Is CHINA CONTROLLING Bitcoin? - page 46.

kiklo

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Quote from: Tyrantt on November 22, 2016, 05:09:33 PM

Quote from: kiklo on November 22, 2016, 04:52:21 AM

BTC is already too expensive for the micropayments industry.

How come? the decimals go to 8 places, why do you think that it's too expensive for micropayments? fees or...?

Exchange charges me 0.00040000 to send BTC
0.00040000 = $ 0.30 US

Micro transactions are way below a penny, and much less on foreign currencies.

Say I received enough payments of micro transactions to reach a penny in payment.
Are you going to pay 30 US cents to send me 1 penny (0.00001 BTC) .
(1 US penny = 134.228 Indonesian Rupiah)

You will not be in business very long. Wink

BTC price has risen too high to be suitable for micro payments because the fees to send BTC are multiple time greater than the micro payment itself.

Quick comparisons
Exchange charges me 0.00010000 to send LTC
0.00010000 of LTC is much less than a penny

So for a coin to be suitable for micropayments it can't cost me more in fees than the amount I want to send. Wink

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Quote from: dontryjustdoit on November 22, 2016, 05:22:25 PM

If China does not have "control" they will soon. There is too many of them and they are smarter than lazy people form the USA. Just callin it like I see it.

I know that attitude of them but in reality they will not have a chance to control it. But instead they will have a chance of making some part for manipulating the price of bitcoin and as well as the quantity of it because they have the majority of the miners and I think many of them are hoarders and whales too.

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Quote from: Tyrantt on November 22, 2016, 05:09:33 PM

Quote from: kiklo on November 22, 2016, 04:52:21 AM

BTC is already too expensive for the micropayments industry.

How come? the decimals go to 8 places, why do you think that it's too expensive for micropayments? fees or...?

The number of decimal places is irrelevant as far as I can see. Since the Bitcoin price has grown dramatically during the last year, transaction fees has also greatly increased in dollar terms. I can't really fathom what is meant by micropayments industry here, I can only guess that it is about payments from Bitcoin faucets and PTC sites, though I still don't quite understand how they are affected by this price surge. Unless they pay bitcoins which they themselves buy for fiat...

Let's wait until this question gets explained in greater detail later

dontryjustdoit

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If China does not have "control" they will soon. There is too many of them and they are smarter than lazy people form the USA. Just callin it like I see it.

Tyrantt

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Quote from: kiklo on November 22, 2016, 04:52:21 AM

BTC is already too expensive for the micropayments industry.

How come? the decimals go to 8 places, why do you think that it's too expensive for micropayments? fees or...?

deisik

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Quote from: funkenstein on November 22, 2016, 10:36:39 AM

Quote from: deisik on November 22, 2016, 05:11:06 AM

This is an interesting topic as such, even outside the question whether the Chinese control Bitcoin. Obviously, when all bitcoins are already mined, miners could only earn through the transaction fees (I hope this won't become a matter of dispute). Raising the fees above some optimal level will be counterproductive, just like raising taxes above a certain percentage in an economy would only lead to a decline of the amount of taxes collected (since producers start suffering losses and cut down production). In the same way, people will simply transact less with larger amounts per transaction, and miners profits instead of growing will be shrinking...

In this way, miners will be pretty much shooting themselves in the foot if they become too greedy

The issue becomes one of whether liquidity will flee to other coins, for which the transaction fees are lower. If you are interested in this problem, consider:

A logarithmic release currency avoids this problem by always having some coinbase reward (coinbase rewards drop far slower than the geometric series / halving of bitcoin) - and yet maintaining a hard cap on the total money supply

Why not than just leave the mining reward where it is, i.e. make it constant until a preset amount of coins has been mined? I understand that it is sort of simplistic and doesn't look very enticing overall, but how is it essentially different from a logarithmic release currency? My point is that these tricks (e.g. logarithmic vs geometric series vs something else even more arcane) don't actually contribute anything really beneficial to the currency itself...

