Topic: Is it swell to stamp bitcoin seed Phrase on Titanium Plates? (Read 699 times)

All things can be lost or damaged or destroyed physically or digitally and because of many risks. It's the same for wallet back up methods that are all damageable but different methods will have different levels of security and survival against damaging threats.

Paper is vulnerable with many threats like water, fire, acid and more, metal/ titanium plates are better against these threats but there are catastrophes that can destroy all including wallet backups like massive powerful explosions from bombs, nuclear bombs, earthquakes, tsunamis. When these catastrophes come, we have bigger priority than wallets and need to keep ourselves alive first.

With available different back up methods, we can use some of them for our wallet backups. By making different backups with different methods, and storing these backups at different locations, we have better preparations against unwanted events and increase chance to always have accessible and usable backups.

They definitely differ. Come on, your mnemonic phrase written down on a piece of paper is certainly less secure than if it's stamped on a titanium plate.

You're missing the point if you argue that any backup could be stolen whether it's on a titanium plate or a piece of paper. That's not the point. The point is that it's better if your backup can stand the test of time and other external factors or loss vectors. There are many loss vectors that should be taken into account, not just stealing or negligence or laziness or whatever.

The reason why there's innovation in seed storage devices is to make sure your backup lasts despite a number of negating factors.

Anyway, Jameson Lopp's reviews might be of help.

Some people think stamping the seed phrase into titanium is a great idea but I don't see any difference from using steel or any metal.

You are right, there is nothing wrong with whatever way you store your seeds as long as we can keep them safe and no one knows about it. Whether we choose paper, steel or titanium to stamp seeds will depend on each person's preferences and needs, I don't see any big difference between them. If we use titanium but others can easily find it or we don't preserve it well and lose it, what's the point of using titanium?

Storing seed phrases used to be a headache for many people when they first started, but now it's not so important anymore. Everyone has their own safety methods and they know what works best for them.

Actually, there is nothing wrong with whatever way you store your seeds, with paper or even the titanium that you mentioned, as long as no one knows the meaning of your writing, it will be safe, with titanium, it is actually impossible to lose them if they are not stolen or thrown away, unlike paper or Google Drive.

Writing or printing bitcoin wallet phrases on titanium is a great idea, bro. Because as you explained, titanium is resistant to fire and water. So you can be sure that the wallet phrase we wrote will remain safe even if it is exposed to water or fire. But even so, to be even safer, I think the phrase wallet can be written in various places, such as on paper, on the computer, and also on the cellphone. So, if for example the phrase wallet is only written on one material/media, in my opinion it could be said to be unsafe even though it is written on titanium. Because if we talk in a further direction, for example a natural disaster such as a flood or landslide occurs. Of course, even titanium is still unsafe. Because it is possible that the titanium containing the wallet phrase was carried away by a flood or buried in the ground and of course has the potential to be lost. So, to minimize this, it would certainly be safer to write our wallet phrases on several components and store them in different places. So even if something undesirable happens, it is certain that the wallet phrase we have will remain safe. Apart from that, just in case, checking our wallet phrase after writing it down is something that must be done. This aims to minimize any errors that might occur when writing the wallet phrase. So by checking the wallet phrase after it has been written, we will know if there is an error and we can immediately change it.

Nothing is absolutely safe and nothing lasts forever on Earth. All will be destroyed one way or another, sooner or later.

No wallet back up method has no weakness and no backup will last forever. No location will be safe forever so make sure you have different  back up methods to use, and have different wallet backups to use, as well as make sure you store your wallet backups at different locations.

Beyond that, make sure you let at least one person who you love most and believe most, to inform them where you store your wallet backups, and teach them how to use the backup for wallet recovery.

Of course if you trust no one, has no one to inherit your bitcoin, you don't have to do this step; though if you have such person, let's make sure that person will be able to inherit your bitcoin if you pass away.

How to set up Bitcoin inheritance with different methods. Going with non custodial method is safest in my opinion.

