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Topic: Is Bitcoin money? - page 154. (Read 112169 times)

legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
October 04, 2010, 08:57:05 PM
#51
So, is Bitcoin money? No, it isn't. It doesn't WANT to be money either! And it isn't the world's police force for monetary fairness, either.

So, let's stop claiming that it is!

What would economic think of bitcoin as? The most obvious conclusion that it is MONEY because it serve the function of money.


If you intended to ask what economists would think Bitcoin was, then I can certainly say that the answer would be a currency.  No economist who ever stated that Bitcoin was a money in any serious capacity should ever teach students again, and could never expect to get a paying job outside of academia, with the single exception of the New York Times.  But the last I checked, the NYT already has such a pretender on the payroll.



What is the difference between currency and money?

My dictionary research yielded that currency is a current medium of exchange and that money is a medium of exchange. Since, people are actually using it as medium of exchange, therefore, it is both money and currency.
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
October 04, 2010, 08:53:08 PM
#50

Sure, whether you call Bitcoin money or not is "just" semantics.  Unfortunately, semantics matters. It doesn't matter for people in this forum. Most of us understand Bitcoin.  But it does matter in terms of PR. 

We can't expect the average Joe to understand Bitcoin. (I have given up trying to explain Bitcoin to my cousin, and he is a frigging FX trader by profession!). That's why we need to pay attention to how Bitcoin appeals to the emotions of the average Joe. Details that seem silly to us geeks may make all the difference between success and failure. It doesn't hurt to discuss them.

Yes. Whether you call it PR, or ethics, or risk planning, or just having a clue, language does matter. Especially when you use it to persuade others of your service.

I've made my point abundantly. And now I resign. Either carry the ball or don't.



legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 08:02:26 PM
#49
So, is Bitcoin money? No, it isn't. It doesn't WANT to be money either! And it isn't the world's police force for monetary fairness, either.

So, let's stop claiming that it is!

What would economic think of bitcoin as? The most obvious conclusion that it is MONEY because it serve the function of money.


If you intended to ask what economists would think Bitcoin was, then I can certainly say that the answer would be a currency.  No economist who ever stated that Bitcoin was a money in any serious capacity should ever teach students again, and could never expect to get a paying job outside of academia, with the single exception of the New York Times.  But the last I checked, the NYT already has such a pretender on the payroll.

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 07:58:38 PM
#48
To get right down to it, bitcoins are property because users behave as if that is the case.  As I see it, Bitcoin passes the 'Duck' test just fine.  Care to share how you have come to the conclusion that it does not?

The difference is psychological. There seems to be a consensus among the community that bitcoin exchanges should rely on reputation rather than contracts. There isn't a sense of obligation like there is with money. We are more tolerant to the possibility of scams. We see a degree of leeching as a given and factor it into the equation. We try to minimise it instead of preventing it by force. We rely on relationships rather than a sense of universal morality.


The consensus is that bitcoin exchanges should rely on reputation rather then the enforcement of contracts.  Any agreement to exchange is a contract, even if there is no document to prove that such a contract exists.  There is a very real, ideological reason for this "consensus"; namely that much of this community is some flavor of classical liberal, most of whom either pledge or otherwise generally agree with the "Non-aggression principle" in all facets of life.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 07:52:37 PM
#47
[ (I have given up trying to explain Bitcoin to my cousin, and he is a frigging FX trader by profession!).


Was mentioning your cousin's work intended to improve our opinion of your cousin's economic education?

I can, and have, explained Bitcoin to random people in under a half hour, including my own mildly autistic little brother.  None of whom had a ridgid, preconcieved understanding of what money or currency is.

Granted, none of those same people care about Bitcoin after understanding it, but I'm confident that they understood it well enough to know that they don't really care.

Creighton
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
October 04, 2010, 06:56:58 PM
#46
So, is Bitcoin money? No, it isn't. It doesn't WANT to be money either! And it isn't the world's police force for monetary fairness, either.

So, let's stop claiming that it is!

What would economic think of bitcoin as? The most obvious conclusion that it is MONEY because it serve the function of money. There used to be people who use giant rocks as money, shells as money, cows as money, etc.

Money arise naturally out of a barter economy, and advance from there. From there, we see that gold, salts, and other commodity evolved into money over time. Hence the phrase as "This guys is worth his salt".

Money is not some legalistic conception that arise out of king saying "THIS IS MONEY, USE IT OR DIE".

Bitcoin is as bitcoiners do.

