Is CHINA CONTROLLING Bitcoin? - page 50.

deisik

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Quote from: jbreher on November 15, 2016, 01:01:12 PM

Summary:
China - 0.11 USD/kWh
Saudi Arabia - 0.07 USD/kWh (call it close to a ~1/3 discount w/respect to China?)
United States - 0.18 USD/kWh (call it close to a ~1/3 premium w/respect to China?)

Wikipedia shows results that are not conflicting, though in stating it as a range, it is hard to make any firm declarations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing
though clearly, the bottom of China's range (0.04 USD/kWh) is well in excess of the bottom of other districts' range (e.g., India at 0.001 USD/kWh).

Yes, being close to the assembly houses, those being close to the PCBA stuffers, and those being close to the semiconductor fabs are an advantage. But not an insurmountable one.

I'm just trying to point out that the insistence upon power costs being an intractable barrier to entry in the Bitcoin mining space is nothing but a canard.

I guess you would have a lot of pain in the ass if you were trying to mine Bitcoin in Saudi Arabia

Quote from: asuryan180 on November 15, 2016, 01:37:10 PM

Quote from: deisik on November 15, 2016, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: puremage111 on November 15, 2016, 05:11:01 AM

they can hoard it but not control, btc is decentralized, noone can control it, you could try to pump but not control

Mining is the primary source of new bitcoins entering the market. Controlling the offer side of the orderbooks essentially means that you can manipulate the price of Bitcoin in certain limits. If control over Bitcoin price is not control of Bitcoin itself, what would then count as control? If the Chinese miners can outright shut down Bitcoin should they decide so (or someone decides for them), would that pass as control?

What does control mean after all?

Well,it can be understood in many ways,but I don't think China controls BTC in the exact meaning of the word "control"-there may be regulations but I don't think that fully means control-and yeah most of the miners are in China but that doesn't mean anything really,it doesn't mean control,miners can be anywhere in the world and that won't affect BTC much really.

Chinese mining pools have a sort of exclusive veto over future updates to Bitcoin, since they most likely have over 51% of hashing power. I assume this is enough to say that they control Bitcoin. Besides, we don't really know how many individual miners from all over the world these pools actually consist of. I'm more inclined to think that these mining pools are in fact located in one place (a few places) and are represented by a few huge mining farms, not thousands of individual miners...

I don't mean to say that individual miners can't mine there, but the bulk of hashing power is still provided by these farms

asuryan180

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Quote from: deisik on November 15, 2016, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: puremage111 on November 15, 2016, 05:11:01 AM

they can hoard it but not control, btc is decentralized, noone can control it, you could try to pump but not control

Mining is the primary source of new bitcoins entering the market. Controlling the offer side of the orderbooks essentially means that you can manipulate the price of Bitcoin in certain limits. If control over Bitcoin price is not control of Bitcoin itself, what would then count as control? If the Chinese miners can outright shut down Bitcoin should they decide so (or someone decides for them), would that pass as control?

What does control mean after all?

Well,it can be understood in many ways,but I don't think China controls BTC in the exact meaning of the word "control"-there may be regulations but I don't think that fully means control-and yeah most of the miners are in China but that doesn't mean anything really,it doesn't mean control,miners can be anywhere in the world and that won't affect BTC much really.

jbreher

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Quote from: deisik on November 15, 2016, 05:10:26 AM

Quote from: jbreher on November 14, 2016, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: arransiv on November 13, 2016, 03:04:20 AM

The only way to find cheap electricity is moving to China ...

I'm getting awfully weary of this assertion being bandied about as gospel. All y'all need to check your facts. If cheap-ass electricity was an all-encomapssing criteria for miners, the bulk of hash power would be in Saudi Arabia

Could you please provide detailed statistic here? The data by the link in your post requires expensive subscription, while the image you attached is not informative. Did you check it yourself? Even if China is not the cheapest country in terms of electricity costs, it is a major producer of mining equipment, which might be another decisive factor in the story of Chinese mining. Also, there are different costs for different types of consumers...

For example, industrial vs home use

Sorry - if you google the words in the leaf of the URL, you can get past the paywall.

Summary:
China - 0.11 USD/kWh
Saudi Arabia - 0.07 USD/kWh (call it close to a ~1/3 discount w/respect to China?)
United States - 0.18 USD/kWh (call it close to a ~1/3 premium w/respect to China?)

Wikipedia shows results that are not conflicting, though in stating it as a range, it is hard to make any firm declarations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing
though clearly, the bottom of China's range (0.04 USD/kWh) is well in excess of the bottom of other districts' range (e.g., India at 0.001 USD/kWh).

