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Topic: Is China fucking with us so they can get cheap coins? (Read 3818 times)

seriouscoin

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Quote from: Hunterbunter on December 18, 2013, 08:07:00 PM

I see two possible scenarios.

The first is that the OP is correct and the market is being manipulated down via rumours so the chinese can buy up big. They're very smart when it comes to this sort of thing, and play the long game, so I wouldn't put this in the realm of impossiblity.

The second is that the OP is incorrect and they genuinely believe they want to remain in control and protect their national currency. In this scenario, prices return to pre-china (ish) levels, and the rest of the world continues to approve of bitcoins (eg germany), and continue buying and using them, until a point where china has no choice but to realize they made a mistake.

When you said "the chinese" you meant the government and not its ppl did you?

Because.....it wouldnt make any sense other wise.

The CCP only cares about its State and not its ppl ....

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Quote from: R2Pleasent on December 18, 2013, 11:46:13 AM

BTC China was a startup with amazing promise. It was probably valued at 2-3 Billion USD, or more, and growing exponentially, before this mess with government control. That means that the exchange itself was comparable in value to the entire payment system. To even suggest that such a valuable company would jeopardize its existence simply to grab coins at a cheap price is lunacy.

The incentives don't add up. This would be like suggesting Facebook crashes its own stock to buy them back at a cheaper price.

I didn't suggest BTC China was complicit. I suggested Baidu and some other elite are.

Quote from: David Rabahy on December 18, 2013, 05:20:54 PM

If a truly free market can be manipulated by rumors then so be it.

Astute. The masses must always be wrong.

Hunterbunter

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 1000

I see two possible scenarios.

The first is that the OP is correct and the market is being manipulated down via rumours so the chinese can buy up big. They're very smart when it comes to this sort of thing, and play the long game, so I wouldn't put this in the realm of impossiblity.

The second is that the OP is incorrect and they genuinely believe they want to remain in control and protect their national currency. In this scenario, prices return to pre-china (ish) levels, and the rest of the world continues to approve of bitcoins (eg germany), and continue buying and using them, until a point where china has no choice but to realize they made a mistake.

Tzupy

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1094

Something is fishy about China IMO: the volume of today's drop seems too low for the third sub-wave of wave C.
I'm not buying until I'm sure that the market has hit the very bottom, and at least for China, I don't think it has yet.

David Rabahy

hero member

Activity: 709

Merit: 503

If a truly free market can be manipulated by rumors then so be it. It seems like modern life has created folks that can't take the heat anymore. Grow a backbone. Relax and enjoy the ride; or panic if you prefer. It's a free market, unlike fiat which can be price-fixed.

Can China or anyone for that matter manipulate the exchange rates of Bitcoin? Heck, I know for a fact that I can personally. All I have to do is enter a buy or a sell (or both) and the exchange rates will tend to be attracted. This should come as no surprise.

If you are a believer then be clear what you believe in. If China denies/resists what you believe in then they just miss out *if* you turn out to be right.

Bitcoin is "An idea whose time has come!" http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Victor_Hugo

accord01

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: BitChick on December 18, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

I had already thought about this. Maybe the manipulation was not done entirely on purpose though. It seemed that China was worried about banks getting involved with BTC which is risky. We cannot deny that! So China put some rules into place. But now they see an opportunity perhaps and realize that they should not be so restrictive, maybe just put more regulation in place like the US so that they can see who is buying coins and then tax them or whatever they need to do. So they "release" news in a few weeks giving more freedom back to the people. In the mean time does the goverment buy coins? That I do not know.

Regardless, I am pleasantly surprised that in spite of all this crappy news BTC has managed to stay in the $500-$600 range. I could have been worse. Wink

Wink

Also, China is only one country in all of this. Granted, it has been the biggest player, but there are more players in the game.

It did get worse. And it will get even more bad as more countries want to protect their citizens and/or despise bitcoin and put some lids on the cryptocurrency. Denmark is one of them.

BitChick

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1001

I had already thought about this. Maybe the manipulation was not done entirely on purpose though. It seemed that China was worried about banks getting involved with BTC which is risky. We cannot deny that! So China put some rules into place. But now they see an opportunity perhaps and realize that they should not be so restrictive, maybe just put more regulation in place like the US so that they can see who is buying coins and then tax them or whatever they need to do. So they "release" news in a few weeks giving more freedom back to the people. In the mean time does the goverment buy coins? That I do not know.