What silverman seem to be doing is conflating legalistic thinking and strategies with the economic science.
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
October 04, 2010, 06:16:31 PM
#45
To get right down to it, bitcoins are property because users behave as if that is the case.  As I see it, Bitcoin passes the 'Duck' test just fine.  Care to share how you have come to the conclusion that it does not?

The difference is psychological. There seems to be a consensus among the community that bitcoin exchanges should rely on reputation rather than contracts. There isn't a sense of obligation like there is with money. We are more tolerant to the possibility of scams. We see a degree of leeching as a given and factor it into the equation. We try to minimise it instead of preventing it by force. We rely on relationships rather than a sense of universal morality.
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
October 04, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
#44
should we all have a drink together, say cheers and the focus more on making BITCOIn bigger vs. endless debates of what it is?

sorry for that "nasty' comment, but I feel we could bundle our energies vs. debating forever (I am sure apple people could have debated decades on how to call the IPad or iPhone or mac or whatever)

Sure, whether you call Bitcoin money or not is "just" semantics.  Unfortunately, semantics matters. It doesn't matter for people in this forum. Most of us understand Bitcoin.  But it does matter in terms of PR. 

We can't expect the average Joe to understand Bitcoin. (I have given up trying to explain Bitcoin to my cousin, and he is a frigging FX trader by profession!). That's why we need to pay attention to how Bitcoin appeals to the emotions of the average Joe. Details that seem silly to us geeks may make all the difference between success and failure. It doesn't hurt to discuss them.
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
October 04, 2010, 05:17:16 PM
#43
should we all have a drink together, say cheers and the focus more on making BITCOIn bigger vs. endless debates of what it is?

sorry for that "nasty' comment, but I feel we could bundle our energies vs. debating forever (I am sure apple people could have debated decades on how to call the IPad or iPhone or mac or whatever)

I agree that we should all have a drink together, and that this debate does seem to be endless, but I disagree that this is pointless, and think rather that this debate is vital to the survival of Bitcoin.

First, let's remind ouselves that the question is "is Bitcoin money?", and I welcome creighto's agreement with my view that it is not. I'll go along with his statement that "bitcoins are a new/unique form of currency unit," although I am not wild about using the term currency either. "To even call them a commodity is granting them more attributes than they posses" is a nice, restrictive statement, and I'm all in favor of restricting things. It makes them easier to manage.

I also like kiba's "Nobody is advocating on how to decide how much bitcoins is worth, what the proper use of bitcoins is, etc al. What people like me are doing is trying to DESCRIBE REALITY aka scientific definition, not prescribe some rules that bitcoiners shold be following." Which is exactly where I am going with this. If we state that Bitcoins are to be traded for dollars, or worse, that Bitcoins are "worth" so many dollars, somebody at some time is going to rely on our own statements and demand performance, in a real court, with some of our members actually sitting there while the issue is decided.

Bitcoin has no provision for converting itself into world currencies. To claim that it can is fraud, and we should discourage our members from doing so. Bitcoin does not own or control Mt. Gox, Bitcoin 4 Cash, mybitcoin, or any other Bitcoin exchange. They operate independently, and Bitcoin should realize that their independence is a good thing. It insulates Bitcoin from the wrath of the currency frauds, who will surely object to this new upstart horning in on their territory.

Ditto for enforcement of contracts. Bitcoin has no provisions for keeping the public honest, other than keeping their books straight. No courts, no jails, no wars. It's simpler that way.

So, is Bitcoin money? No, it isn't. It doesn't WANT to be money either! And it isn't the world's police force for monetary fairness, either.

So, let's stop claiming that it is!



legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 04:11:23 PM
#42
I shouldn't have to say this, but Bitcoin isn't a fiat currency.  It is a currency by the choices and designs of those who choose to use it.  Fiat currencies are currencies as a matter of law, so your obvious counterexample, isn't.
The default situation for governments is the same as for Bitcoin. Then governments make laws to give their currencies additional advantages. Bitcoin managed even without these extra advantages.


How, exactly, does that change the argument?  Are we talking about the same thing?

As for your belief that governments go to great lengths to get paid in anything other than their own currencies, try paying your property taxes in gold coins or in another fiat currency from another country.  If you can do this without the additional step of conversion into the local fiat currency, then I'd like to hear about it.
No, but there is an endless list of governments with bad currencies that has expropriated and banned posession of other currencies, legislated artificial exchange rates, run special foreign currency stores, demanded foreign currency deposits from foreigners, demanded exchange of certain sums before entry into the country and raided banks for gold and foreign currency.


