Topic: Is Metal Seed Storage Safe in an Earthquake? - page 2. (Read 486 times)

Indeed, this is where storage gets way too complicated to make it a cheap thus affordable and reliable solution.

You either go for the cheap and easy way to deal with, like placing a tracker like an airbag in it, but which under 10 feet of concrete and rebar won't be detectable at all, Bluetooth doesn't penetrate that deep, or you go for a more complex and powerful solution which will need a third-party service, a huge battery that will increase the size, which might solve or add another problem on top of an existing one.

With a small box, it's highly possible it will not get noticed among the ruble just get thrown with the trash in a truck and dumped before you're even allowed to reach the scene of the disaster, with a huge box, there is the problem of it getting stolen as some might mistake it for safebox before you have the chance of getting it back. Plus if you make this big and durable, you have to hide it also pretty well in your house in normal times for the same reason, thieves getting in and thinking it's a safe box full of money, which actually it is  


Yeah, easier said than done.
It was hard for me to find a place to store a pair of keys in case both me and my wife lost ours, (obviously, the inside of the house was a no), and with a hardware wallet, you must exclude a person keeping those, so, how many people have 2- or 3 properties with land so they can bury a case or a box far away from prying eyes?


If you're living above the third floor or even better you don't have tsunamis at all in your region there is not really a matter of concern. But you could at least laminate it to avoid normal degradation or accidents like your neighbor flooding your apartment.

Can the average person think about all possibilities? I live in an area where there was no seismic or fires before, but we are near the sea, so I keep the seeds in its normal storage, it is in paper that is not a waterproof or fire. so if something like this happens, my wallet seeds will disappear.

The strange thing is that I feel safe and not even think about developing solutions for such days. I do not know, does everyone feel that?

As long as they know how to access your back ups, it isn't a difficult concept to figure out.

If they came on this forum and said "Hey, I have a seed phrase which I have recovered but the wallet is empty/almost empty. I also have a password but I don't know what to do with it.", then they would very quickly be directed to use the password has an additional passphrase and recover the coins.

I too think something like that will be difficult to do, storing seed phrase in two geographical location, but we just assumed that the person wants to go for the option and know the disadvantages already.

They might lose the coins because they barely understand the concept of seed phrase? I think that is not hard to learn, also not hard to teach. Even it is a good idea to start teaching them about bitcoin and how to recover coins through seed phrase back up. All that is needed is just the time to teach them. You can teach them, send them bitcoin on a noncustodial wallet generated by themselves, tell them to delete it, install back the wallet app to spend the coin in a way they can convert it to fiat, just to let them know how valuable bitcoin is, instead of sending them fiat directly. No one will joke with what they know that it is money.

The little detail that keeps me from being fond of passphrases completely is the idea of lost coins, in the case something happens to me and my family cannot retrieve the funds. They barely understand the concept of a seed phrase.

I suppose it is matter of patience and time. Thank you all for your opinions, I don't intend to derail this thread any further. 

Does the average person really have that many places to store the credentials though? I feel like they don't, and by splitting it up in places which you don't own, you present yourself with even more risk. While, I like the idea of a multisig, storing the credentials in two different geographical places is pretty hard. Especially, securely.

Of course, we've all heard the stories of people digging in a random field, and storing various things. However, I've never been much of a fan of that. What happens when that gets dug up by a construction company to build the housing on it or whatever the circumstances is.

You ideally need to own, and no one else has access to it, even theoretically.

I agree with Charles-Tim. Do a multi sig with one in your home, one is with you, one is someplace else and another is in yes another place.
Pick the amount you want to have and the amount you want to need to have to restore to move the coins.

Might not be as convenient but so be it.

-Dave

If you want to just store your seed phrase in two geographical location and you want to avoid inconveniences, you can use a strong passphrase while generating your seed instead which is the best for conveniences in my opinion. Or instead you can just go for a multisig wallet if you want to go for your choice of backup, instead of splitting the seed phrase.

Fair points.
I am personally of a fan of the idea of having different backups in geographically distant places, I am paranoid on whether someone else could find one of the backups by chance. Granted, it can be done in a way which one would be the only one able to recover the information. I would consider to do it by splitting the seed in two and separate them in different places.

We aren't too different from pirates burying their gold, aren't we?

There are a lot of issues with such a concept.

Either it is placed on the outside of the device, in which case it could easily get destroyed in such an event as an earthquake, or it is placed inside the device, in which case the range will be very short (if at all) given that the signal needs to penetrate the stainless steel in order to get out. I suppose you could engineer a device encased in stainless steel with just a very small antenna reaching the outside of the device, but you are now adding a lot of cost. You would need to access your back up semi regularly in order to recharge or replace the battery, which increases the risk of it being discovered. And then of course anything which can broadcast a signal can have that signal intercepted or detected by malicious attackers. The last thing I want on my back ups is any kind of wireless connectivity which could be used by an attacker to locate them.

Better to simply have at least two back ups stored geographically separately.

What if the metal sets to store one's seed came with a small tracker device which could be activated remotely from one's phone or from a computer? If the steel wallet is sturdy enough, the built-in device/chip could survive the earthquake and then it would be just matter of using one's phone to localize it while the cleanup operations are going on.