Online or offline storage, do we use paper, steel or titanium for storage...is there any method that is absolutely safe? Every storage method has its pros and cons, no method is perfect enough to be able to withstand every risk in this world. So in my opinion, let's use the method that best suits our situation and I believe that is the best solution instead of following other people's ideas when they don't suit us.

Using titanium to stamp the seed phrase isn't bad either but I find it unnecessary and just adds cost instead of giving us more security . As some have said: the safety of the seed phrase will depend on its privacy to others and being kept in the safest place, not just on the type of metal we use .

Then let's start buying some titanium plate then, hahaha.

One thing is missing I believe, while the titanium plate can withstand fire and other natural disaster, we have to make sure we don't lose it, because it is possible that after a natural disaster occurs suddenly you can still lose the plate, maybe you forget to take them along while running for your life or in the midst of surviving that disaster you misplaced the plate.

This is inevitable as we are all human, anything can happen, imagine a big hurricane is in sight and you are miles away from home, maybe at work and you kept this  titanium plate somewhere in your house, the nature disaster could have struck hard before you get home, and that's it, now you have to start going through all dirt and shits in your street looking for a plate.

The sad part is someone can get to it first before you, and since the words are still intact you can lose all your Bitcoin, sometimes when I think about this world, the unfair part is the most possible outcome of everything, always be ready.

Securing seed phrase is the biggest task of hodling Bitcoin because the safety of your coins depends on it. Whether the seed phrase is written on pieces of papers, engraved on titanium plates or steel plates, hiding it in secured locations is the most important thing. Engraving it on titanium will guide it against natural and man made disasters but it can be at risk of another person finding it before you do. Anybody that's into cryptocurrency will immediately know that it's seed phrase and can steal your coins. I think that the most important thing no matter the method that you choose to hide your seed phrase is to secure it in more than one location.

It can also be stored in a capsule like necklace if you want to have it on yourself all the time. I think no one will suspect of it containing seed phrase although stamping the seed phrase to a metal is definitely much more effective against disaster but what others suggested like having more than one backup in different locations is what I definitely want to do. Anyway, people have different ideas and ways to create a backup of the seed phrase.

The important thing during securing your seed is that it shouldn't be lost anyway or touched by an unathorized person. It's good if your seed could be written on a titanium plate. But it should be done only by you, if not, then it won't be secure anymore. Otherwise, it would be like you print a paper with seeds from a computer shop. However, we can keep secure paper seed in multiple secure places. In case one is lost or damaged, another should be secured. Just need to make sure seeds are safe from any other person. 

Titanium is hands down the best metal material you can get for seed phrase backup, but stainless steel washers will also do the job just fine.
If you want to check testing of different metal backup solutions I suggest checking out Jameson Lopp website with reviews.
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

People have different ways to back up wallets and they're free to pick methods that are best for them.

The most common mistake in thinking and practice of people, in wallet backups, is they believe that this method is best and think that if they back up wallet with this best method, their wallet backup will be safe, and their bitcoin will be safe completely.

Let's analyze what's wrong here.

For sake of safety of your wallet backups and your bitcoins, you must have usable backups in catastrophe. As most as possible, at the end you need an usable backup and if you have it, your bitcoin is safe.

Return to different wallet back up methods, there are disadvantages and threats that can damage those backups to conditions of unusable or destroy backups completely. To avoid such catastrophe, you need multiple back up methods, and need to store backups in different locations. Because catastrophe is very unlikely to happen everywhere in a nation or everywhere on Earth.

This is a new information to me despite Charls-Tim said it's an old news that has been discussed before. it's very important to have a well secured way of keeping our seed phrase to avoid unforseen circumstances like flood and Fire outbreak. it may not be total safe because it's nature make it easy to hack, but we would apply with caution. So  For security reasons, on no account should someone allow another person to punch or inscript this words for him on the titanium plate. Because allowing another person to do it for you is still subjected to insecurity expecially if the person in question knows about seed phrase.

It's essential to try and do it yourself, you are totally right.
It's not that hard to try out.

People have to think of how they store their backups in metal plate forms before buying these plates for their backups. I agree with you that at the end, how backups are stored safely and secretly to keep them safely from damaging threats like water, fire, acid, ... and out of curious and greed eyes matters.