Yes, being close to the assembly houses, those being close to the PCBA stuffers, and those being close to the semiconductor fabs are an advantage. But not an insurmountable one.

I'm just trying to point out that the insistence upon power costs being an intractable barrier to entry in the Bitcoin mining space is nothing but a canard.

muhcoins

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Quote from: puremage111 on November 15, 2016, 05:11:01 AM

they can hoard it but not control, btc is decentralized, noone can control it, you could try to pump but not control

Controling the hash is controling bitcoin.
they have a big prodution every day and they can "stop" the network(if china simple "turn off" bitcoin mining, we would be in big trouble).

deisik

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Quote from: puremage111 on November 15, 2016, 05:11:01 AM

they can hoard it but not control, btc is decentralized, noone can control it, you could try to pump but not control

Mining is the primary source of new bitcoins entering the market. Controlling the offer side of the orderbooks essentially means that you can manipulate the price of Bitcoin in certain limits. If control over Bitcoin price is not control of Bitcoin itself, what would then count as control? If the Chinese miners can outright shut down Bitcoin should they decide so (or someone decides for them), would that pass as control?

What does control mean after all?

puremage111

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they can hoard it but not control, btc is decentralized, noone can control it, you could try to pump but not control

deisik

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Quote from: jbreher on November 14, 2016, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: arransiv on November 13, 2016, 03:04:20 AM

The only way to find cheap electricity is moving to China ...

I'm getting awfully weary of this assertion being bandied about as gospel. All y'all need to check your facts. If cheap-ass electricity was an all-encomapssing criteria for miners, the bulk of hash power would be in Saudi Arabia

Could you please provide detailed statistic here? The data by the link in your post requires expensive subscription, while the image you attached is not informative. Did you check it yourself? Even if China is not the cheapest country in terms of electricity costs, it is a major producer of mining equipment, which might be another decisive factor in the story of Chinese mining. Also, there are different costs for different types of consumers...

For example, industrial vs home use

arcanaaerobics

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Quote from: The_prodigy on November 14, 2016, 10:37:55 PM

Quote from: somacoin on May 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM

People here have claimed that Bitcoin is in fact controlled and ruled by China, as mining is centralized by Chinese mining institutions.

Do you think that China is controlling/ruling bitcoin yes or no?

China has a big population when we are talking in population but in user i don't think that many people are using bitcoin in there country and yes we can say that china is really rich when it comes in gold and others needs and they have minings but i don't think so that china really controlling bitcoin and they have fully controlled of the price.

The real question here isn't about chinese citizens but about the chinese miners, we know they got a lot of power in the mining, so they can earn a lot of bitcoins and they can be a wale in the bitcoin, in that way they can manipulate the price selling or not the coins.

The_prodigy

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Quote from: somacoin on May 08, 2016, 04:06:03 PM

People here have claimed that Bitcoin is in fact controlled and ruled by China, as mining is centralized by Chinese mining institutions.

Do you think that China is controlling/ruling bitcoin yes or no?

China has a big population when we are talking in population but in user i don't think that many people are using bitcoin in there country and yes we can say that china is really rich when it comes in gold and others needs and they have minings but i don't think so that china really controlling bitcoin and they have fully controlled of the price.

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Quote from: rapazev on November 13, 2016, 02:02:40 PM

Quote from: hulla on November 13, 2016, 01:33:27 PM

That's not possible cos there is a chance of freedom in the world of bitcoin which mean the owner of wallet control his/her bitcoin and if I said China control bitcoin it simply because they put a lot of effort mining bitcoin which is the source of each sato which literally become what we call bitcoin.

i think you dont understand what 51% of hashpower means in a network...
the whole concept of decentralization falls apart(and i'm not even talking about the risks).

things are changing, china is trying to reduce bitcoin use there.. could be the end of this "china controlling bitcoin".

I guess I did misunderstood what you meant but currently as we speak it seems like you do believe China control bitcoin. What are the risk involve if China reduce bitcoin use there cos since they have the huge mining farm normal individual are unable to mine profitable and it could a chance normal individual

Attaman

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No china is not really controlling the bitcoin because it does not has any power on it, its only mining a lot because it has a lot of miners but that gives them not all the power..

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Quote from: arransiv on November 13, 2016, 03:04:20 AM

The only way to find cheap electricity is moving to China ...

I'm getting awfully weary of this assertion being bandied about as gospel. All y'all need to check your facts. If cheap-ass electricity was an all-encomapssing criteria for miners, the bulk of hash power would be in Saudi Arabia.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/477995/global-prices-of-electricity-by-select-country/">

http://www.statista.com/graphic/1/477995/global-prices-of-electricity-by-select-country.jpg" alt="Statistic: Electricity prices by country in 2015 (in U.S. dollars per kilowatt hour)* | Statista" style="width: 100%; height: auto !important; max-width:1000px;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;"/>
Find more statistics at https://www.statista.com">Statista

For that matter, how do you know it isn't?

