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Topic: Is SatoshiDice illegal? (Read 3744 times)

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
This bull will try to shake you off. Hold tight!
March 31, 2013, 01:02:26 PM
#51
Sorry for bringing up an old post but I'm curious if you still hold this opinion that investing in sdice is risky from a legal sense. Do you still think that as  an investor in sidice you risk being prosecuted?
I do, though as a practical matter, this risk is very small. 18 USC 1955.

Quote
What do you think of Erik's argumentation JoelKatz?
I think it goes to the level of risk, not the legality. It comes down to an interpretation of 18 USC 1955(b)(1)(i), whether Satoshi Dice "is a violation of the law of a State or political subdivision in which it is conducted". That will come down to what locations are the ones "in which it is conducted" and whether it violates any laws of that subdivision. I can't specifically cite any subdivision in which it would be considered conducted nor any specific laws it violates, but if there are any, then anyone who "owns all or part of" the business is in violation of US law.

Also see 31 USC 5362(10)(A), "unlawful Internet gambling means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made". While this doesn't apply to owners directly, like most Federal crimes, you can be charged with aiding, abetting, or conspiring to commit violations, being an accomplice to a violation, and so on.

As a completely passive owner, though, I would think the risk would be very small.


Thank you so much JoelKatz for your critical view. I appreciate it highly.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 31, 2013, 12:05:18 PM
#50
Countries has a big debt with banks, this debt is pay with peoples taxes. If people wash money, then banks do not receive their money.

So banks put pressure on goverments and minor banks, they say:
- To goverment: "Make Gambling illegal, we want our share of peoples hard work".
- To minor banks: "Block wire transfer to bet websites"
- To credit cards and PayPal: "Block transaction to bet websites"


Now, about the legality of bitcoins, they are like the fantasy money the parks give you, or the money of some facebook games. This money is made for somebody else who is NOT a bank. And banks don't like competition, isn't it?
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
March 31, 2013, 11:47:28 AM
#49
US thinks offering online gambling to it's citizens is illegal,

if you do it, never fly into the US because you'll be arrested
http://www.cato.org/blog/uk-gambling-ceo-arrested-us-airport

However the World Trade Organization has said US is unfairly protecting it's domestic gambling market

Quote
the World Trade Organization authorized Antigua and Barbuda to violate intellectual property protections on American movies, books,
pharmaceuticals and other goods as compensation for United States policies that harmed the islands’ online gambling business.
http://www.antiguawto.com/wto/c2013_02_07_NYTimes_New_Front_Global_Wars.pdf
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
March 30, 2013, 10:08:13 PM
#48
Sorry for bringing up an old post but I'm curious if you still hold this opinion that investing in sdice is risky from a legal sense. Do you still think that as  an investor in sidice you risk being prosecuted?
I do, though as a practical matter, this risk is very small. 18 USC 1955.

Quote
What do you think of Erik's argumentation JoelKatz?
I think it goes to the level of risk, not the legality. It comes down to an interpretation of 18 USC 1955(b)(1)(i), whether Satoshi Dice "is a violation of the law of a State or political subdivision in which it is conducted". That will come down to what locations are the ones "in which it is conducted" and whether it violates any laws of that subdivision. I can't specifically cite any subdivision in which it would be considered conducted nor any specific laws it violates, but if there are any, then anyone who "owns all or part of" the business is in violation of US law.

Also see 31 USC 5362(10)(A), "unlawful Internet gambling means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made". While this doesn't apply to owners directly, like most Federal crimes, you can be charged with aiding, abetting, or conspiring to commit violations, being an accomplice to a violation, and so on.

As a completely passive owner, though, I would think the risk would be very small.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
American1973
March 30, 2013, 09:52:11 PM
#47
"lawyering" should be illegal.  The BAR association is a club of violence and control.  Most law is based on the Code Napoleon, and he was an asshead tyrant.

Law, is a weapon, masquerading as a service, for the most part.  Rich people can use lawyers as operators of law-as-weapon, and cause bankruptcy to people cannot afford counter-law costs.  Court, is a racket.