These are all examples of attempts by failing governments to prop up their fiat currency by artificially increasing the demand of same.  That is the exact reason that every government that I know of expects payment of taxes within it's own currency.
db
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 261
October 04, 2010, 04:07:17 PM
#41
I shouldn't have to say this, but Bitcoin isn't a fiat currency.  It is a currency by the choices and designs of those who choose to use it.  Fiat currencies are currencies as a matter of law, so your obvious counterexample, isn't.
The default situation for governments is the same as for Bitcoin. Then governments make laws to give their currencies additional advantages. Bitcoin managed even without these extra advantages.

As for your belief that governments go to great lengths to get paid in anything other than their own currencies, try paying your property taxes in gold coins or in another fiat currency from another country.  If you can do this without the additional step of conversion into the local fiat currency, then I'd like to hear about it.
No, but there is an endless list of governments with bad currencies that has expropriated and banned posession of other currencies, legislated artificial exchange rates, run special foreign currency stores, demanded foreign currency deposits from foreigners, demanded exchange of certain sums before entry into the country and raided banks for gold and foreign currency.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 03:59:36 PM
#40
Quote
Make a contract. Enforce it in a court.

That is the problem.

In order to enforce a contract involving Bitcoins, all the following conditions need to be fulfilled:

1) Bob and Alice need to agree on some centralised court or protection agency.
2) Bob needs to prove to the court that he "owns" Bitcoin address X by digitally signing a court statement.
3) Alice needs to prove to the court the she "owns" Bitcoin address Y by digitally signing a court statement.
4) Alice and Bob need to digitally sign a contract that 100 bitcoins will be sent from X to Y and that Alice will deliver 10 widgets to Bob.
5) Either Bob or Alice needs to leave some sort of collateral with the court, either in the form of an escrow deposit, or in the form of giving the court jurisdiction over their meat identity.
6) Alice needs to have the ability to prove to court that she has delivered 10 widgets.
7) Bob needs to have the ability to prove to court that he did not receive 10 widgets.


Bitcoin CAN be utilised in this way, but this would be cumbersome, expensive, and it would negate most of the advantages of Bitcoin, namely:

1) anonymity
2) low transaction costs
3) speed
4) independence from a centralised third party
6) irreversibility

People are not likely to use Bitcoin in the first place if they have to relinquish that much authority to a centralised court; they may as well use the court's own mint and be done with it.


I agree with all of this so far, even though I disagree that it's as much a burden as you imply.  The vast majority of casual contracts never need any kind of enforcement, and even those operate within a civic standard for the vast majority of the above.  In the modern age, that civic standard is the government court system that we are all aware of, but this is not the only way these things have been done in the past.  Common law courts of the western societies prior to the rise of strong, centralized governments are one example; and international business courts are another more modern example.  Most of the contracts occur under some kind of default environment known to both parties, and the nature of said environment has no bearing upon Bitcoin or vise versa.

Quote

This is why I said that Bitcoin doesn't pass the Duck Test for property.  The economic reality for the majority of Bitcoin users is that it doesn't behave like property. 

It certainly does behave like property.  Property is an abstract concept that existed long before nations or governments, and is independent of the existance of either.  To get right down to it, bitcoins are property because users behave as if that is the case.  As I see it, Bitcoin passes the 'Duck' test just fine.  Care to share how you have come to the conclusion that it does not?
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
October 04, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
#39
Quote
Make a contract. Enforce it in a court.

That is the problem.

In order to enforce a contract involving Bitcoins, all the following conditions need to be fulfilled:

1) Bob and Alice need to agree on some centralised court or protection agency.
2) Bob needs to prove to the court that he "owns" Bitcoin address X by digitally signing a court statement.
3) Alice needs to prove to the court the she "owns" Bitcoin address Y by digitally signing a court statement.
4) Alice and Bob need to digitally sign a contract that 100 bitcoins will be sent from X to Y and that Alice will deliver 10 widgets to Bob.
5) Either Bob or Alice needs to leave some sort of collateral with the court, either in the form of an escrow deposit, or in the form of giving the court jurisdiction over their meat identity.
6) Alice needs to have the ability to prove to court that she has delivered 10 widgets.
7) Bob needs to have the ability to prove to court that he did not receive 10 widgets.


Bitcoin CAN be utilised in this way, but this would be cumbersome, expensive, and it would negate most of the advantages of Bitcoin, namely:

1) anonymity
2) low transaction costs
3) speed
4) independence from a centralised third party
6) irreversibility

People are not likely to use Bitcoin in the first place if they have to relinquish that much authority to a centralised court; they may as well use the court's own mint and be done with it.