As to me, Bitcoin reward halving is the golden mean and a satisfactory compromise between sweeping simplicity and unrestrained complexity

Quote from: kiklo on November 22, 2016, 04:52:21 AM

BTC is already too expensive for the micropayments industry

Could you please expand more on micropayments industry in general and their payment rates in particular?

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Quote from: carlerha on November 21, 2016, 12:24:04 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: john2231 on November 20, 2016, 05:41:19 PM

Quote from: babo on November 20, 2016, 05:28:55 PM

More mining power is'nt equal to control bitcoin.. in my humble opinion.. who control code and community and early adopter? I think no one

Yeah agree no one can control bitcoin even they are have lots of bitcoin farm they are just mine on bitcoin not control it but they can control the price just to dump and pump. but i think they don't do that because they are expecting more price increase with bitcoin. and bitcoin is decentralize so that no one can control bitcoin..

No one really controls bitcoin but we do have big allotment and contribution for bitcoins economy. Because us, people who uses bitcoin and consumes it for real are the ones to make the fluctuation of bitcoins price to move. And of course those people who are holding and have mining power are also contributing such as China.

in fact bitcoin is anonymous and no one know about the actual number of bitcoin users and their identity, so if the number of bitcoin users in china are more than the rest of the world, and they all at the same time decide to sell or buy more bitcoins then they can manipulate the price of bitcoin. but i think it is just impossible.

1) bitcoin isnt anonymous
2) bitcoin isnt only a cryptocurrencies, bitcoin is a BIG community, bitcoin is a phylosophy, bitcoin is a faith and future hope without bankers

this is the bitcoin revolution

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Quote from: deisik on November 22, 2016, 05:11:06 AM

Quote from: sportis on November 22, 2016, 04:29:11 AM

So far the largest part of the bitcoins has been mined (15,998,175). So, I cannot understand why anyone should be worry if China has most mining pools. Maybe a reason to concern is the next or after the next halving where the cost to mine a bitcoin will be raised if at some point miners cooperate to raise the transaction fees too, so the usage of bitcoins to be prohibitive for most users especially if they use it for micropayments.

This is an interesting topic as such, even outside the question whether the Chinese control Bitcoin. Obviously, when all bitcoins are already mined, miners could only earn through the transaction fees (I hope this won't become a matter of dispute). Raising the fees above some optimal level will be counterproductive, just like raising taxes above a certain percentage in an economy would only lead to a decline of the amount of taxes collected (since producers start suffering losses and cut down production). In the same way, people will simply transact less with larger amounts per transaction, and miners profits instead of growing will be shrinking...

In this way, miners will be pretty much shooting themselves in the foot if they become too greedy

The issue becomes one of whether liquidity will flee to other coins, for which the transaction fees are lower. If you are interested in this problem, consider:

A logarithmic release currency avoids this problem by always having some coinbase reward (coinbase rewards drop far slower than the geometric series / halving of bitcoin) - and yet maintaining a hard cap on the total money supply.

deisik

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Quote from: sportis on November 22, 2016, 04:29:11 AM

So far the largest part of the bitcoins has been mined (15,998,175). So, I cannot understand why anyone should be worry if China has most mining pools. Maybe a reason to concern is the next or after the next halving where the cost to mine a bitcoin will be raised if at some point miners cooperate to raise the transaction fees too, so the usage of bitcoins to be prohibitive for most users especially if they use it for micropayments.

This is an interesting topic as such, even outside the question whether the Chinese control Bitcoin. Obviously, when all bitcoins are already mined, miners could only earn through the transaction fees (I hope this won't become a matter of dispute). Raising the fees above some optimal level will be counterproductive, just like raising taxes above a certain percentage in an economy would only lead to a decline of the amount of taxes collected (since producers start suffering losses and cut down production). In the same way, people will simply transact less with larger amounts per transaction, and miners profits instead of growing will be shrinking...

