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Topic: Is Buffet right or wrong? - page 4. (Read 10986 times)

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
March 19, 2014, 09:14:57 AM
ryanmnercer, mostly I agree with you and I wrote similar style of comment in the first thread about Buffet's recent accusations.

However as a young, idealistic man, please check your enthusiasm with a dose of reality on impacts which would not be readily apparent to you, given the USA has never had the type of economic implosion coming 2016ish. The Great Depression was different because we were a net creditor to the world. You can review my comments on page 6 for more details.

In short, the government is going to lay its heavy hand on crypto-currency and we don't have anonymity to stop them. And we seem to be adopting offchain accounts instead of onchain transfers as you applaud.

P.S. our mothers are similar age, even through I am 20 years older than you.


I don't even care to see bitcoin as a currency (it would be nice though), but as a method of exchange. As a small business owner I've had a few customers pay with bitcoin and it's been a huge savings in merchant fees, I've bought goods as well and known I've helped out the companies I've dealt with (one actually gave me a 33% discount for paying with bitcoin because they get so many chargebacks from fraudulant purchases they've had to inflate prices that much).

In fact, our first step should be embracing it as a way to carry out transactions and not as a store of value or currency, once widespread acceptance of it as a method of transaction is achieved THEN start nudging it towards a vehicle for storing wealth long-term. Realistically we could get bitcoin in widespread use if people would stop spouting about how they cashed out their retirement and dumped it all into bitcoin and instead started sharing with everyone "yeah I bought x, y and z with bitcoin" and "I sent my kid at college some bitcoin to cover an emergency expense they had" etc. Get people comfortable with transferring money and converting it to fiat or spending it on goods/services real fast THEN tackle it as a savings vehicle.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 19, 2014, 08:36:55 AM
ryanmnercer, mostly I agree with you and I wrote similar style of comment in the first thread about Buffet's recent accusations.

However as a young, idealistic man, please check your enthusiasm with a dose of reality on impacts which would not be readily apparent to you, given the USA has never had the type of economic implosion coming 2016ish. The Great Depression was different because we were a net creditor to the world. You can review my comments on page 6 for more details.

In short, the government is going to lay its heavy hand on crypto-currency and we don't have anonymity to stop them. And we seem to be adopting offchain accounts instead of onchain transfers as you applaud.

P.S. our mothers are similar age, even through I am 20 years older than you.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
March 19, 2014, 08:24:37 AM
Buffet is so out of touch. He and his friends are ancient dinosaurs... Buffet is 83, his second in command Munger is 90... even one of his 'lieutenants' is 58. While they all have an amazing amount of experience in business, this is the 21st century... most 50 year olds struggle wrapping their minds around new technology, my mom is in her 60's and has been working in offices since the 80's using computers and I STILL have to tell her how to attach files to her mail regularly...

We are now in a new world, I look at most of my peers and they aren't much better when it comes to technology... they talk about kik and facebook and vine, but they still hunt & peck type on their keyboards and browser security is beyond them, trying to explain cryptocurrency to them is as frustrating as teaching a dog to make a 5-course dinner. Worse, trying to tell my peers (I'm 29) the benefits of cryptocurrency and they Just. Don't. Get. It... "It's better than your debit card because the fees are so tiny" "i don't pay any fees dont no whut u meen" *cringe* "sure you do, everytime you get cash at that ATM at the gas station because you are too lazy to drive another block you are getting raped on an out of network ATM fee, when you go to that mom & pop diner you love so much and pay with your debit card the owners get raped on fees, everytime you buy another round at the bar but won't let them run a tab because you are afraid they'll steal your identity by having your card... you rape them on transaction charges ON TOP of the interest" 'yeah but i dunt pay them fees they do so whut do i cair?' *headdesk headdesk headdesk*.

So of course some dinosaurs that are bosom buddies with bankers and love fees and interest and are so out of touch with current technology are going to have poor opinions of Bitcoin.

Let's face it though, Bitcoin has been in science-fiction for ages... how many times did you see someone paying with credits in a movie or a book growing up? A TON. It was person to person digital transfer of currency... guess what WE ARE FINALLY THERE BABY!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 19, 2014, 08:05:47 AM
The intellectual content of the comments has increased significantly. I appreciate this one:

toknormal, I already explained upthread that offchain accounts lead to fractional reserves and failure

LoL. That's like saying that "not trading in gold" leads to fractional reserves and failure. Is that gold's problem ?

