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Topic: Is my crypto decentralized? - page 2. (Read 3406 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 566
fractally
January 12, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
#70
You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter  Cheesy

There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised.  Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate   Cheesy everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm..

This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while.    I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there.  If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions.  It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved.  


Why don't you allow comments on your blog if you choose to make claims about other cryptos? A little one sided, no? I guess you have been reading all along but chose not to take part?

Here is why I don't use blog comments:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/blog-comments/

And no, I haven't been reading all along.  I get updates from Stan periodically and people post on BitSharestalk which I follow.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 09:40:37 PM
#69
You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter  Cheesy

There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised.  Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate   Cheesy everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm..

Actually, this isn't even what I do in my 60 hours a week working for BitShares.  (But I admit, this is more fun!)

Bytemaster takes live questions from a world wide audience every Friday at 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time.  
BitShares Global Teleconference
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 09:38:05 PM
#68
You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter  Cheesy

There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised.  Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate   Cheesy everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm..

This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while.    I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there.  If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions.  It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved.  


Why don't you allow comments on your blog if you choose to make claims about other cryptos? A little one sided, no? I guess you have been reading all along but chose not to take part?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 566
fractally
January 12, 2015, 09:35:26 PM
#67
You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter  Cheesy

There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised.  Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate   Cheesy everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm..

This is absolutely the most amusing thing I have read in a while.    I am the most directly accessible lead developer out there.  If you want to have a real live debate, join our weekly mumble sessions.  It will be quite entertaining and educational for all involved. 
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 09:27:38 PM
#66
You certainly do earn you $2500 a month, anyone would think you get paid by the letter  Cheesy

There is no controversy over the definition of decentralised.  Restart this thread in the the Bitcoin General section, as I attempted to do, and find out for yourself. And let me know when Dan has gained the confidence to engage in genuine debate   Cheesy everything is a little too staged managed for my tastes atm..
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 09:15:10 PM
#65
Pre-empt Stans next post: he is still assuming today's distributions are fixed and will never improve  Cheesy For a fair comparison of his model, he should be using Ripple as his 'vs'. I said previously that distributed models are quicker at achieving consensus as they have a fixed number of nodes to consult, rather then a constantly changing x number that occur in decentralised systems. Last I heard, Ripple have 15 second confirmations. Bytemaster should know this is he truly was "objective as possible", his blog has turned into a hate campaign against Nxt with no right of reply. Comments would allow readers to judge the true value of what he is saying. He also writes as though he has found a big secret..

I can assure you there is not a shred of hate directed against NXT or any other crypto tribe.  We want NXT to succeed.
Truth is, we hardly ever think about other tribes except to try to be somewhat informed when interviewers ask us about some point of comparison (or to see what we can learn from them - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery).  It is entirely possible that improvements have been made since we last checked in.  Discussions like this help us find that out.

The only reason I am even engaged in this conversation at all is for the purpose of explaining that BitShares is exploring a different design space, with different design criteria, and a different set of optimization parameters.  And that our design is valid and competitive.  Our long term goals go far beyond the current functionality and many of our design decisions are made with that in mind.  Without an understanding of that vision and roadmap, we can understand why some of our decisions are not yet well understood.  But those who have taken the time to gaze down that road with Bytemaster are truly inspired.  Look at the scope of topics at Bytemaster.BitShares.org and you'll begin to get the idea.  He's not making any big secret about it.

Your definition of decentralization doesn't need to agree with ours.  You are exploring what you can accomplish along that design axis and that's great.  We hope it succeeds and have no need to argue about it except in self-defense.

My campaign is simply this - use the opportunity created by people stirring up controversy to tell our side of the story.

To prove that I am sincere, take a look at this recent article stimulated when Bytemaster and Vitalik were exchanging views on


Our position is clear:  we are still in the Cambrian Explosion phase of the crypto-revolution.  We need a lot of evolution happening all at once and need lots of species out there mutating.  We need continuing recombination of our open source crypto-DNA as the fastest possible path to replacement of the current system's evil dinosaurs.  We mammals need to stick together a little while longer!


Some of our ideas about "smart decentralization" we hope will inspire other alternatives to brute force decentralization. We hope that our self-funding model will inspire others to accelerate their development the same way.  We hope that our emphasis on building in profitability as a design requirement will point the way to everybody becoming more adapted for survival in whatever ecological niche they have chosen.