Backups can be made in any format, digital, physical, paper, plate, whatever but if you fail to secure your backups and let it destroyed or stolen, you lose your bitcoin.

It's a good advice and for further advice, I recommend

How to back up a seed phrase. Newbies need to read it till the end and pay their attention on note that has an important reminder, test your back up.

I mean what matters the most is the privacy of your seed phrase. If you get it stamped in a titanium plate and still it's accessible by anyone in your family or work place, it's waste of money.
What I suggest is to have multiple backups, this way you will have nothing to worry about but it also brings the first point (privacy) a void. Just make sure to keep it safe and Titanium plates or stainless steel ones are always better than paper.

Of course nobody is letting anybody do that, with the aid of appropriate tools—the stamping is childsplay. I saw photos of kids trying it out, the predicted time for stamping all the phrases is just about 15-30 minutes. Isn't it healthy to sweat over securing your hard earned bitcoin?

I have never used titanium to stamp seed phrases but I don't think it is so expensive that people should hesitate to spend the money. I agree with pooya87, I also find it overkill so not many people use it. I think this choice has more to do with people's preferences and aesthetics than they focus on safety and price. Because steel is also good enough to give us the best level of safety, not inferior to materials like titanium.

Also, as some people have mentioned. In addition to choosing a good material to stamp your seed phrase, it is equally important to have multiple backups and keep them in different locations in case of unexpected incidents.

I have done this many times for various Trezor's and Ledgers on 5mm thick Stainless Steel.

Using either Titanium or Stainless Steel trumps any other method of seed phrase storage
like paper or digitally. Personally I think Titanium is just an added expense, Stainless Steel
is sufficient enough.

What you will need though is:
Titanium or Stainless Steel plate
A means of cutting to a manageable size like an angke grinder
A scribe to mark out a grid for your words
A metal stamp kit with heavy hammer
A Cobalt drill bit and drill for mounting holes
Patience

Although its a bit involved to create a plate like this I wouldnt risk storing my
seeds solely on paper or on USB.

It is an overkill in my opinion. The chances of your metal plate being exposed to such extreme environments is almost zero so why go with Titanium when there is simple Stainless Steel? It wouldn't cost as much either, you may even be able to acquire a small Steel plate for free from a workshop or something (the small parts they throw away when they cut the plates into small pieces) which is more than enough for this purpose.
Something like AISI 304 can be found very easily.

unless you are the one who is going to stamp the seed phrase on the titanium plate, isn't it a security risk that someone(the person who'll stamp the seed phrase on the titanium plate) will know your seed phrase? I mean it looks cool and sturdy but I can't stop thinking about that.

That's a brilliant idea, and in addition to that, I would have love to say that excluding titles while inscribing the 12 words seed phrases on the titanium plates or stainless steel will provide a higher security of our funds if eventually it happens to get into the wrong hand, such as "Bitcoin Wallet Seed Phrase" or "Trust/Electrum or BlueWallet Seed Phrase". Because inasmuch as this has proven to be a lasting alternative to paper seed phrase storage, it's always good to arrange it In a manner only you can understand, that is, either in ascending or descending order.

The use of this natural metal is not a bad idea as long as part of its inclusive property by nature is to withstand corrosion, heat and any other minor challenges that could hasten up its damage, the use of washers or stainless-steel as discussed from this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/securing-your-seed-phrase-with-washers-5389446 is never a bad idea as well, because they can withstand any physical damage, however, the use of this materials should never be forgotten that we have to secure them in a more safety place, where we are going to have access to it alone.

Engraving the seed phrase on a metallic plate like titanium or steel is far more better and safer than having it on a piece of paper which can be easily washed off by flood or burnt by fire. I may be wrong but the reason I think most people don't go for this method is because of the cost of acquiring one. But for someone who has a good amount of assets or who live in an environment that's prevalent to natural disaster, should be able to part ways with few dollars and get a metallic plate that can keep his or her crypto assets very safe.

Even though the probability is low, this can't be discounted. Sometimes life events are very surprising and an seed phrase lost during a natural disaster may accidentally end up not under a pile of garbage, rubble, dirt or ash, but close to the surface and catch someone's eye.