Yes it is gold's fault (and kudos/thanks for pointing that out), because gold has severe weaknesses such that it can't be realistically employed in commerce and thus lead to the use of proxies instead:

  • Can't be instantly transferred across distance
  • Physically visible thus a target for theft and confiscation- think roadblocks and holdups
  • Each unit of gold has only one copy, thus if you lose the one copy you've lost its value.
  • Standardized units (e.g. coins) depend on centralized authority for reputation, are not easily divisible, and can be shaved or filled with impurities.

If you've noticed, crypto-currency doesn't have those weaknesses, yet also lacks one critically important quality that gold has:

  • anonymity

You haven't thought this through. I'm afraid the only alternative to trading in proxies for value is a barter economy.

That changed when Satoshi invented a solution to the Byzantine General's problem, known as proof-of-work.

Whatever the pros and cons of a crypto-economy, speed of transactions, consumer protection et al have nothing to do with a given medium's suitability to act as a store of value.

Disagree. Gold maintains value because it has physical rareness (along with being durable, fungible, divisible with some effort, etc). Crypto-currency has no such rareness and can be easily duplicated. The value of crypto-currency has always been its ability to do autonomous (i.e. onchain) decentralized transactions due to proof-of-work.

If you remove that with offchain, then you've destroyed the only value that was there.

It is hoped that if there is value due to the onchain capability that the community will not prefer duplicates. It may also be the case that over time there will be too many network effects of higher degree (not just merchants who only accept one of the crypto-currencies), so duplicates are not desirable. We don't yet have that with Bitcoin because it doesn't have anonymity and also it can't do everything onchain including represent stocks, contracts, etc...partially due to technical reasons and partially due to lack of development and community adoption of decentralized onchain paradigms.



He is wrong. Just like he was wrong about Microsoft and Facebook.

Can you please explain why he is wrong

Bitcoin protocol is akin to tcp/ip for authenticated messaging.

Sure it is being used and pushed as a payment process.

Unlike promissory notes from one bank to another (not all banks trust one another), the present use of this protocol and its network participants is just one way to utilize this tool.

This technology has far greater implications and usage than most "established" businessmen understand.

+1. Very astute. Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1204
The revolution will be digital
March 19, 2014, 07:30:39 AM
Buffet is right for choosing a stock. But while it comes to internet, follow Winklevoss, the Buffet of the internet.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1047
March 19, 2014, 06:38:16 AM
He is wrong. Just like he was wrong about Microsoft and Facebook.

Can you please explain why he is wrong

Bitcoin protocol is akin to tcp/ip for authenticated messaging.

Sure it is being used and pushed as a payment process.

Unlike promissory notes from one bank to another (not all banks trust one another), the present use of this protocol and its network participants is just one way to utilize this tool.

This technology has far greater implications and usage than most "established" businessmen understand.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
March 19, 2014, 05:05:24 AM
toknormal, I already explained upthread that offchain accounts lead to fractional reserves and failure

LoL. That's like saying that "not trading in gold" leads to fractional reserves and failure. Is that gold's problem ?

You haven't thought this through. I'm afraid the only alternative to trading in proxies for value is a barter economy.

Whatever the pros and cons of a crypto-economy, speed of transactions, consumer protection et al have nothing to do with a given medium's suitability to act as a store of value.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1011
March 19, 2014, 12:17:47 AM
He doesn't understand concept of bitcoin
if he undestand enough, he will invest to BTC too
or maybe he said like that to wait BTC price down and buy a lot BTC for himself?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
March 19, 2014, 12:16:40 AM
I never said they have anything in common.  (Just that they all are naysayers and get press.)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 19, 2014, 12:10:38 AM
Buffet wrong just like Alan Greenspan and Jamie Dimon.

there's a lot of other wealthy powerful people who say just the opposite.

What qualities does Buffet have in common with Greenspan and Dimon?

Buffet invests for long-term, conservative income. His favorite holding period is forever.

Greenspan is a shrill for central banking. Dimon is member of the investment (e.g. junk bonds, etc) bankers who privatize profits and charge speculative losses to the public.

Buffet is tied into central banking and government because he needs his long-term business investments to not be subject to a global economic collapse and because he needs regulatory licenses for his Geico insurance, Wells Fargo bank, etc.. But his investment acumen is not of the same quality as the two you mentioned.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
March 18, 2014, 11:45:27 PM
Buffet wrong just like Alan Greenspan and Jamie Dimon.

there's a lot of other wealthy powerful people who say just the opposite.
hero member
Activity: 1191
Merit: 506
This is who we are.
March 18, 2014, 09:55:16 PM
Buffet is right.. He is releasing TRAINCOIN next month!  Allllll ABOARD  CHOOO CHOOOO MFERS!!!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 18, 2014, 09:52:39 PM
(...)
Mark my words. I am 100% sure I am correct.
(...)

