Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (Read 7364 times)

Good to know, even though the approach with sulfuric acid is not very realistic imho 

Hi, actually I added a little salt to the jar where there was only water, but obviously it's not like having sea water. I wouldn't know where to get it, I live 100km from the coast

the experiment with acid is an extreme of conditions that could happen, H2SO4 is not found around in the supermarket, but many acidic liquids such as detergents and degreasers are, yes, the effect they would have over very long periods would perhaps be the same who knows.

But I did it more out of curiosity than science.

That's not really useful, you could probably just find the expected result by Googling. Exposure to sulphuric acid in different concentrations is well documented. A different acid would yield a different result, some are more corrosive than others.
I'd be much more interested to see what it looks like after being sprayed with seawater for 2 years, while being exposed to high temperatures. But again, that also isn't a realistic threat level for your seed words.

Sorry guys if I wrote in Italian, but I posted first in the Italian section and I'm copy pasting. Post the result of the experiment in water and sulfuric acid of the washers started 2 years ago.

As soon as I have some time I will edit and translate it

E bene ragazzi a distanza di 2 anni dichiaro terminato l'esperimento in condizioni estreme delle rondelle di backup. (Non mi aspettavo il secondo risultato sinceramente)

LINK : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61365208

Ed ecco qui i risultati:





Come potete vedere anche se è rimasta in acqua per 2 anni c'è solo qualche accenno di ruggine , ma la zincatura mantiene, la scritta incisa è ancora ben visibile. Ergo non è necessario acquistare obbligatoriamente rondelle in acciaio INOX per prevenire la corrosione, in ambiente umido prima che la ruggine rovini l'incisione ci vorrebbero decenni.

Passiamo all altro test, quello in acido H2SO4, condizioni ben più estreme:



Si è formato un deposito sul fondo, abbastanza solido, pensavo che la rondella si trovasse al suo interno e invece ecco ciò che è rimasto di essa:

picture hosting

E' rimasto solo un frammento, quindi i BTC sono andati persi per sempre 



Se notate si vede una piccola parte della rondella, ora sappiamo che in ambiente acido non resiste, bene così.

Risultato del test: Se volete tenere il vostro seed al sicuro lontano dalle persone non lo immergete in acido solforico 

Vi ho fatto aspettare un pò per il risultato ma stavo tranquillo del fatto che per noi bitcoiner 2 anni sono praticamente niente 

This anvil still looks like a toy compared to the hammer, but that may be because I'm used to this:
It's probably enough though, and for sure much better than wood.

You could even use a 1.5 kg hammer as base.

You only need to do 2 things: make sure it doesn't move, and hit it hard enough. Something will dent.

That 1 tonne press looked like a toy. Even my €15 bottle jack uses hydraulics, and is rated at 5 tonnes.
I'd avoid spending money on the wrong tools: letter punches are designed to be used with a hammer.

Thanks for all the precious info, for the moment ill borrow a 1.5kg hammer and a steel base from a friend to give a try in the next days.

At this point considering your info im very hopeful that it will work.

Anyway, i'm still convinced that a press would be the easier way, but it would be way more expansive than the hammer.
After giving about 10 hammer hits i was already starting to feel tired LOL, so the press looked way way easier for somebody lazy as me aha.

I've seen some videos on youtube of people stamping with the press but they did on softer metals, and used a special tool to be attached to the press to hold the engravers in the right poisition.
I think a 2 tonn press would be fine but it costs about 150$, + the engraver holding tool that i wasn't able to find anywhere yet i'm sure wont be cheap as well..

So for the moment i give one last try with the bigger hammer.
But if btc reach 150k i promise myself i will buy the bigger press

The problem is mainly your wood base. It can flex and absorb the majority of your impact force. A heavier hammer is also advisable. A 500g hammer isn't beefy enough for my taste. With a hit surface size approx. a square-inch I'd have to concentrate too much to properly hit the stamp tool. Get something real and not a toy.

Look at the tools from fillippone's original post (picture is from there in smaller size), that's a proper hammer if it's at least 1kg:


fillippone used an anvil as base for a reason. You want something heavy and sturdy with significant inertia to move it and it should not flex at all. All your impact force should drive the stamp into the washer, no energy should be wasted in flexing or moving the base!

You don't need necessarily to buy an anvil. Get something heavy and beefy from the metal scrapyard, something compact upwards a few kilos with a flat surface is fine. Avoid flat sheet-like stuff, you want something chunky, blocky, more or less cube-shaped, the heavier the better.

I don't believe this arbor press will do a good job, if at all. For the money you can get a proper hammer, a good enough anvil and maybe some good washers, too. The arbor press will also be painstakingly slow, compared to a hammer. I didn't use a jig to position the stamp tool as I didn't care if my imprints are a bit jiggly and non-uniformly placed.

I like the idea, but I have two doubts:

• How do you fix washers to match the pattern precisely? You still need a jig or something like that.
• Reviews of the press look terrible. Maybe there are other options?  

