Topic: Is stealing Bitcoins illegal? - page 7. (Read 24258 times)

He doesn't have to put it to the test. Hundreds of other people have done that for him. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of Bitcoin thefts over the years, amounting to millions of dollars worth of coins.

Prosecutions - 0.
Criminal charges brought - 0.
Arrests - 0.

I'd say the hypothesis was pretty well tested.

Also, I have no idea why you wish to claim with absolute certainty that Bitcoin theft would be regarded as a criminal offense by every court in the world, despite a lack of evidence for that point. You seem very passionate about this issue, to the point of being quite rude to those who disagree with you. Your passion makes me wonder if your conviction is based more on a kind of "Bitcoin zeal" rather than an intellectual conclusion that you have reached. The fact you make grandiose claims based on your assumptions (such as "Bitcoin theft would be recognized as theft by any country with a functioning legal system") makes me further question the rigor of your thought processes. Also, please forgive me if this sounds rude, but I've noticed you have problems with comprehension and a lack of critical faculties.

There are a few people on this forum who are so enamored with Bitcoin that they refuse to acknowledge has any shortcomings whatsoever, and they become irate when confronted with evidence to the contrary. From reading your post in this thread I believe you fall into this category, so there's not really much point in engaging with you. It would be like asking the Pope to consider the merits of open minded Agnosticism.

Are you out of your fucking tree? Those aren't the real underlying questions being asked. The morality of stealing Bitcoins is nothing to do with this thread.


This thread is about discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal."  If you find it a waste of time, then please don't post in this thread. Furthermore, I would suggest that you might find better uses of your time outside the legal subforum, since you don't seem to have an interest in the law.


Jesus, what is wrong with you?

If you want to live in a fantasy where the law has no impact on your life, then please, go and live that fantasy elsewhere. Certainly don't come in here and accuse us of living in a fantasy for acknowledging reality, you slowly melting cum-popsicle of a man.

Because no one has filed charges. Feel free to be the first. To be tested are the claims over who's effectively in control (game devs or users - not an issue in Bitcoin) and whether an EULA allowing theft in-game is lawful.

(I refer to earlier posts when it comes to the definition of goods in the Netherlands and EU)

I have no idea why you want to claim that theft of bitcoins isn't theft, but I suggest you put your hypothesis to the test if you're so sure of yourself.

This thread is, to my mind, the perfect example of the problems created by dogmatic belief in magical papers.  The bickering going on here about whether stealing Bitcoins is "illegal" or not according to this or that paper ("law"), is no different from the bickering going on in religious forums about whether homosexuality is a "sin" according to this or that Scriptural passage.

The real underlying questions being asked here are:

- Is taking someone's Bitcoins without his consent or under false pretesens wrong?  (Yes)
- If this were to happen to me, how would I go about recovering them?  (Spoiler alert: the men in blue costumes don't give a shit)

Discussing whether the contents of a piece of paper actually mean "stealing Bitcoins is illegal" is a waste of time that does nothing to answer the real underlying questions.

Snap out of the fantasy already, people.

I think that pretty nailed it.

Stealing bitcoins is not a crime....  but there is no way to 'steal' them without committing a crime.
IE you're not commiting theft when you take someone's bitcoins; you're commiting unauthorized computer access, you'd probably run afoul of some idenity theft laws, maybe get nailed on fraud?  Not sure would take some research.
But theft it's not.

The fundamental problem with calling it theft is you've equated bitcoins with 'real stuff' and when you've done that with out careful court rulings and defined laws you open up the door to all sorts of zany antics.

It's not my world.  It's the real world.
I can't prove a negitive. 
You find me someone that is charged and convicted of stealing a purely digital item and then we can talk.  Bitcoin maybe 'new' but computers have been around for a while so if it really is theft you should be able to find a case for us to discuss.

Ah okay, sorry for bothering you. Enjoy your little world where stealing is not thieving.

The question is "Is stealing Bitcoins illegal?"

http://www.synonym.com/definition/theft/

Is that really the road you want to go down?  Because I can tell you right now breach of contract is not theft.