I am sorry for taking your time, but how to be so sure of something? Being sure of something garantee you are correct? I sometimes am sure of things and then it turns out I am wrong and then I feel stupid. I beg, if not take too much of your time, to teach me how to be more sure and correct? I think I will be able to accomplish a lot of things, if I devise a system to be sure of things. Please help me.

All of us have made failed predictions (myself included). And your question is very humble and astute. Thank you.

I am confident of two predictions:

1. Crypto-currency can't become a unit-of-account without stronger anonymity (i.e. in an altcoin) or unless Bitcoin becomes effectively controlled by the government(s) and they decide then to give it legal-tender status. The latter can happen if most activity will be done offchain in banking institutions, which toknormal was advocating upthread.

2. Severe global economic collapse before 2020, mostly likely quite evident by 2016ish.

The reason I'm very confident of #2 is because due to the invention of central banking we are at a 200+ year high in debt, at a level that has never been seen before at 313% of global GDP (376% of developed country GDP if we exclude emerging markets), $223 trillion of debt, $1000 trillion of derivatives, and $1000 trillion of government promises to the people which are yet to be funded. That simply can't sustain and at the same time the computer is going to automate 47% of existing jobs according to Oxford University research, thus massive technological unemployment coming until the youth learn to adjust to the new paradigm. On top of that, Armstrong's computer models agree. Note although central banking was invented at the end of the Middle Ages, it didn't become globally ubiquitous until the 20th century. Central banking is what enabled the debt and socialism above to grow so humongous, because it prevented defaults and corrections by being the lender of last resort.

The reason I'm very confident of #1 is because (to re-summarize what I've written in the two Buffet threads) Max Weber's canonical definition of government (i.e. society!) is "a monopoly on force". Autonomous money goes to battle against the entire concept of society. And from a technical and human nature perspective most people prefer everything easy, thus they will not prefer to use decentralized on-chain paradigms. They will prefer to do what toknormal suggested which is use offchain accounts at banking institutions. Bitcoin currently has no compelling advantage over credit cards and paypal for most consumers (thus very few merchants accept BTC exclusively), thus it will require offchain accounts to make it more competitive. Offchain accounts is centralization and fractional reserves, and/or government regulation and oversight. We see this happening before our eyes (Mt.Gox!), yet most are still in denial?!

Thus I conclude (as much as I hate it) to admit that the old fart is correct. But I think the smart people who want to survive this coming crisis (because governments will be taxing and confiscating all the wealth due to the severe global economic collapse) will adopt an anonymous altcoin which has decentralized on-chain exchanges, payment services, etc.. And I think Buffet will be wrong about that. The quality of the implementation will determine if this is realistic or not.

Add this:

Something big is coming? 4 bankers suicide last week

Necessity: The Argument of Tyrants

Also:

You better save your money, there are going to be much bigger wars with larger stakes before 2020.

This is only the beginning. Don't even imagine you will stop it in Ukraine, because the problem driving increasing strife (e.g. see China becoming aggressive in ASEAN) is global bankruptcy. That is what is forcing every man's hand. Russia's economy is also threatened and the gas pipeline to Europe passes through Ukraine.

Did you know years ago Armstrong's computer predicted the rise in strife to come in 2014? Did you know early in 2013 Armstrong pinpointed Ukraine and Russia threatening Europe again?

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/03/will-emerging-markets-come-back/#comment-21244

Quote from: AnonyMint
Even the IMF has admitted that global debt is at a 200 year high. Central bank was invented a the end of the Middle Ages, but it wasn't ubiquitous until the 20th century. In addition to the $223 trillion debt which is 313% of global GDP, there is something on the order of $quadrillion of derivatives and another $quadrillion of actuarial promises to society which are unfunded. Central banking being the omnipresent lender of last resort is the cause of humongous monstrosity, because it prevented liquidation of TBTF throughout the 20th century.

