political Economics.

If you can appreciate the above point and my point about why the collectivized majority is always wrong, then you will understand how I define an anarchist. It doesn't mean chaos, it means maximizing mutual respect and degrees-of-freedom.

[1]

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/10/03/obama-holder-destroy-the-constitution/ Quote from: POTUS Barrack Obama The belief that through conscience and free will, each of us has the right to live as we choose.  The belief that power is derived from the consent of the governed, and that laws and institutions should be established to protect that understanding.  And those ideas eventually inspired a band of colonialists across an ocean, and they wrote them into the founding documents that still guide America today, including the simple truth that all men — and women — are created equal. But those ideals have also been tested — here in Europe and around the world.  Those ideals have often been threatened by an older, more traditional view of power.  This alternative vision argues that ordinary men and women are too small-minded to govern their own affairs, that order and progress can only come when individuals surrender their rights to an all-powerful sovereign. http://armstrongeconomics.com/library/books/considerations-on-representative-government-mill/ Quote from: John Stuart Mill Whatever is the strongest power in society will obtain the governing authority; and a change in the political constitution can not be durable unless preceded or accompanied by an altered distribution of power in society itself. A nation, therefore, can not choose its form of government. The mere details, and practical organization, it may choose; but the essence of the whole, the seat of the supreme power, is determined for it by social circumstances. UnunoctiumTesticles full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 11:11:55 AM #40 Agreed, spaghetti rigor mortis can set in if too many (failed and cross-conflicting) experiments are made on the production system. One of the principles of hackerdom is to scrap-and-rebuild every so often. We can't be doing that in the production system. The production system can only justify incorporating successful experiments that have demonstrably (i.e. proven) unavoidable and critical significance. Flashman hero member Activity: 518 Merit: 500 Hodl! Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 11:07:15 AM #39 Quote from: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 02, 2014, 10:57:39 AM Have you ever considered that those advances which you speak ("Model T" versus Lamborghini) may come from altcoins with Bitcoin as the reserve currency at the center of the crypto-currency universe? Partially my point was, that when the Model T was rolled out, Henry didn't know if 25 years down the line, he'd need to be making cars with high speed freeway tires on, or large mud bogging tires because there was no road investment. The blockchain is bad enough, last thing we need is a 50 Gigabyte bitcoin core monstrosity programmed to deal with all possible futures. UnunoctiumTesticles full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 10:57:39 AM #38 Quote from: Flashman on December 02, 2014, 10:48:30 AM Of course it's not going in there any time soon if it's not needed any time soon. Exactly. If. Have you ever considered that those advances which you speak ("Model T" versus LamborghiniToyota Prius) may come from altcoins with Bitcoin as the reserve currency at the center of the crypto-currency universe? Tim Berners-Lee and Vint Cerf didn't create the entire web. There were millions of innovators. As an analogy in the gold mining world or even for Facebook, the smaller mines or startups make the innovations, then they are acquired, e.g. WhatsApp. The humongous returns on investment are made on the earlier stage riskier investments. Uh oh, I feel gold rush fever may be returning soon again to cryptoland, once we bottom and start the next leg up. I'm sure many of you share the same sentiment. UnunoctiumTesticles full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 10:48:39 AM #37 jyakulis, again mea culpa. You are correct. Flashman hero member Activity: 518 Merit: 500 Hodl! Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 10:48:30 AM #36 Quote from: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 02, 2014, 10:31:49 AM Didn't you read DannyHamilton confirm upthread that none of the innovations I suggested will be coming to Bitcoin any time soon. And I don't need augmented reality tech to do everyday shit like put the garbage out, what's your point? It may be years before I get a laser guided GPS locatable garbage can, with sights on a headsup display, OMG tech is failing us. We've hit peak tech because eveyone has heard of laser guided stuff and GPS and headsup displays, but I can't get it on my garbage can, it's all downhill from here, sell Intel, sell Apple.   Of course it's not going in there any time soon if it's not needed any time soon. jyakulis sr. member Activity: 469 Merit: 250 J Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed? December 02, 2014, 10:41:37 AM #35 Quote from: UnunoctiumTesticles on December 02, 2014, 10:37:10 AM Quote from: jyakulis on December 02, 2014, 10:33:53 AM If you think it sucks why are you here? This thread is a marketing survey so that before some developer wastes a lot of time implementing, he is already sure there is a market for his effort. I do think there are some virtues to Bitcoin. For example, if someone does create the killer altcoin, then all those Paypal accounts can get Bitcoin, then trade on a decentralized exchange for that altcoin. Bitcoin has a purpose and probably not only that one. I think of Bitcoin as the reserve currency of crypto. OK, but applications for bitcoin are largely rolled out to other cryptocurrencies. At least eventually. I think it's unwise to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak as well. But to say that development in bitcoin is a waste is naive at best. These ideas will flow to other cryptocurrencies. And additionally, some of the add ons to other alt coins (dogecoin) in particular that I currently really like have flowed back into bitcoin (tipping features). 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