Regardless, I am pleasantly surprised that in spite of all this crappy news BTC has managed to stay in the $500-$600 range. I could have been worse. Wink

Wink

Also, China is only one country in all of this. Granted, it has been the biggest player, but there are more players in the game.

po1992one

full member

Activity: 133

Merit: 100

Quote from: accord01 on December 18, 2013, 05:03:53 PM

I'm not even going to read the responses. This is just naive thinking. Lol. China does not CARE about making a bit of chump change for this and all the hassle of liquidating it. Yeah the government is going to use bitstamp to liqudate? how about local bitcoins?

They bought hold nearly 3/4 of trillion (?) USD. How about their trillion dollar markets that govt has control over? and there going to waste time over bitcoins? lol @ this naive thinking.

Do not underestimate Chinese, every bit helps their economy

accord01

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

I'm not even going to read the responses. This is just naive thinking. Lol. China does not CARE about making a bit of chump change for this and all the hassle of liquidating it. Yeah the government is going to use bitstamp to liqudate? how about local bitcoins?

They bought hold nearly 3/4 of trillion (?) USD. How about their trillion dollar markets that govt has control over? and there going to waste time over bitcoins? lol @ this naive thinking.

vtlaloc

newbie

Activity: 8

Merit: 0

Quote from: Anon136 on December 18, 2013, 04:31:32 PM

Quote from: vtlaloc on December 18, 2013, 03:56:13 PM

Quote from: Bobsurplus on December 18, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

I think its very possible that all this news out of china is just so the Chinese government can scoop up all the coins for cheap and then just by changing there minds drive the price back up to the moon.

Think about it, all they have to do is turn around and say, "we made a mistake, bitcoin is great, you can all do business in it"

Man, what a scam!

Yes! the worlds second largest economy, made this announcement so then can steal the bread crumbs from your pocket. Because a country with 8.2 trillion in GDP and 1.3 trillion in held US debt needs to lower the prices of bitcoins in order to be able to buy some.

I'm not saying the price of bitcoins wont go back up, I'm saying that statements like this smell of panic.

see this is exactly what im talking about. any individual politician doesn't have direct access to the balance sheet of the state. they dont own the states balance sheet to the same extent that you and i own the funds on our banks balance sheet. even in the states an extremely competent politician may accumulate 100million dollars by the end of his career. this is pennies compared to the total tax revenues.

China may have a balance sheet of how ever many trillions of dollars but the individual politicians cant just go out and spend that on a yaht for themselves. What politicians do is throw around the weight of the states balance sheet in exchange for kickbacks. They may grant some corporation a billion dollars worth of benefits for a 1 million dollar kickback. Or they may use the leverage of the central bank to pump and dump the bitcoin market while getting their own PERSONAL finances in and out at the tops and bottoms.

This is a much more plausible argument than the OP.

Consider china for a moment: Strong capital controls, strong censorship of speech, vast resources dedicated to tracking personal activity, brooding civil unrest (in part do to corruption scandals). China's main objective in the next few decades is to manage it's social transformation, and they believe they can do it with government control; now do you think china would see bitcoins as a help or a hindrance to achieve this goals? lets face it there isn't a whole lot about bitcoins for the Chinese government to like.

Now its entirely possible for individuals within the government to act in self interest (and enrich themselves while bucking the party line) however surly there are more efficient and less public ways to do that (remember being a corruption sacrificial lamb in china is no joke).

I think the most probable explanation is that this is something China doesn't understand and cant control, thus they don't like it (don't blame them i wouldn't either in their position).

When people act rationally a conspiracy is unnecessary in order to explain their behavior.

Anon136

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

Quote from: vtlaloc on December 18, 2013, 03:56:13 PM

Quote from: Bobsurplus on December 18, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

I think its very possible that all this news out of china is just so the Chinese government can scoop up all the coins for cheap and then just by changing there minds drive the price back up to the moon.

Think about it, all they have to do is turn around and say, "we made a mistake, bitcoin is great, you can all do business in it"

Man, what a scam!

Yes! the worlds second largest economy, made this announcement so then can steal the bread crumbs from your pocket. Because a country with 8.2 trillion in GDP and 1.3 trillion in held US debt needs to lower the prices of bitcoins in order to be able to buy some.

I'm not saying the price of bitcoins wont go back up, I'm saying that statements like this smell of panic.

see this is exactly what im talking about. any individual politician doesn't have direct access to the balance sheet of the state. they dont own the states balance sheet to the same extent that you and i own the funds on our banks balance sheet. even in the states an extremely competent politician may accumulate 100million dollars by the end of his career. this is pennies compared to the total tax revenues.