This is why I said that Bitcoin doesn't pass the Duck Test for property.  The economic reality for the majority of Bitcoin users is that it doesn't behave like property. 
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 03:09:40 PM
#38

and the condition that taxes due must be paid in said fiat currency in order to grant a fiat currency it's initial demand and maintain it's value.  Hard moneies, such as gold or silver, do not require such institutional support.

That's not necessary. There is an obvious counterexample: Bitcoin. Governments often go to great lengths to get paid in anything but their own currencies. And wouldn't demanding taxes in any form and using that wealth to back the currency they issue to buy stuff do the same thing as demanding taxes to be paid in it?


I shouldn't have to say this, but Bitcoin isn't a fiat currency.  It is a currency by the choices and designs of those who choose to use it.  Fiat currencies are currencies as a matter of law, so your obvious counterexample, isn't.

As for your belief that governments go to great lengths to get paid in anything other than their own currencies, try paying your property taxes in gold coins or in another fiat currency from another country.  If you can do this without the additional step of conversion into the local fiat currency, then I'd like to hear about it.
legendary
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1000
October 04, 2010, 03:07:20 PM
#37
should we all have a drink together, say cheers and the focus more on making BITCOIn bigger vs. endless debates of what it is?

sorry for that "nasty' comment, but I feel we could bundle our energies vs. debating forever (I am sure apple people could have debated decades on how to call the IPad or iPhone or mac or whatever)
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
October 04, 2010, 02:58:29 PM
#36
Bitcoin is intended to be used as money. The extent to which it differs from the various definitions of money is primarily due to its unpopularity and lack of government sanction, which in my opinion should not matter when speaking about it as "money."
db
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 261
October 04, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
#35
The new way, fiat currencies, require both the implicit enforcement of the issuing governments
Enforcement of contracts? Why?

and the condition that taxes due must be paid in said fiat currency in order to grant a fiat currency it's initial demand and maintain it's value.  Hard moneies, such as gold or silver, do not require such institutional support.

That's not necessary. There is an obvious counterexample: Bitcoin. Governments often go to great lengths to get paid in anything but their own currencies. And wouldn't demanding taxes in any form and using that wealth to back the currency they issue to buy stuff do the same thing as demanding taxes to be paid in it?
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
October 04, 2010, 02:53:35 PM
#34
I consider that economic definition take precedence and importance over legal definition. End of story.

Government are not forever. The rules of economics are. Government are authorities. Economics is a science.

You cannot nullify the concept of economic scarcity even when we entered a non-scarce economic reality. You cannot nullify truth.

Quote
I'm giving these statements a very shallow treatment, but so far I see no compelling reason why we should not put an imaginary wall between what is Bitcoin the program, and what is Bitcoin the community, the traders, and the economy.

If we make this distinction, we will see that there is no need for Bitcoin to ever go over its wall, to meddle in the "proper" use of Bitcoins, to decide how much a Bitcoin may be "worth", or to enforce private contracts.

And I think that is a good thing.

Nobody is advocating on how to decide how much bitcoins is worth, what the proper use of bitcoins is, etc al. What people like me are doing is trying to DESCRIBE REALITY aka scientific definition, not prescribe some rules that bitcoiners shold be following.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
October 04, 2010, 02:46:49 PM
#33

What it does is act like money. (In what way does an accounting program act like money?)


In the way that people act in a manner that implies that, for them, there is no practical difference between the output of the accounting program and the physical trade of money.  Money is a social method of accounting, just a special one. 

Quote

It's a form of intellectual property,.. (It's as intellectual as an inch, or a kilometer.)


The blockchain could be considered the unit of measure, as that isn't owned by anyone in particular.  But the ownership of a particular sum of bitcoins by a particular collection of addresses at a particular point in time; is, indeed, a form of intellectual property.  In the manner that it's is an abstract concept that we (the society known as the bitcoin community) assign a value to, and also agree upon a particular possession of.

It's not the best way to think of Bitcoin, I admit, but I was playing off of the post that I was responding to.

Quote

...but the paper object isn't the property. (You're making my argument, creighto.)


I am, in a manner of speaking.  I have always agreed with you that bitcoins are not money, but money and currency are not quite the same thing.  My disagreement with you is that I can't agree that bitcoins are a commodity, since they have no known alternative use in order to grant them value outside of the context of a medium of trade.  If they did, then they would be money in the literal sense.  As such, bitcoins are a new/unique form of currency unit.  Nothing more, nothing less.  To even call them a commodity is granting them more attributes than they posses.