The quality of the comments are really going down hill....


As I've stated from my very first post
(and a few since then)
The question is not illegal vs illegal the question is theft vs some other crime.



Please go away I've already covered the money argument.

No. Bicoin(s) represent contract(s). An agreement between the Bitcoin community and an individual who is part of this community. The rules of the community are written in the bitcoin protocol. Is that so complicated to understand?

Um, bitcoins are money.
Bitcoins also represent nothing; Just like the US dollar, Euro, Canadian dollar, Australian dollar, etc...

Is that really different?
Stealing bitcoins while in Mudville is illegal. Stealing bitcoins while in Langley is legal... How is that different from a double standard? -cough-

I can't really understand what position you're defending?

Is stealing bitcoins illegal or not?
You can't just say - depends who is the thief? Or, depends who is the owner? This is ridiculous!

No.
Coupons represent money.  Money is real. 
Bitcoins represent bitcoins...  Bitcoins may be worth money but they represent nothing.

The closet thing to bitcoin is MMORPG gold.  In fact the only difference is the fact that MMORPGs use a server and bitcoin is over a P2P network.

In all honesty it seems pretty clear to me that the answer to this problem is:

"Who knows?"

[With the exceptions of the countries I mentioned in the OP]

It's incredibly hard to determine something unless a legal precedent has been established.

When a case involving the theft of Bitcoins (or a very similar digital item) goes through a court and results in a prosecution, or Bitcoins are specifically named in a piece of legislation, then we won't have a clear answer to this question.

Sigh...
Stealing bit coins while in New Jersey is illegal.   Not from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction
And seriously you post New Jersey VS Iran/Syria and want to talk about double standards??? -cough-

And stealing bitcoins is always illegal because it likely violates the laws on unauthorized access.


I'm the only one that's posted a law that might cover Bitcoin.

There are no goods... why is this so hard for you to understand?
If I log into your trading account and transfer stock out I've stolen STOCK.
If I log into account and sell off all your corn futures I've stolen CORN.  (technically no... but good enough for an example)

If I use your private key to transfer out some bitcoins what have I stolen?  Bitcoins?  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BITCOINS.
Bitcoins are just an agreement between all the participants in the network to trade imgenary units with each other.

If you can just call anything with value a good then eve online is filled with criminals yet no one has ever been arrested?

No need, existing laws cover Bitcoin theft just fine. Numerous examples have been posted.


No, but I am European and know how unlikely it is for the EU court to have a different opinion. If it was likely the Dutch case would've already been on its way there. Other examples posted in this thread supports the same applying to the US.

If there are laws against something in the EU and US it's very unlikely for other countries who want to be part of global trade to take a different stance.

Cited for your convenience, the definition of 'goods' in the EU:


The law most certainly covers stealing of goods.

I'll go one step further: Stealing Bitcoins is illegal everywhere there has ever been a functioning legal system. How am I so sure? Because any legal system where stealing is not illegal is by definition not functioning. I presume the most common argument is going to be that there's some technicality a thief could get off on; but a system where the laws are interpreted in such a strict sense is just another kind of non-functioning brokenness. In a functioning legal system, the court doesn't care what was stolen or how it is done: just that it was stolen.

So what? I already acknowledged that there is a good chance that the Dutch legal would prosecute theft of Bitcoins. I appreciate you providing additional evidence to support that, but there is no need to be so combative about it. As you saw in the OP, I had already mentioned the Netherlands. I think it's more relevant to the debate if you bring up something I haven't already acknowledged, don't you? Many other people have made great contributions to the debate, but all you have done is reiterate a point I already made and try to somehow use it against me, haha.


Really? What a big assertion. EVERYWHERE there's a functioning legal system you say? Hmm...

I haven't seen you provide any relevant evidence from Columbian law, or the legal code of Burkina Faso.

Seems to me like you are using Dutch law as evidence for a global standard!

Don't you realise that:


 

I think you have been shmoking too much of those lovely Dutch spliffs, yesh?