The mob is who runs gambling, and so, if you move in on their turf, they may break your kneecaps.  Try to get a lawyer to sue them, probably the judge will not see in your favor.  But the good part is this:  The mob will adopt bitcoins even slower than the gambling junkies.  So there is lots of money to be made of addicitons, via bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
This bull will try to shake you off. Hold tight!
March 30, 2013, 09:08:34 PM
#46
In another thread someone posted some smart lawyer speak as to why sdice is not illegal:

It is pretty simple to me. I do not want to end up in court or jail.

Isn't that the irony?

The State, which usurps the ability to use violence and intimidation against all others within its given georgraphic area, makes a law which makes an otherwise harmless activity with no victim illegal. This causes dislocations in the economy because of individual human actions. The dislocations create market incentive for entrepreneurs to meet the needs of the market. The greater the dislocations the greater the profit.

With the State nudging its nose into every area of the economy it is only creating more and more dislocations. Creative entrepreneurs are going to be able to make a boatload of money meeting market needs.

For example, look at the problems the State has created, which led to the rise of AirBnB or Uber and is resulting in economic censorship like this in NYC or taxi commission in Chicago?

Now, take a system that makes it so the buyer and seller don't even have a record whereby they could locate the other as it would be hashed and encrypted. But there could still be rating systems and reputation along with dispute resolution via judge.me.

Previously, the market needed to go through banks to settle trade using fiat currency. Cash could only operate to a particular scale but was infeasible in larger amounts as the drug cartels have found out.

But now with Bitcoin being censorship-resistant it is the invisible glue the economy has needed to route around all the governmental economic censorship and maintain the ability to price and settle trade. And there is currently tons of economic censorship which has created huge dislocations and made tons of market opportunity for creative entrepreneurs who figure out ways to route around it. Those who figure out censorship-resistant ways to allow individuals to barter and trade will be rewarded handsomely like Satoshi Dice. And in the process, market needs are met and violence is decreased (with Silk Road there is no turf for dealers to defend and therefore no need for decapitations).


But part of me is sceptical and thinks 'yeah right, as if judges care about the laws, if bitcoin becomes a thread, sdice will be an easy target'. I even fear that investors risk being prosecuted. Am I exaggerating?  
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
This bull will try to shake you off. Hold tight!
March 30, 2013, 08:57:29 PM
#45
Just to let you all know that online gambling is not illegal in the US. Players have nothing to fear from playing at online casinos or poker sites.
On the other hand, owning a portion of a gambling business that violates the laws of any State in which it conducts business is.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955


Sorry for bringing up an old post but I'm curious if you still hold this opinion that investing in sdice is risky from a legal sense. Do you still think that as an investor in sidice you risk being prosecuted?

On the sdice thread Erik recently replied:

Thank you for the update Erik. It would also be useful to have some clarity around your (and other owners / operators) residence, visitor and work status with respect to the USA. Could these be considered within the context of :

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/01/coder-charged-for-gambling-software/
and
http://reason.com/archives/2008/05/19/some-bets-are-off

for example ?




1) SatoshiDice is not a US company nor organization, nor is any part of it hosted in the US whatsoever.
2) I do not live in the US, though I am (unfortunately) a US citizen.
3) The couple other private owners are non-US residents and not US citizens.



What do you think of Erik's argumentation JoelKatz?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
August 24, 2012, 06:21:00 AM
#44
ok, i think bitcoin is not illegal even if you are operating a gamble website.

lets look at zynga poker. they are selling coins for money too but you are not allowed to change it to a currency.
It's not just they don't allow it, but they take technical measures to prevent it and don't intend it.

Quote
gambling sites in bitcoin is also like this!
They take technical measures to keep you from selling your bitcoins and don't intend you to make profits in national currencies? Try again.

