Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (Read 6990 times)

Hey, this is a nice update.
In my mind, those jigs should be disposable, with a sleek and simple design that can be used and then forgotten.
But hey, there's nothing wrong with adding some extra features, making the jig so badass!
Excellent work!

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to bring a quick update after the summer. I have been working on a new design both for M8 and M6 washers. Now the BigJig is slightly smaller, and I am using dual color now, which looks better imho.

For instance I have added some lateral tabs to rotate it easier, made symbols for the lock and unlock positions, etc..

Here are some pictures:









Here also a render explaining all the upgrades:



Also, with regards to the capsules and other elements where the washers can be hidden in, I think that the steel capsule for the M6 washers is quite decent, I have to find and alternative for the M8 washers, but they are quite big (compared to the M6 ones), so idk if I will find something nice.

I will keep investigating, in the end, I believe the washer option is one of the best options available, they are cheap, you can replace them and dispose them easily... It is almost something "open source". I will keep on the investigation trying to find some good steel recipient for the M8 ones...

Another point which was something that I wanted it to solve, is to be able to deliver these washer, jig and stamps sets with the minimum KYC as possible (people do not want to give out their address for these things). I discovered that there are some companies (in my case InPost), which can handle Locker-Only deliveries (I just need an email, and the person who gets it picks a locker and receives the package there, it is not supported for all countries, but many across Europe at least).

I have learned something new from this thread, I will definitely let you know if such error occur fillippone but the images are not missing which are very clear to view to understand.

But I have a completely opposite experience and can safely say that I have seen audio cassettes become unplayable after a long time. Even if these cassettes were simply lying around and not touched. You see, magnetic tape has the property of demagnetization.

I am inclined to believe that there is nothing safer in terms of preservation than solid storage media. At a minimum, paper and a pencil, at most - a piece of metal and an engraver (or similar).

cool. that's definitely a less difficult way to store your private keys. and it's foolproof since you're not transcribing anything from one medium to another. i think even normal cassette tape and a tape recorder if you don't mind speaking the seed phrase would work just fine. i have never heard of audio cassette tape going bad in 20 years. i think it can last forever pretty much. these are ways that are way simpler than having to get specialized equipment and undergo a very tediuous and time consuming process. but to each their own  

all headers within this mpeg2 (real format of minidv videos) is repeated so you'll lose half a second maximum. tool that transfers files works like dd so you can choose start position, count of blocks to read and block size , grab some blocks from the middle  put it into .mpeg and play it. there will be glitches at begin and end but you'll see all stuff.

i dont know though. isn't dv files digital storage format so if a few bits gets corrupted maybe the entire file is unreadable. at least with vhs tape, that cant happen.

A little head up for signalling that I restored all the images on the OP. Thanks @Hyphen(-).
If you notice that some images are missing, or links are broken, do not hesitate to signal it to me so that I can fi it asap.

i'll rather go with mid-2000s minidv handheld camera which supports file transfer over firewire. As a bonus you can also have hour-long record of the screen with phrase. 20 years shelf life of a cassette where outer layers of tape protect inner ones

I might re-stock on those (I think I still have a couple of them), the point is that the device is a bit complex for a "regular" user. If you are interested I have some extra resources so you can DIY a bit cheaper, here is a blog summary post:

https://hideyourkeys.io/cheap-hardware-wallet-below-diy-guide/

Here at the product manual there is more information:

https://hideyourkeys.io/product/hardware-wallet-manual/

The arduino board is very cheap on aliexpress, and the case as well, you can get it for around 15-20€. The process might seem a bit daunting or scary at first, but it is quite easy, it is just copying some commands to make it work.

Do you plan selling any hardware wallet devices again?
I see you had one for €29 that is based on an arduino development board
https://hideyourkeys.io/product/hideyourkeys-hardware-wallet/

Same here.
With safe deposit you are making a big target for criminals and government agents that break into your house.
This doesn't mean nobody should use safe deposits for anything, but they are not making seed words any safer.

Or find a Linux DVD or flash drive with driver support for your printer

Wow, these are truly horror stories to me.
As a partial mitigation for this, I choose a very reputable institution for depositing my seed phrase (or part of it, for what you might be interested in knowing).
Choosing based on reputation prevents you from official access for unwanted reasons and from theft from bank employees.

But point taken: these things do happen.

Use toner instead. I made the mistake of getting a newer (dumb) laser printer, which isn't properly supported on Linux Live DVDs. If I'd have to buy one again, I'd get a second hand old HP printer.

Also, don't forget that the ink used to write on the paper can surprise you. I have some horrible stories about that. Paper was intact, the ink was barely visible on the sheet of paper.
Anyway, the seed should be checked every few years. These things do not happen suddenly.

I'd argue that, under normal circumstances, both last more than a lifetime. But indeed, metal feels tougher

March 2021. Third parties simply opened (hacked) 1,400 safe deposit boxes and took out everything they could get their hands on (The FBI took $86 million from safe deposit boxes. An appeals court will decide if that's constitutional). No matter how they convince me of the safety of storage in safe deposit boxes, I will say - NO. This applies to any service providers for the safe storage of money or other valuables - you give to third parties. Which means the actual transfer of ownership rights (unofficial), that is, you are deprived of your property for the period of provision of safe storage services to you.

If you search on the Internet (ru-local), you will find more than one case where deposits in safe deposit boxes were stolen. Without unauthorized hacking, therefore, bank employees had access.