Quote

Neither bitcoins nor gold needs the protection services of governments nor courts to perform their primary functions ... (Yes.) ... as a trade medium. (No. How is a number a "trade medium"?)


All currency, fiat or otherwise, are simply numbers at their core.  Gold is money, but is only a currency in a form that can be considered a unit by the market, such as the troy ounce or the gram.  An undefined lump of gold isn't a currency, but it is still money.  All currencies are a unit of measurement, and all units of measurement are numbers.  The conversions of one currency into another, at a particular moment in time, is akin to the conversion of American Standard units into Metric.

Quote

The main page refers to Bitcoin avoiding the neccessity of a 'trusted third party'.  That third party is any institution that both parties trust to enforce the terms of the agreement (i.e. contract) upon the other should the deal turn sour.  This can be courts or governments, but can also be private institutions such as banking, Paypal, or whatever.  Those private institutions may (or may not) be limited in what kind of punishment that they can dish out to a bad player, but usually they also have the implicit backing of the courts via contract law anyway.  However, there is an overhead for such institutions; both in actual funds and in surrendered liberty/information. (Yes. But Bitcoin doesn't work like that. Bitcoin only keeps the records straight. The clients use whatever outside agents they wish.)


I agree, and it is in that manner that bitcoins are similar to gold or silver coins used in trade.  I don't have the time to write an article on the subject.  Again, please read Whatever Happened to Penny Candy? before continuing with this debate.  I know that you don't realize it, but you suffer from misinformation that you can easily correct.  That book takes the reader back to the beginning of the formation of natural commerce, and explains why and how money developed.  You really cannot understand money until you start at the beginning.

Quote

I'm giving these statements a very shallow treatment, but so far I see no compelling reason why we should not put an imaginary wall between what is Bitcoin the program, and what is Bitcoin the community, the traders, and the economy.

If we make this distinction, we will see that there is no need for Bitcoin to ever go over its wall, to meddle in the "proper" use of Bitcoins, to decide how much a Bitcoin may be "worth", or to enforce private contracts.

And I think that is a good thing.


You have the right to imagine a separation of program and the community, and I can see the logic.  However, you have neither the authority nor the ability to impose your rationale upon others.  This is why you will consistantly fail in your goal of defining bitcoins in any way that appears inconsistant to others, regardless of the logic or legal motivation of such a goal.

Basicly, you are 'pissing up a rope' in your attempts to get forum members to call bitcoins a form of commodity.  They will call it as they see it; be that a currency, or even money.
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
October 04, 2010, 02:09:23 PM
#32

people act as if... (so?).

What people believe partially make up economic reality. (Yes. Theirs!)

Money is not defined legally,.. (actually, it is. In multiple citations.)

The court provide bad services. (The courts shouldn't be needed for Bitcoin to perform its function.)

What it does is act like money. (In what way does an accounting program act like money?)

It's a form of intellectual property,.. (It's as intellectual as an inch, or a kilometer.)

...but the paper object isn't the property. (You're making my argument, creighto.)

"Money (even gold) relies on some sort of centralised court or protection agency that enforces property rights." (Do you propose that Bitcoin do this? How?)

Neither bitcoins nor gold needs the protection services of governments nor courts to perform their primary functions ... (Yes.) ... as a trade medium. (No. How is a number a "trade medium"?)

The main page refers to Bitcoin avoiding the neccessity of a 'trusted third party'.  That third party is any institution that both parties trust to enforce the terms of the agreement (i.e. contract) upon the other should the deal turn sour.  This can be courts or governments, but can also be private institutions such as banking, Paypal, or whatever.  Thopse private institutions may (or may not) be limited in what kind of punishment that they can dish out to a bad player, but usually they also have the implicit backing of the courts via contract law anyway.  However, there is an overhead for such institutions; both in actual funds and in surrendered liberty/information. (Yes. But Bitcoin doesn't work like that. Bitcoin only keeps the records straight. The clients use whatever outside agents they wish.)

This is exactly why third party institutions are, thus far, so neccessary for online commerce; and why such institutions will likely come to exist within the bitcoin economy eventually as well. (Within Bitcoin no, but within the Bitcoin economy, yes.)

-----

I'm giving these statements a very shallow treatment, but so far I see no compelling reason why we should not put an imaginary wall between what is Bitcoin the program, and what is Bitcoin the community, the traders, and the economy.

If we make this distinction, we will see that there is no need for Bitcoin to ever go over its wall, to meddle in the "proper" use of Bitcoins, to decide how much a Bitcoin may be "worth", or to enforce private contracts.

And I think that is a good thing.



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