So any time we stop to engage with a tribe of fellow-warriors, it is only to share our insights (and defend them if necessary.)  We do not need to stay inside the bounds of the current community consensus of opinion.  In fact, we aim to break out of it and make new progress on the bleeding edge.

You'll note we never engage in hateful, ad hominum attacks.  Every post is aimed only at sharing our ideas.  If you find something useful in there you can use, why, you're welcome!

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 08:33:53 PM
#64
Pre-empt Stans next post: he is still assuming today's distributions are fixed and will never improve  Cheesy For a fair comparison of his model, he should be using Ripple as his 'vs'. I said previously that distributed models are quicker at achieving consensus as they have a fixed number of nodes to consult, rather then a constantly changing x number that occur in decentralised systems. Last I heard, Ripple have 15 second confirmations. Bytemaster should know this is he truly was "objective as possible", his blog has turned into a hate campaign against Nxt with no right of reply. Comments would allow readers to judge the true value of what he is saying. He also writes as though he has found a big secret..

Bump. You should test your definitions in the wider community.  I'll refrain from going into init, xeldel etc delegates and the 101. It is not a good look. I will leave you to your campaign.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 08:30:09 PM
#63
Put some research and factual numbers in and we could have a discussion.

Wow, I may have to up the size of Daedelus' fee for challenging me to extend my qualitative speculation here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10128438

Into something more quantitatively rigorous.

His challenge above just inspired Bytemaster (with some research help from chryspano of bitsharestalk.org) into publishing another article addressing this very topic.  

I really don't want to get into a war with any specific block chain tribe here, that's why I tried to use generic categories like POW, POS, and DPOS in my previous post without unnecessarily naming names. We view the NXT community as a valuable ally in the real fight against the current corrupt system.

But, since you asked so nicely for a concrete example, here's the article Bytemaster authored just for you ...


hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 08:10:21 PM
#62
When do I get my consultancy fee?   Cheesy

Send me your BitShare's ID and I'll send you 1000 BitShares.

Shall I just send it to Daedelus right now, or do I need to give you time to register?

 Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 253
January 12, 2015, 07:59:31 PM
#61
How many delegates will the 3 richest guys get? 30? No! They will get 0, and 100% of the delegates will be those selected by the majority composed of tiny stakeholders. If that doesn't make sense to you, go read how approval voting works.

Expand on this part pls. Why would they get 0 delegates? Won't each get 20% approval of the Bitshares stakes, voting for each other? 30% if they also vote for themselves? Which is more than the threashold for getting elected

There's no "threshold" for getting elected. Maybe you mean the current 10% lowest approval in our particular system, but that is also in the same system where the largest stakeholder has nowhere near 10%.

In my example I said to assume full voter participation, and to assume you have 3 guys with 10% stake each and the other 70% stake is split among tons of small stakeholders who vote in their own interest.

In this (extremely contrived) scenario, all 101 delegates would have 70% approval, while the 3 guys even if they all voted for each other would only have 30% approval.

If this is confusing to you please read the wiki on how approval voting works.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 07:40:53 PM
#60
Pre-empt Stans next post: he is still assuming today's distributions are fixed and will never improve  Cheesy For a fair comparison of his model, he should be using Ripple as his 'vs'. I said previously that distributed models are quicker at achieving consensus as they have a fixed number of nodes to consult, rather then a constantly changing x number that occur in decentralised systems. Last I heard, Ripple have 15 second confirmations. Bytemaster should know this is he truly was "objective as possible", his blog has turned into a hate campaign against Nxt with no right of reply. Comments would allow readers to judge the true value of what he is saying. He also writes as though he has found a big secret..
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 07:02:42 PM
#59
How many delegates will the 3 richest guys get? 30? No! They will get 0, and 100% of the delegates will be those selected by the majority composed of tiny stakeholders. If that doesn't make sense to you, go read how approval voting works.

Expand on this part pls. Why would they get 0 delegates? Won't each get 20% approval of the Bitshares stakes, voting for each other? 30% if they also vote for themselves? Which is more than the threashold for getting elected
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 06:04:05 PM
#58
sr. member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 253
January 12, 2015, 05:55:09 PM
#57
You're right I can't prove anything about distribution, but I'll claim that it doesn't matter. The point I was making is this:

Each share gets one vote *per potential delegate*. Suppose 3 guys own 10% each, so their coalition owns 30%, and everyone else owns a tiny fraction.