For example the emerging markets are heavily laden with corporate dollar bond debt because due to ZIRP the fixed income investments (e.g. pensions) were forced to seek higher returns abroad. Thus emerging markets are mathematically betting short the dollar. Thus as capital flees the peripheral (i.e. non-reserve currency) markets (to include Europe and Japan by next year), there will be massive strength in the value of the reserve currency (the dollar) in 2015 and concomitant doubling in the NYSE index. This would put a spiraling (the toilet bowl) pressure on emerging markets, because they will be repaying debt with weakening local currencies. This will spiral until they exhaust dollar reserves and default on external debt, because once you take away the bubble veneer, none of them have positive current accounts. Argentina is approaching default the earliest probably in 2016.

Central banking is an abject failure.

But there is currently no better solution on tap. The fundamental issue and potential solution is much deeper than I can insert into a blog comment.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
March 18, 2014, 09:36:12 PM
Bitcoin ≠ IOU

...among other obvious differences.


Buffett has morphed from being an incredible investor into being an incredible actor. He's fond of his 'kindly old grandpa' role more than his learning about cryptocurrencies.

newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
March 18, 2014, 09:29:29 PM
(...)
Mark my words. I am 100% sure I am correct.
(...)

I am sorry for taking your time, but how to be so sure of something? Being sure of something garantee you are correct? I sometimes am sure of things and then it turns out I am wrong and then I feel stupid. I beg, if not take too much of your time, to teach me how to be more sure and correct? I think I will be able to accomplish a lot of things, if I devise a system to be sure of things. Please help me.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
March 18, 2014, 08:59:52 PM
a technical objection about the feasibility of tracking all of those dirty satoshis, from a comment to this article:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/missing-boat-on-bitcoin-ownership.html

Quote
...For each bitcoin node to be aware of each "unspent" satoshi, would require on the order of 10^16 bytes of RAM, or 10,000,000 Gigabytes. A typical computer may have 8 Gbytes of RAM, so we're talking an amount of RAM equal to one million average computers just to run a single bitcoin node. So, no I don't think it would be physically possible redesign bitcoin in a way that the "stolen parts" could be tracked and peeled off in the future.  
 
I think this is a good thing because for money to be useful it must be fungible. We should fight crime at the source--not by impinging on people's ability to use and transact money freely.




That is interesting.  The way bitcoin tracks outputs, as opposed to individual "satoshis," significantly lowers the memory requirements imposed on the nodes.  This makes the system feasible and improves fungibility.    

Bitcoins are melted, mixed with other bitcoins, and reforged each time a transaction occurs.  It reminds me of how some of the atoms of gold in the 1/10th oz coin my father gave me could have been from a bank robbery in the Old West, which had gold atoms from jewellery stolen from a maiden in medieval times, which was forged in part from gold coins looted by Caesar's army in Ancient Rome.  
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
March 18, 2014, 08:51:26 PM
Bitcoin is essentially a modern  moneygram.


This example is based on bitcoin maintaining price stability which is likely to occur when widely adopted.


Any comments?




bolded statement remains to be seen.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 18, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
a technical objection about the feasibility of tracking all of those dirty satoshis, from a comment to this article:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/missing-boat-on-bitcoin-ownership.html

Quote
...For each bitcoin node to be aware of each "unspent" satoshi, would require on the order of 10^16 bytes of RAM, or 10,000,000 Gigabytes. A typical computer may have 8 Gbytes of RAM, so we're talking an amount of RAM equal to one million average computers just to run a single bitcoin node. So, no I don't think it would be physically possible redesign bitcoin in a way that the "stolen parts" could be tracked and peeled off in the future.  
 
I think this is a good thing because for money to be useful it must be fungible. We should fight crime at the source--not by impinging on people's ability to use and transact money freely.


That is nonsense. For that same reason, Bitcoin can't even technically function if everyone has a public key with a 1 Satoshi balance.

Also on the issue of taint here is legal precedent analysis:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5497952

Mish is also ignorant:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/missing-boat-on-bitcoin-ownership.html

Quote
Theoretically, if each bitcoin (and fraction thereof) had a unique number ID (and I believe it would have been possible to have set bitcoin up this way), then they could be traced.  But if the bitcoin-blockchain was traceable in such a manner now, it would have already been done.

There is already research showing it can be done. The block chain is very traceable. Nothwithstanding that, I argued at the above legal analysis link that a more likely equitable restitution for widespread theft in mixed funds is a tax to pay for deposit insurance on Bitcoin, i.e. a shared and collective solution to theft.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
March 18, 2014, 07:55:13 PM
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
March 18, 2014, 04:12:55 PM
buffet loves his fiat currency and businesses like mastercard.

he thinks bitcoin has no value in the real world. so maybe he should watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ0sqgQ5lkA
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