What you described in the list must be observed, but in different countries the attitude towards laws is slightly different from those adopted in the world. Simply, a bank (or their employees) can easily rob their client. You can think otherwise, but numerous cases from life cannot be refuted. Facts are stubborn things.


I don't undertake to judge how technically the theft of safe deposit boxes occurs, but by googling you will find out many interesting cases when clients of safe deposit boxes lost their savings.

Washers is not for taking with you. Washers will withstand fire. Washers is when you put it down once and don’t touch it until absolutely necessary. Washers is a backup that you only access as a last resort. Therefore, it must be stored in such a way as to withstand most force majeure circumstances (fires, natural disasters, break-ins and thefts, etc.). Washers is your last chance to access your savings, and not a trinket in your pocket for traveling to different countries and daily access.

You are confusing the application / purpose of seed washers. This is for long-term storage (10-20-50 years), and paper is for short-term storage (1, 2, 5 years). If you are aware of the difference, then everything will fall into place in your understanding.

It's up to you to decide.

This should be a safe and secure place with sole access to you (or those with whom you are willing to share the content).

That is, users (and readers) of the bitcointalk can receive a final discount of 10%?

If I were you, I would make a higher discount when paying for bitcoin, but only during a bearish trend.


Will the next proposal come to put the seed phrase on coins (instead of washers) and carry it with you? Well, it’s a strong and refractory metal, thieves won’t take small change, customs officers don’t pay attention to coins - it’s just an ideal solution.

/sarcasm off


For what?

The contents have been transferred to another wallet and there is no need to destroy the carrier of the seed-phrase.

And even if you have to do this, then it’s enough to use your resourcefulness power tools, and not drown the washers in hot metal, like the T-800.

If washer wallet is stored securely enough, it will never need to be destroyed.

Wasn't the Winklevoss' system to have parts of a multisig in different safe deposit boxes around the world? It'll take you 2 days by private jet, but you can feel reasonably safe that way

Why?

But if you insist, it's not so difficult:

i'm not convinced it is a good starting point for storing a seed phrase. to me it seems like more of a liability. because it has to be destroyed at some point in the future. i think for the vast majority of people, storing it on a piece of paper is perfectly fine. then put that piece of paper inside some small metal container if you like to keep it protected...

people that go through this washers method it is a huge hassle. and they know it! but if that's what they want to do then it's interesting seeing their overkill behavior on full display  

oh and not every safe deposit box has a monthly fee...but i guess most of them do.

This is not a bad idea, so far it is working good with just wood



Glad you noticed! There are also many other vases and pots where we can hide the washers, the capsules would be the most basic option


Yes, I would be a bit concerned if nobody noticed the shop  . I added a "bitcointalk" coupon for a 5% discount + another 5% discount when paying in bitcoin (in case somebody ever reads this thread   ).


This was the whole approach of the idea

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I would not feel safe with my seedphrase inside of a bank safe, depending on the country of course, but in some places it might be more risky than having them at home (and the fact that it has certain fixed monthly costs is also a drawback)

As fillippone said, washers are not for air transportation, imho, the washers approach is a good starting point compared to a piece of paper. There are better options, of course (for instance, memorizing them), but there is no perfect solution, each one has its flaws and advantages.

You could even disassemble a 12 washer set, mix some of them with coins and get them through the airport x-ray machine disguised as coins, but I would rather use a hardware wallet for air transportation.

The best solution would be either to keep the words in your mind, memorized, or some sort of digital puzzle which nobody else knows. But the washers is a good solution when combining them with a passphrase or a multisig solution.

i don't think they do have access to your safe deposit box. at least the one i saw it has 2 key holes and a key has to go into each one. one from the bank and one from you. and so they can't open it without you. it's not like mail boxes etc where they can reach in your box from the backside  

that's what you say but what do you end up doing in an emergency? you grab your washers and take them with you right? like a house fire.

the simple fact that all of your luggage can be searched at any port of entry that's what. they will stand there while you watch and go through every single thing in your handbag or luggage and ask you questions about anything they find while also asking you other things like what's the purpose of your trip and how are you supporting yourself but that's neither here nor there.

because you didn't want to destroy something you worked so hard to make. unlike a simple piece of paper that you can just tear up...


well yeah I mean we all agree with that!

for many years where?




no it might not be. like if you move out of your house and forget to take the washers with you, you can't just exactly sneak back in there once someone new has moved in. and eventually it will be found since it cannot be destroyed. so you put yourself into a bad situation. or lets say you end up in the hospital where you can't go back home. but you need money to pay your medical bill so you have to tell someone where that washer device is so you can pay your bills. hopefully you trust them because if not they can steal your bitcoin. by reading the washers.


i'm not sure if you get it or not but consider this scenario: your house burns down while you're at work. you come home and the fire department is putting out the fire but you can't go back inside. but you HAVE to go back inside AT SOME POINT. even though they tell you not to. because you're worried that your little washer contraption is still in readable condition and you would hate for the fire department or some salvage crew to find it and take your bitcoin. so you literally have to sneak back in somehow and go searching through all the rubble to find that darn thing just so that someone else can't get it! you are in a terrible situation. the only option you have is to stop using that particular wallet, transfer all your funds out of it and create another one. but someone is going to find that thing and know alot about you for one that you are a hardcore bitcoin user and they'll be able to look up all your transactions on the blockchain from that wallet.