Now suppose everyone is a perfectly rational voter and there is maximum participation. Obviously that's a stretch but bear with me.

How many delegates will the 3 richest guys get? 30? No! They will get 0, and 100% of the delegates will be those selected by the majority composed of tiny stakeholders. If that doesn't make sense to you, go read how approval voting works.

Now suppose there is a coalition that owns 51% of the stake. How many delegates will they get, 51? No! They will get all of them!

In this sense you are right - majority ownership is complete ownership. That's how companies work. If you are in the minority and don't like policy elected by the majority, split off with your own DAC.

At the end of the day, 51% stakeholders rule and cannot be diluted by any large stakeholder without 51% approval.

My claim is that there is no 51% coalition that can coordinate to do anything but enforce property (BTS and bitasset) ownership. That's how all these consensus systems work, they hide the ability to do anything "bad" behind a coordination problem of getting 51% of the consensus metric.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
January 12, 2015, 05:49:55 PM
#56
Except that the *minimum* approval for any delegates is over 10% right now

Since voting is one vote per stake and not one vote per man, the wealthiest stakeholders have the means to form coalitions and elect themselves into permanent positions.

while the *maximum* owned by any individual is on the order of 1%.

I REALLY don't believe that one.  You can't prove this statement either.
sr. member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 253
January 12, 2015, 05:42:48 PM
#55
You realize BTS uses approval voting and not direct voting right?  (multi-winner approval voting:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting#Multiple_winners)

Quote
If they own 4.95% of the stake, they need to control five delegate positions.

Except that the *minimum* approval for any delegates is over 10% right now, while the *maximum* owned by any individual is on the order of 1%.

You can only get a delegate spot by appealing to the largest agreeing subset of BTS holders. This group will tend to vote in the interests of 51% shareholders.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
January 12, 2015, 05:37:07 PM
#54
Quote
The issue with Bitshares is that you have turned who is a "signing insider", as you call them, into a POLITICAL POSITION with the power to tax the rest of the stakeholders. 

This is where we disagree, I think. It is not a political position because the delegate has absolutely no influence over the inflation rate or DAC policy outside of what is approved *before he is elected* by the stakeholders.

We keep saying "the shareholders rule the delegates, not the other way around" but you just don't believe it.

There *is* a group of powerful insider who form a plutocracy - it's the majority shareholders! In this sense yes, BTS centralizes power in the hands of BTS holders (+bitAsset holders) at the expense of non-BTS holders.


Again, the fixation on the delegate cap is bizzare. We considered making it unlimited with block production proportional to approval, and concluded this would make it *too centralized*.

You are omitting the key word.  "The wealthiest shareholders rule the delegates."

It is absolutely a political position.  The wealthiest stakeholders are ELECTING individuals to forge on everyones' behalf.  It is in the wealthiest stakeholders best interest to levy taxation (inflation) to increase their wealth through the subsidies from the poor.  Seeing that it is acceptable for an individual to control multiple delegate positions, the wealthiest individuals can ensure that they aren't subject to this tax.  Each delegate position they control allows them to hold 0.99% of the stake tax free.  If they own 4.95% of the stake, they need to control five delegate positions.  Since voting is one vote per stake and not one vote per man, the wealthiest stakeholders have the means to form coalitions and elect themselves into permanent positions.  This creates a forging monopoly and initiates a policy of wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich.

"There *is* a group of powerful insiders who form a plutocracy - it's the wealthiest shareholders!  In this sense yes, BTS centralizes power in the hands of biggest BTS holders (+bitAsset holders) at the expense of the smaller BTS holders."
newbie
Activity: 46
Merit: 0
January 12, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
#53
Question:

Is it economically feasible to a mine in POW without joining a pool?
Is it economically feasible to join a pool that has less than 10% of the hashing power?

If it is not feasible then altruism is the primarily factor for the majority of miners to participate in POW.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
January 12, 2015, 05:28:47 PM
#52
When do I get my consultancy fee?   Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
January 12, 2015, 05:23:03 PM
#51
For the record, here is Bytemaster's latest blog article, offered up as a modest indication that he is indeed following the discussion here and refining the important take-aways for presentation to a wider audience.


I appreciate everybody who helped us refine the arguments.

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