I think human lives are more important than any crypto and metal plates, there are estimates that more than 50,000 people lost their lives in this earthquakes.
Most people and rescuers probably wouldn't know how valuable piece of paper or metal plate is in situations like this.
I heard several stories from rescue teams that found a lot of fiat paper money hidden inside furniture of one apartment.
In one examples they found $2 million in a bag, and owner didn't survive, he couldn't bring all that money with him in a grave:
https://punchng.com/turkey-earthquake-rescue-team-discovers-2m-buried-in-rubble/

Another case of rescuers finding $150,000 in rubble of residential building in Turkey:
https://tass.com/world/1576015

We might never know as the people who could have lost their crypto backups might also be dead or seriously injured.
I think the confirmed dead count is over 45.000 already. I am afraid you will be able to add a "1" in front of that number when the whole thing settles. Whole villages have disappeared together with many parts of cities. How does one even confirm the dead count in that case? You can only make estimates. 

Are there any reports from Turkey of people losing their cryptocurrencies due to earthquakes? I know that it is early, but most of us do not take such an option into account, and the operations to search for a piece of stainless steel metal in such debris will be difficult, as the focus of the authorities will be on saving lives or recycling the debris quickly, and not saving your coins.

Try to imagine it: This is the building you used to live in.



Do you recognize your apartment? Can you see the walls of your room? Do you see the shelf where you kept your seed tucked away somewhere? Do your recognize your airgapped computer somewhere?

The question here is not if the plate will survive the disaster, it's how you will find anything in the wreck. After almost two weeks of digging and looking for survivors, it's time for heavy machinery to step in and clear the area. There won't be any place or time for you to look for a piece of metal.

Imagine a huge box of Lego sets that's empty. One person will fill it with Legos from a bucket while another one drops half an eyelash inside at some point while the box gets filled. Do you think you will find the eyelash? Maybe. I think your chances of finding your metal seed backup are much worse.   

It's not convenient, but if the alternative is losing everything, then it is preferable. It doesn't have to be the only copy of your seed phrase - obviously you can keep one close by which is convenient to access should you need to - but any back up which is safe from catastrophes in your local area will by necessity be inconvenient for you to access.

Good quality stainless steel of a reasonable thickness would survive just fine, especially something 2" thick as you suggest.

If a 1000 ton building collapses, then that full 1000 tons will be spread out over the entire area that the building collapses on to, which will be the footprint of the building plus more, since the rubble will fall in all directions. An average steel plate is maybe around 10 square inches, a tiny fraction of the total footprint. And as I said above, Lopp's stress testing shows that such devices can easily withstand 20 tons of pressure. To have 20 tons of pressure on 10 square inches, you would need all 1000 tons of the building to collapse on to an area less than 2 foot by 2 foot, which is obviously crazy.

On the first point, I disagree with you. A 1000 ton building doesn't purposefully fall with its entire mass onto your seed-phrase plate, so the force applied to the plate will be less. This is due to the fact that the building, when falling on its way, will encounter obstacles in the form of walls and floor slabs, which will extinguish and take on the load. I assume that even in such a building the plate with seed-phrases will not be badly damaged and keep the text readable. Again, the random factor plays a big role here.

On the second and third points here I completely agree with you. In the ruins and rubble, it will be unrealistic to find a small piece of the plate (if you are allowed to do this), which will most likely end up in a landfill and be lost to you. In the worst case, someone else will find the seed-phrase and no one will like this outcome.

Therefore, the best solution, as you said, is not to store the seed-phrase in earthquake-prone regions, because, as discussed above, there will be no sense, even using a reliable storage method.

The durability is one thing but recovering it in the rubbles is the hardest part especially if you live on multiple floors building because you will need to remove all the debris which normally leave behind when there’s no people need to be rescued.

Having a backup of your seed phrase somewhere else is the only way to counter this event. I personally leave my backup private key on my grandma house in the province and the pther one stays with me. My grandma didn’t know what it used for same with their neighborhood. I feel safe when I have backup somewhere else instead of doing all in.

If a 1000 tonne building falls on your seed no thick metal is going to prevent it from getting damaged it would be damaged beyond repair. It would be crushed and two extra plates even if they were 2" thick would not protect the plate in the middle. Then there is the problem of recovering the plates because you are not the one digging up a 1000 tonne building it will be the emergency services and they will not allow you to go near so they will take that seed or metal not think any more of it and throw it in the trash pits which you have 0% chance of recovering.

The only way would be to remove your seed from a earth quake prone zone.

If there is a seismic hazard in your area, then along with waterproof and fireproof, you should think about protecting seed phrases from earthquakes. In my opinion, the most dangerous elements here are building structures, such as various heavy objects, such as concrete walls and metal elements. When crushed and dropped by their own weight, these parts can damage the metal crypto storage and make the information unreadable.

How can this be prevented? I think it will be necessary to use thicker metal plates, or even better, several at once, like a sandwich. That is, the main plate with text on both sides is covered by 2 other plates that take all the damage to protect the main plate from deformations and damaged text. The multi-plate construction will have greater rigidity and will not bend like a thin piece of metal.

https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/cryo/ - something like this, but I would replace the threaded bolts with hard-fixing rivets (as a bonus, it will be immediately noticeable if someone opened your vault) so that the threads would not be torn off and the plates would not separate from the impact.

It is better to have an extra margin of safety than later to have difficulties with the readability of the seed-phrase during restoration.

Let's say you manage to make the storage strong and reliable, but another question arises. Will it be possible to find your seed-phrase under a bunch of rubble and will you be the one who found it?