Nothing disappears forever. This seed phrase, even under a layer of water and a pile of garbage, can eventually be found by other people, just like dinosaur remains or other archaeological finds are now found. But by that time, you will not care much. Moreover, having lost the seed phrase during a natural disaster, at that moment you will no longer be interested in whether someone will find this seed phrase, because you have lost it. Forever.

Therefore, backups will never be superfluous.

Or better yet, get a tattoo with the seed phrase.

You shouldn't try to remember it, after all, it's better to use other methods of recording the seed phrase on hard media, and not on something as fragile as human memory.

Preserving the seed phrase on a titanium plate would keep it safe from immersion in fire, but keeping it safe from human access would be a bit more difficult because it's a metallic substance that has to be hidden otherwise people could access it anyway. But wallet password written on paper is not safe as it will be destroyed by water and burned in fire but it is very safe from human access. I don't write my wallet passphrase on anything made of platinum or titanium metal I write my wallet passphrase in a notebook but in a very secret place where no one but me can access it.

The emphasis is not only on the fact that such a thing should be hidden, but also on the fact that it should be hidden in a place where no one else will find it. If you hide your backup in such a way that it is easy for you to find it, be sure that it will be just as easy for someone else who might be looking for it to find it. First of all, I think of thieves who can break into everyone's home, but also family members or friends who sometimes surprise us with their moves.

Behind the TV or AC is a bad idea for me personally, but if it seems good enough to you, it's still your decision

This is true but you'll never know what some other guys might do after the flooding. I've seen people that do some magnetic activities under the rivers or streams and some do dive under the seas and get anything that they can get there.

So, that's one risk but I'm sure that most of us are wise enough to consider things like this of what we're trying to do.

I think memorizing is the last resort but this is good if you've got some good memory there. Just do any backup that you can do and keep it stored in a very safe place.

While it is a possibility, it is also very remote after a natural disaster someone will pickup those seed phrase randomly and claim the money which is stored in a hardware wallet, for example.
In the case of flooding, it would also good to remember that seeds engraved on metallic plates would sink directly to the bottom of the river and miss forever, rather than being easily retrieved by some random person (not even mentioning the amount of rubble and junk there would be after a flood).

In the case the metallic plate gets lost and we get through the natural disaster it is also a good option to memorize the seed phrase as an emergency way of recovery. Depending whom you ask, it would make the whole situation better or worse.

Each storage method has its own advantages and disadvantages, no method is the safest. First, you need to consider your circumstances such as the geographical location where you live, the security situation...to choose the most suitable method.

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue and everyone has their own methods and choices. For example, I store them on paper and for many years I have been happy with this method. I don't think I need to change this method even though many people say it's not safe because it's easy to burn, water damage...but it's been almost 8 years and I'm fine.

But as Charles-Tim said: always have 2 or 3 different backups stored in different locations. This will help you be more proactive in storing your phrases.

If by accident someone has picked these titanium plates elsewhere after a flood or any disaster and is aware of crypto recovery seeds/phrases.

Then, that's already the risk that someone will have to accept. It's good but you need to keep it intact to the areas where you'd keep them.

It's a good way to embed your seed phrases but mind you that there's also a risk on it once you've misplaced it.

if it's just about mediums of securing your seed phrase, thier are a lot of creative ways to go about it that's safe and more convenience. Even when you keep your seed phrase in a titanium plate, should it get missing or gets into a wrong hand, you've exposed your funds through that means. Just copying the seed phrase and duplicating  it into different forms and keeping it secured in different locations can still secure your seed phrase.

There are several ways to keep your seed phrase secured and I feel that you don't need to follow a set out role when it comes to this. Iether you're securing it on paper or through whatever medium you're using, it should be what you're certain you won't lose it, misplace it or allow it to get into a wrong hand.