Quote
so if bitcoin gambling is illegal then we can conclude that zynga poker is illegal and all other credit based game out there
Nope, sorry.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
August 24, 2012, 05:14:42 AM
#43
ok, i think bitcoin is not illegal even if you are operating a gamble website.

lets look at zynga poker. they are selling coins for money too but you are not allowed to change it to a currency.

gambling sites in bitcoin is also like this! so if bitcoin gambling is illegal then we can conclude that zynga poker is illegal and all other credit based game out there
donator
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
YOU WIN . WE PAY
August 23, 2012, 06:52:57 AM
#42
Just to let you all know that online gambling is not illegal in the US. Players have nothing to fear from playing at online casinos or poker sites.
On the other hand, owning a portion of a gambling business that violates the laws of any State in which it conducts business is.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955


This only apply for onshore (US based) operations not offshore entities.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
August 23, 2012, 06:33:37 AM
#41
Just to let you all know that online gambling is not illegal in the US. Players have nothing to fear from playing at online casinos or poker sites.
On the other hand, owning a portion of a gambling business that violates the laws of any State in which it conducts business is.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
August 23, 2012, 06:29:42 AM
#40
Just to let you all know that online gambling is not illegal in the US. Players have nothing to fear from playing at online casinos or poker sites.

The only illegal activity is the act of processing money (currencies, bitcoins were not yet recognize as currencies) to and from online gambling sites. As no third parties are involved in processing bitcoins to online gambling sites nothing is illegal in operating online gambling websites such as SD, at least for the moment!

more here: http://vegasclick.com/online/legal.html
well there you go, gambling is going to get "bitcoin" arrested :p... good luck with that one
legendary
Activity: 1148
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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
August 23, 2012, 06:20:07 AM
#39
Well Japan is weird, they must censor the pussy in their porn  Cheesy
donator
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
YOU WIN . WE PAY
August 23, 2012, 01:42:55 AM
#38
and for our US poker friends!

Aug 22 (Reuters) - A federal judge for the first time has given legal backing to something card sharks have known for ages: Poker is a game of skill, not chance.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/22/usa-crime-poker-idINL2E8JM4XR20120822
or
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html?_r=1
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
August 22, 2012, 08:34:17 PM
#37
In Japan there something called Pachinko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko with parlors everywhere. It's basically like slot machines (pokies), but with little ball bearings and maybe a little more skill. It took me a while to work it out, I still don't know the full story, but it's something like this:
Gambling with Pachinko is illegal in Japan.
Pachinko parlors can't pay you directly for your balls but give you tokens instead.
There just happens to be a separate establishment near every Pachinko parlor called a Kiosk (always seems to be written in English) which for some reason happens to have an interest in purchasing little tokens.

Bitcoins are legally a commodity of perceived value similar to those tokens. Any gambling with bitcoins would currently be perfectly legal.
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
August 22, 2012, 02:42:24 PM
#36
Good to know. Thanks for the link Smiley
donator
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
YOU WIN . WE PAY
August 22, 2012, 11:30:52 AM
#35
Just to let you all know that online gambling is not illegal in the US. Players have nothing to fear from playing at online casinos or poker sites.

The only illegal activity is the act of processing money (currencies, bitcoins were not yet recognize as currencies) to and from online gambling sites. As no third parties are involved in processing bitcoins to online gambling sites nothing is illegal in operating online gambling websites such as SD, at least for the moment!

more here: http://vegasclick.com/online/legal.html
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
August 22, 2012, 09:43:24 AM
#34
last time I've heard, if there is no real currency, gambling site are legal, and bitcoin is not real currency (not backed up by government), but I'm not a lawyer maybe there is a way around that in court.
If you can win a thing of value in a game of chance, it's a lottery.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
August 22, 2012, 08:37:41 AM
#33
last time I've heard, if there is no real currency, gambling site are legal, and bitcoin is not real currency (not backed up by government), but I'm not a lawyer maybe there is a way around that in court.
That's like saying they aren't taxable

if you can swap it for "real currency" then gambling with it is still gambling
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
August 22, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
#32
last time I've heard, if there is no real currency, gambling site are legal, and bitcoin is not real currency (not backed up by government), but I'm not a lawyer maybe there is a way around that in court.
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