In this way, miners will be pretty much shooting themselves in the foot if they become too greedy

kiklo

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Quote from: sportis on November 22, 2016, 04:29:11 AM

So far the largest part of the bitcoins has been mined (15,998,175). So, I cannot understand why anyone should be worry if China has most mining pools. Maybe a reason to concern is the next or after the next halving where the cost to mine a bitcoin will be raised if at some point miners cooperate to raise the transaction fees too, so the usage of bitcoins to be prohibitive for most users especially if they use it for micropayments.

You should study what a 51% attack is, then you will understand why anyone or any country having over 51% is a problem.

http://www.btcpedia.com/bitcoin-51-attack/

Quote

If a miner gains 51% or more power, he is capable to:
   Reverse transactions that he sends while he’s in control.
   This has the potential to double-spend transactions that previously had already been seen in the block chain.
   Prevent some or all transactions from gaining any confirmations.
   Prevent some or all other miners from mining any valid blocks.

FYI:
BTC is already too expensive for the micropayments industry.

sportis

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So far the largest part of the bitcoins has been mined (15,998,175). So, I cannot understand why anyone should be worry if China has most mining pools. Maybe a reason to concern is the next or after the next halving where the cost to mine a bitcoin will be raised if at some point miners cooperate to raise the transaction fees too, so the usage of bitcoins to be prohibitive for most users especially if they use it for micropayments.

Harry Callahan

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Quote from: _Legendary_ on November 21, 2016, 10:14:52 PM

China is the biggest bitcoin mining in the world for right now, and the largest factors to infect about the price is China. If the exchanger market from China down, the price is also down. So I believe that China can controlling bitcoin price and stock.

i didnt know that china could infect the price of bitcoin Cheesy

. but the Chinese could influence the price of the coin since majority of the hashing power originates from china which means they have the biggest miners and so they could influence the price a bit but it all depends upon people purchasing the coins

arcanaaerobics

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Quote from: Liang_Kubur on November 20, 2016, 11:57:06 PM

I'm come from china, but I'm not sure that China can controlling Bitcoin. When I was in a public area, I never found the discussion about bitcoin. even now I still have not found the Bitcoin ATM, it seems this assumption is wrong.

I don't think that have a lot of ATMs in the world so it don't mean much.

Probably most bitcoins are with few people(big miners) and that's why you don't see too much people talking about however for sure China have a better adoption then others countries.

_Legendary_

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China is the biggest bitcoin mining in the world for right now, and the largest factors to infect about the price is China. If the exchanger market from China down, the price is also down. So I believe that China can controlling bitcoin price and stock.

marcus_of_augustus

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cheap, chinese-made bitcoins don't last as long and break if you use them too much Sad

kiklo

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Quote from: mirakal on November 21, 2016, 02:20:52 AM

Quote from: kiklo on November 21, 2016, 01:29:09 AM

Quote from: carlerha on November 21, 2016, 12:24:04 AM

in fact bitcoin is anonymous and no one know about the actual number of bitcoin users and their identity, so if the number of bitcoin users in china are more than the rest of the world, and they all at the same time decide to sell or buy more bitcoins then they can manipulate the price of bitcoin. but i think it is just impossible.

Blockchain is a Shared General Ledger , Hello
it is not anonymous, once your real name is tied to one address, they can track you from there.

Buy or sell any BTC on an exchange, then they got you.
Anyone that has ever does business with you, they got you.
Cross Referencing is some serious stuff, and 99.9% of the populace can't hide from it.

All Markets can be manipulated, if you have the leverage.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-14/markets-are-manipulated

https://www.corbettreport.com/how-the-markets-are-manipulated/

http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/markets-are-manipulated-so-get-out-now

http://www.businessinsider.com/criminals-are-manipulating-the-stock-market-and-regulators-cant-seem-to-stop-it-2015-8

Google markets are manipulated

After your read over 10 Million articles on it , you might realize not only is it possible , but happening every day.

Cool

Not really, we can still be anonymous because not all people are using static IP address. In some countries, they shared connections in prepaid Internet and with that kind of services, it's hard to trace who are using such.