Hiding it shouldn't be a complex thing to do, there are simple places in every room to hide such materials. Example; behind the TV or AC. Regrettably, people take it as far as placing their seed phrase in a location that their brain may not remember in future. The risk is always there, but it's better to be kept in a simple manner, than hiding it from other people's eyes and eventually forget where we kept it. If it's hidden in your bedroom, for instance, when people wants to see you, they'll have to wait in the sitting room. It'll help to keep the back up phrase out of sight.

I don't see why it wouldn't be good to make a backup in this way, although you should be careful and choose only those metal tiles that have been tested to be resistant to all possible threats such as high temperatures, water, chemicals and pressure resistance. As we could see in the tests made by Jameson Lopp (@tranthidung posted link), some of these solutions turned out to be completely useless to the extent that the information on them was destroyed beyond recognition due to some external influence.

Of course, even if we have the best material for such a backup, the question still remains of how best to store such a backup to ensure that someone other than us accidentally or intentionally finds it, but also that the owner can remember it after x years - because it would really be a tragedy to store something like that and then one day we can't find it.

This would be good to have as a backup wallet. I wouldn't keep my funds stored on this 100% of the time, but if I needed to bounce and hide the seed somewhere it would be useful.

You honestly dont need to go this far. I knew someone who basically bought some plates and hammered his seed on to some steel and hid it inside his house somewhere. I assumed it was overkill. But if you are the only one who knows where it is and you dont brag to your friends who might go looking for it then you are good.

But like the few replies above, I think you need to keep it simple. And you oversimply with stuff like this you risk someone finding the seed phrase and then there is no point really. Just keep it in at least 2 places and maybe try and memorize some of the words, if its 12 words then you can easily memorize it.

By plain text you meant not having it written as it is to maybe create decoy as some people will say, although flaunting your seed phrase is just as useless as not backing it up but the picture on that image will just be for illustrations and nothing more, any coin on that wallet would have been moved out before it gets to the internet. As for the plain text I think it is best form of writing seed phrase down is in the plain text, using illustrations or any other way to write the words would be a thing too much and most at times people usually end up forgetting the pattern or how They illustrate the words or text and this is a much painful loss than theft. My advice is if you feel like the plain text is too easy one can simply just add a passphrase to the wallet and then stores the both phrased separately from each other. This way you have text in plain and also a second layer of protection on it

You may print hex codes of any encrypted file, I guess BIP39 passphrase is more accessible to general public and additionally better for $5 wrench attack (if the attacker does not already know the Bitcoin wallet and how much you have).

I heard about that company. They often advertise on simply bitcoin podcast. I feel like it's a good idea to use titanium plates for your seed. It's a bit of an overkill, but can you be too safe?
There are other options that may be as good, for instance a piece of paper inside a steel, threaded, water-tight tube. You put the tube in a safe spot, for instance in a hole drilled into your floor or basement wall and there's no way it can be found or destroyed.

There is no standard for that, which is why it's a recipe for disaster, just like every other unsupported, self-invented ad hoc solution. The first problem that comes to mind is that you need to keep this encrypted text somewhere digitally, because it is not human-readable. Then, you have to explain the encryption process to your family.

If you don't want from the thief to gain access with just the twelve words, just use the BIP39 passphrase. Extends the phrase, is human-readable and is widely supported by Bitcoin software.

Safes are worthless, didn't you hear about robbers using chains to rip the safe out of your home using car ? or using angle saw ? and if you don't have a gun, they will use the famous $5 dollar wrench attack.

Encrypt it and then print it / stamp it - there's no reason to have it in plain text, you can always share password to your trusted family members if you are afraid of dying and not leaving any access to it.

Well I am bold or at least I have a huge amount of faith in my Linux machine and that is why I keep my seeds as I have many wallets in a text document, yeah plain text in a separate partition encrypted with LUKS (Linux equivalent to Bitlocker in Windows let's say) and so far no incident every has happened to me. Just to be sure I also make a backup of that partition which is a normal partition that does not contain any OS data, so if my machine crashes (only when SSD will crash as Linux never crashes) I can reinstall to a new SSD and then add the encrypted partition. I still consider this a plain text thing though yet I am proud in having 0 incidents since late 2013 when I first came into contact with crypto. I am also the only person to use my machine which is never shared with anyone else.