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Quote from: kiklo on November 12, 2016, 07:34:51 PM

Actually because China Controls over 51% of the Mining, it does mean they control it.
Over 51% gives them the ability to accept or deny ANY BTC transaction.

Do you still have no idea how Bitcoin works? If 'China'* has 51% of the mining power, that means that 100% - 51% = 49% of it exists elsewhere. If any of that 49% finds a hash to a block containing the transaction that 'China' 'denied' in a timely manner, that particular transaction becomes part of the blockchain record.

*Exactly how does one obtain monolithic control in a nation with over a billion people? Who would make the decision to 'deny'? What does that decision making process look like, and which agencies are involved? How would such a decision be communicated? How would it be enforced? How would non-Chinese transactions be identified?

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Quote from: foxkyu on November 14, 2016, 06:31:34 AM

Just because the biggest bitcoin 'mining farm' is in china doesn't meant china can controlling bitcoin.

But yes, china has the cheap electricity cost, that's why they have the 'power' about bitcoin, not controlling bitcoin.

As we know bitcoin is decentralisation, which means no one or no organisation or no country can controlling bitcoin.

These are empty words, there is no absolute decentralization. The Blockchain itself is an example of utmost centralization since there can be just one authentic instance of it. Perhaps, only total chaos comes close enough to the idea of absolute decentralization, though even this is debatable. The homespun truth is that right now Bitcoin mining is heavily centralized. Whether this would count as control over Bitcoin is debatable too, but this doesn't in the least undermine the possibility of the Chinese miners to essentially shut down Bitcoin if they ever choose so...

If you don't see that, you'd better open your eyes

HateEU

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No I think that Europe and America is controling bitcoin not China because Europe is very powerful place which is controlling the world and it wil control it forever in life.

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Quote from: RGBKey on November 13, 2016, 01:29:41 AM

Popping in here to throw in my two bits, I definitely think that if we plan to compete with China in mining power, we need to start finding our own cheap electricity. Until we have cheap electricity, we won't have mining in other places.

Of course, that is the main reason why china is almost controlling the highest proportion of mining today because they have cheap source of electricity in which almost all countries of the world lack. If any country or invidual can come up with a source of electricity which is cheaper than china then they can be able to overtake china in that aspect.

foxkyu

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Just because the biggest bitcoin 'mining farm' is in china doesn't meant china can controlling bitcoin.

But yes, china has the cheap electricity cost, that's why they have the 'power' about bitcoin, not controlling bitcoin.

As we know bitcoin is decentralisation, which means no one or no organisation or no country can controlling bitcoin.

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Quote from: deisik on November 14, 2016, 02:13:21 AM

I tend to disagree with that somewhat. Slave labor is not enough, since if it were, we would still be living in slavery. It is evident that you refer to slavery metaphorically, but real slavery ended not because there were no more slaves left, but because their labor was ineffective compared with hired workers and free farmers. China just happens to have huge population and therefore high competition on the labor market.

It's a race to the bottom, that's for sure. I'm all for free market capitalism and free enterprise, but what you have in China is a bizarre mix of Communism and Social Darwinism: you have the elites at the apex of the pyramid with all the slaves at the bottom. It's modern day slavery, in the sense that you work 10/12 hours a day chained to a work desk for a pittance of a salary. If that isn't slavery, I don't know what is.

But you're right, multinationals are slowly moving to other countries with better access to slave labor. Will the same thing happen with Bitcoin? If miners start exploring other options and diversifying to the Philippines or Bangladesh, this might actually be a good thing

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Quote from: De Selby on November 14, 2016, 12:26:48 AM

You can't compete with China. Their whole economy is based on the concept of slave labor. Developed, democratic countries like the US with a decent standard of living can never compete against dystopian shitholes like China

I tend to disagree with that somewhat. Slave labor is not enough, since if it were, we would still be living in slavery. It is evident that you refer to slavery metaphorically, but real slavery ended not because there were no more slaves left, but because their labor was ineffective compared with hired workers and free farmers. China just happens to have huge population and therefore high competition on the labor market. Then again, with growing prosperity and overall well-being, this won't last forever...

In fact, many international businesses are already moving from mainland China into countries with yet cheaper labor (Vietnam, Philippines, etc)

Mzie

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China might not be directly controlling Bitcoin, however they have a very huge effect on on Bitcoin Markets. The large scale Bitcoin miners combining their hash power means something and its effect cannot be ignored.

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