Intriguing idea anyway.

this is the one i was considering about.. will see, if i buy and try i'll let you know

https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Arbor-Press-Ton-Manual/dp/B0CGJ4QT17/ref=sr_1_3?c=ts&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.R9D0nBpSlB6ttLT0cs6wZAw4xa7Xbz1KVijWCpMMSZ--PWVT0dArdY4KSRfVJ88oXWRSd_eNesosXxAbWtJj-_6jOvP3MvBT2XM6mQKTx4WMx6joOZEJl2NiLg36HloP15lsrXFPIauLFkizRLi9711X_F18bY_9QWYswe62PJp49GtCWMftIi61uqMndNB61n2ZONRUnDhbX4mmSe1T8A5GWKvlEmXr_OP7xZNeZ9D7gjiyueYmCJ5ja--NBsDqPVeSZbd56Bc0AMCPFWpezLydmRZt6SeCCPzXcik-15w.2xesjhCcsg2MmRBS0RJKJR2AlmJR2Csql6CS36ho4u8&dib_tag=se&keywords=Arbor%2BPresses&qid=1731255596&s=power-hand-tools&sr=1-3&ts_id=9022400011&th=1

I haven't tried it, but my gut feeling tells me 1000 kg on a metal letter stamp isn't going to make a dent.

Get a bigger hammer Hit it with 1 kg.

Anvils are made out of steel for a reason. If the washer moves even a tiny bit into the wood, the force drops exponentially. Try it: get a small piece of wood, put it on a pillow, and try to hammer a small nail into the wood. It won't work.

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I Googled a bit: different sites have different numbers, but it looks like the force of a hammer hit on steel can be 10 tonnes.

Provide a link to this press (or similar) that you are considering purchasing.

You know, instead of wondering if you need such a press, you can just buy it and try to press washers with it. This will dispel all doubts. 

Iron and stainless steel washers are difficult to engrave. You would be the first to demonstrate the engraving method using a press in this thread. I would really like to see what the result of this looks like.

just to complete my explanation, my idea woube be to substitute the hammer with a press, while keeping the same other toools as the engravers and "blockmit" jig for M8 washers.

I thought a lot about about stamping washers too, but I did not want to buy stamps because I was not confident  enough thai it would work out ok. To be frank I was pretty suprised when I stumbled on this topic, now I see that a lot of guys went pretty far with this and that the method is already tested and working.

As for stainless steel washers, I suspected that they eould be pretty hard to stamp, probably better solution for them is to laser engrave them, if one has that option.

As for press I might have good solution to press letter without any machine but with a simple jig. I might share sketch later if i get to my computer.

i tried both A2 and A4 washers but even using all my power the letters are not readeble enough..
i'm using a 0.5kg hammer
the only think is that i'm using wood for the base.. i know a steel base would be better but i cant believe it would solve all my problem.. or would it?

Thats why i was thinking to buy a press, a 1 tonn costs about 70€ but i was wondering if 1 tonn press would be enough to print the letters

I can't be the only one who has thought about this solution.. or am i? eheheh

Are you using galvanized steel washers or stainless steel ones?

Galvanized steel ones should be easier to stamp, but they are vulnerable to corrosion, specially if you touch them with wet fingers, or store them in damp place.
I guess that seed could be recovered even if they corrode if they were stamped hard.

Stainless steel is harder to stamp, but it is less suspectible to corrosion (it can corrodw too, if it is in contact with other metal, or subjected to hard conditions).

I don't have any experience with stamping stainless steel and would like to hear your experience/ thoughts.

I suppose this is a joke with a question about an arbor press.

For good stamping, you need to consider 2 components:

1 - Thickness and elasticity of the metal. And also, what kind of metal it is.

2 - Size and weight of the hammer, which is expressed in the force applied to the stamp when striking.

Each metal has corresponding characteristics (hardness, elasticity, pliability to processing, etc.) and, accordingly, it is necessary to select a sufficient level of striking force.

Based on my experience, I can say that for high-quality engraving on metal, it is enough to make 1 accurate and good strike (according to the level of applied force). But in order to develop the correct technique, you should first practice with a specific metal using different degrees of pressure when striking. Because in each specific case (depending on the type of metal), the striking force will have to vary.

Practice and with experience everything will work out.

Hi, i'm having some problems to get a good stamping on the washers with the hammer, so i was thinking to try with an arbor press.
I would like to know if there is anyone here who has already tried.
In praticular i would like to know if a 1 tonn press would be enough.
Thanks.

Hey, this is a nice update.
In my mind, those jigs should be disposable, with a sleek and simple design that can be used and then forgotten.
But hey, there's nothing wrong with adding some extra features, making the jig so badass!
Excellent work!

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to bring a quick update after the summer. I have been working on a new design both for M8 and M6 washers. Now the BigJig is slightly smaller, and I am using dual color now, which looks better imho.

For instance I have added some lateral tabs to rotate it easier, made symbols for the lock and unlock positions, etc..

Here are some pictures:









Here also a render explaining all the upgrades:



Also, with regards to the capsules and other elements where the washers can be hidden in, I think that the steel capsule for the M6 washers is quite decent, I have to find and alternative for the M8 washers, but they are quite big (compared to the M6 ones), so idk if I will find something nice.

I will keep investigating, in the end, I believe the washer option is one of the best options available, they are cheap, you can replace them and dispose them easily... It is almost something "open source". I will keep on the investigation trying to find some good steel recipient for the M8 ones...

Another point which was something that I wanted it to solve, is to be able to deliver these washer, jig and stamps sets with the minimum KYC as possible (people do not want to give out their address for these things). I discovered that there are some companies (in my case InPost), which can handle Locker-Only deliveries (I just need an email, and the person who gets it picks a locker and receives the package there, it is not supported for all countries, but many across Europe at least).

I have learned something new from this thread, I will definitely let you know if such error occur fillippone but the images are not missing which are very clear to view to understand.