China may have a balance sheet of how ever many trillions of dollars but the individual politicians cant just go out and spend that on a yaht for themselves. What politicians do is throw around the weight of the states balance sheet in exchange for kickbacks. They may grant some corporation a billion dollars worth of benefits for a 1 million dollar kickback. Or they may use the leverage of the central bank to pump and dump the bitcoin market while getting their own PERSONAL finances in and out at the tops and bottoms.

vtlaloc

newbie

Activity: 8

Merit: 0

Quote from: Bobsurplus on December 18, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

I think its very possible that all this news out of china is just so the Chinese government can scoop up all the coins for cheap and then just by changing there minds drive the price back up to the moon.

Think about it, all they have to do is turn around and say, "we made a mistake, bitcoin is great, you can all do business in it"

Man, what a scam!

Yes! the worlds second largest economy, made this announcement so then can steal the bread crumbs from your pocket. Because a country with 8.2 trillion in GDP and 1.3 trillion in held US debt needs to lower the prices of bitcoins in order to be able to buy some.

I'm not saying the price of bitcoins wont go back up, I'm saying that statements like this smell of panic.

Anon136

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

Quote from: Bobsurplus on December 18, 2013, 11:04:45 AM

I think its very possible that all this news out of china is just so the Chinese government can scoop up all the coins for cheap and then just by changing there minds drive the price back up to the moon.

Think about it, all they have to do is turn around and say, "we made a mistake, bitcoin is great, you can all do business in it"

Man, what a scam!

i think this is very possible if not down right likely. though i don't think its the government acting as any sort of collective whole for the good of the institution as a whole. As in the profits are probably not going to wind up on the states balance sheet. This is individual actors with political leverage leaning on the levers of the state for personal gain.

Notanon

sr. member

Activity: 388

Merit: 250

http://fiatleak.com/

Looks like they are buying coins cheap while they can.

tondaS

full member

Activity: 122

Merit: 100

Quote from: dontek on December 18, 2013, 01:59:31 PM

Never under-estimate China. EVER.

I have said, and still stand by my gut, that this is purpose driven manipulation.

It's my opinion that right now China is throwing out the bait and the get-rich-quick-wannabes are eating it up left and right.

China is KNOWN for manipulation and propaganda.

I believe that rumours and the talk coming out of China are nothing more than a coordinated effort by the Chinese Government, Banks and Big Businesses. Maybe I am wrong, but guessing we will see in the next few weeks or months.

Drive the price down by spreading rumours...the "Big Boys" come in and scoop up a bunch of coins...wait a few weeks, then come out with an OFFICIAL press release that completely contradicts the "rumours".

I dont need this conspiracy to understand Im buying cheap Bitcoins now

dontek

full member

Activity: 129

Merit: 100

Quote from: vokain on December 18, 2013, 02:17:08 PM

The news gives you the news someone wants you want to hear

The 50 Cent party.

And no, that's not a bunch of rapper groupies.

vokain

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 1834

Merit: 1019

The news gives you the news someone wants you want to hear

SuperHakka

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: Bobsurplus on December 18, 2013, 12:08:36 PM

Listen here lucky, I've made more money since oct 2012 till now then I have in my entire 30 years on this earth.

Dude that explains a lot. being 30 years old, unless you were trading when you were 16, you have not experienced first hand what a bubble pop feels like and the dips and bounces that occur immediately afterwards. youse in for an experience har har.

Raize

donator

Activity: 1419

Merit: 1015

Quote from: R2Pleasent on December 18, 2013, 11:46:13 AM

The incentives don't add up. This would be like suggesting Facebook crashes its own stock to buy them back at a cheaper price.

While I agree with your point as a whole, penny stocks do a form of this all the time. They issue new shares to sell stock till the price falls to some ridiculously low point, then sell their shell company for $50-100k to some new schmuck that does a reverse split & ticker name change, then pumps and dumps his own stock in the same fashion, always issuing more outstanding shares. They get away with it because of the name and ticker changes, despite their shell company having lost billions of shares over time.

This is why I quit trading Pink Sheets, despite having mixed success in the early 00s. Commodities were easier to read and came with less "inflation".

I suspect that there are competing elements within China over Bitcoin regulation, much like here in the US. My guess though is that it has less to do with money laundering (like in the US) and more to do with who gets to regulate it.

dontek

full member

Activity: 129

Merit: 100

Never under-estimate China. EVER.

I have said, and still stand by my gut, that this is purpose driven manipulation.

It's my opinion that right now China is throwing out the bait and the get-rich-quick-wannabes are eating it up left and right.

China is KNOWN for manipulation and propaganda.

I believe that rumours and the talk coming out of China are nothing more than a coordinated effort by the Chinese Government, Banks and Big Businesses. Maybe I am wrong, but guessing we will see in the next few weeks or months.

Drive the price down by spreading rumours...the "Big Boys" come in and scoop up a bunch of coins...wait a few weeks, then come out with an OFFICIAL press release that completely contradicts the "rumours".

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