Yes Really,
IP Address don't matter if they track your Bank Account you linked to buy or sell BTC on an exchange or a vendor you purchased something from gives them your home address. Tongue

FYI:
Since you clueless to fact dynamic IP are also kept track of , here is a fun fact for you ,
every ethernet & wireless adapter have a unique identifying physical address, that is tracked.
They know the machine you are using , every time you pop it on the internet, unless you spoof the physical address.
That is common knowledge , there are other things you have no idea about, use a computer there is no anon.
You want anon, don't use a computer.

mirakal

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Quote from: kiklo on November 21, 2016, 01:29:09 AM

Quote from: carlerha on November 21, 2016, 12:24:04 AM

in fact bitcoin is anonymous and no one know about the actual number of bitcoin users and their identity, so if the number of bitcoin users in china are more than the rest of the world, and they all at the same time decide to sell or buy more bitcoins then they can manipulate the price of bitcoin. but i think it is just impossible.

Blockchain is a Shared General Ledger , Hello
it is not anonymous, once your real name is tied to one address, they can track you from there.

Buy or sell any BTC on an exchange, then they got you.
Anyone that has ever does business with you, they got you.
Cross Referencing is some serious stuff, and 99.9% of the populace can't hide from it.

All Markets can be manipulated, if you have the leverage.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-14/markets-are-manipulated

https://www.corbettreport.com/how-the-markets-are-manipulated/

http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/markets-are-manipulated-so-get-out-now

http://www.businessinsider.com/criminals-are-manipulating-the-stock-market-and-regulators-cant-seem-to-stop-it-2015-8

Google markets are manipulated

After your read over 10 Million articles on it , you might realize not only is it possible , but happening every day.

Cool

Not really, we can still be anonymous because not all people are using static IP address. In some countries, they shared connections in prepaid Internet and with that kind of services, it's hard to trace who are using such.

kiklo

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Quote from: carlerha on November 21, 2016, 12:24:04 AM

in fact bitcoin is anonymous and no one know about the actual number of bitcoin users and their identity, so if the number of bitcoin users in china are more than the rest of the world, and they all at the same time decide to sell or buy more bitcoins then they can manipulate the price of bitcoin. but i think it is just impossible.

Blockchain is a Shared General Ledger , Hello
it is not anonymous, once your real name is tied to one address, they can track you from there.

Buy or sell any BTC on an exchange, then they got you.
Anyone that has ever does business with you, they got you.
Cross Referencing is some serious stuff, and 99.9% of the populace can't hide from it.

All Markets can be manipulated, if you have the leverage.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-14/markets-are-manipulated

https://www.corbettreport.com/how-the-markets-are-manipulated/

http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/markets-are-manipulated-so-get-out-now

http://www.businessinsider.com/criminals-are-manipulating-the-stock-market-and-regulators-cant-seem-to-stop-it-2015-8

Google markets are manipulated

After your read over 10 Million articles on it , you might realize not only is it possible , but happening every day.

Cool

carlerha

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: john2231 on November 20, 2016, 05:41:19 PM

Quote from: babo on November 20, 2016, 05:28:55 PM

More mining power is'nt equal to control bitcoin.. in my humble opinion.. who control code and community and early adopter? I think no one

Yeah agree no one can control bitcoin even they are have lots of bitcoin farm they are just mine on bitcoin not control it but they can control the price just to dump and pump. but i think they don't do that because they are expecting more price increase with bitcoin. and bitcoin is decentralize so that no one can control bitcoin..

No one really controls bitcoin but we do have big allotment and contribution for bitcoins economy. Because us, people who uses bitcoin and consumes it for real are the ones to make the fluctuation of bitcoins price to move. And of course those people who are holding and have mining power are also contributing such as China.

in fact bitcoin is anonymous and no one know about the actual number of bitcoin users and their identity, so if the number of bitcoin users in china are more than the rest of the world, and they all at the same time decide to sell or buy more bitcoins then they can manipulate the price of bitcoin. but i think it is just impossible.

Liang_Kubur

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I'm come from china, but I'm not sure that China can controlling Bitcoin. When I was in a public area, I never found the discussion about bitcoin. even now I still have not found the Bitcoin ATM, it seems this assumption is wrong.

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