While for the guy in here showing it in a plate showing text, the only way to save it like you should, is to take it in a safe that you are the only owner of it.

You should never have your seed phrase stored in plain text, that's plain stupid.

Ya I’d say definitely worth it to have this done just in case something happens. Any natural disaster or fire that can wipe out anything in its way it’s always best to have a Plan B

It's no bragging right to own a titanium plate, the tweets on there were made for awareness, and possibly for people who do not feel comfortable about their paper wallet getting confiscated wherever it is by fire or water, to advance on to using Titanium plates. This is not to say that anybody would know where it's going to be stored.

Be that as it may, whatever method (paper, titanium, washers) that seem protective for any crypto user is fine, provided they're kept safe, but if you're thinking of saving those keys for generational wealth—writing it on paper is not advisable.

This seriously blows my mind. What kind of people openly give any information about their private key or seed phrase. That seems like a challenge for motivated criminals.

When i had money in crypto, i just told everyone who knew i was in crypto that i had lost my all of money. I feel that it doesn't make sense to brag about your money or giving any extra information about your safety measures for it.

Sure, people don't know where that plate is, and it might as well be stored in the bank safety box, but given it's titanium, they are considering a fire as a possibility, which indicates that it's stored in somewhere where it's their own responsibility.

Having your seed phrase engraved on titanium plates does not guarantee the safety of your seed phrase if you don't have backups in different locations very far from each other. This is because no one knows the kind of natural disaster that will occur which will make give you no access to your seed phrase.

It is more safer when there are duplicates either you writing it on paper or titanium/steel plate.

A paper seed phrase no one knows about is safer than a titanium seed phrase you brag about on X

It is a good back up method and if you have money to buy these things, it's good to use it because it is safer than paper, USB stick against fire, water, shock, pressure and acid too.

Metal Bitcoin storage reviews from J. Lopp.
Secure your seed phrase with washers
Stainless steel Bitcoin Recovery Seed Plate
n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable)

There are already very good tutorials and videos about how to protect one's seed phrase using steel instead of paper.
In my opinion, it is not one hundred percent necessary to go with titanium, not only because it is relatively expensive when compared to steel but there are also very good grades of stainless steel which are used in industrial processes and can withstand sea water and mild accids easily in the long term.
Look up for "A4-80" steel, it is very good for engraving ones private keys and also it is the kind of steel one could find easily in one's country in the form of washers, regardless it is developed or developing.

When comes to separating or hiding one's keys, I would be comfortable by getting at least two copies of the seed, one for personal use/recovery, which is supposed to be easily accessed to and another copy, which would be hidden in a secure place, geologically far away from home; the latter would be divided, so one would only need to remember the locations to recover the pieces of the plate.

It's a pretty good protection actually but people should be aware of the false sense of security. Because you're more likely to lose it somewhere or to get robbed than to undergo an earthquake or a flood in most places of Earth. In addition if this kind of disaster happens to you or if you get a fire of your home, you have very little chance of finding the plate among the debris. So IMO it's better to keep several backups in different locations. And to use a BIP39 passphrase ofc or to encrypt your seed in a way or another to avoid a theft from anyone finding your backup.

It wouldn't mean much if another gets access to it.
But in all it would help mitigate the disadvantage of using paper in saving seed phrase.
Though it would be more complex and strenuous than using paper but I guess that would be the sacrifice for durability and longevity.

We have some discussions about this in the past on this forum. Titanium remains the best material that has been discussed while stainless steel is the next. They are both good.

But still always have backups in different locations, like 2 other backups.

I came in contact with some X users who already do this, and it looked amazing to me, they even tested the Titanium plates on water and tried burning it on fire, but the plate was still elegant with the seed phrase intact. Bearing in mind of the vulnerability that comes with saving our seed phrase on mere papers, this technique can secure our seed even when they is a fire outbreak, flood, or any natural disaster that paper can't withstand.

I still have in mind of some friends who said they'll have to split the location of their paper wallet because of any disaster that may occur. Having your seed phrase punched on titanium plates makes it water, and fire proof...

   

Check out the page they've got the details and tools for hammering the words on the plate.