Topic: Is there any way for casinos to cheat the provably fair? - page 2. (Read 3496 times)

Quote from: shanem on May 26, 2015, 08:32:21 AM

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

They cant change it once the hash is shown then its all done there. Even if the hash is shown, most people dont verify their rolls, due tot that if the house is thinking of cheating then they would probably be skipping the nonce instead since people wont be noticing if a nonce is missing or not

P.S : casino is designed with edge which means they will get more instead of losing more

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

999dice does this and the site is still standing right now. Players are quite a bunch there and most of them doesnt care and keep on rolling blindly even though there are alot of evidences that prove the site is a scam site

After i read alot info from all post from u above, can u give any recomended site that give real provably fair or at least alittle bit fair..

XinXan

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Quote from: jeannemadrigal2 on May 26, 2015, 03:39:36 PM

There will always be a way for the house to cheat. Is there a browser plugin to auto verify if it is fair? Because tbh someone placing lots of bets is very unlikely to check all the numbers. I know I would not. If you are betting fast and not notating the checks, then they may be able to cheat right in front of your face because you are not paying attention.

Seriously if someone made a browser extension that auto checked this stuff I bet you could sell it. Even if you only charged .05 btc, I bet you could make some money.

You are welcome for the awesome idea B)

Yeah but we already discussed that, no casino would do that because they would be eventually caught, of course most people wont verify each bet but when someone does and founds out the site was cheating, thats it, the site is dead.

If anyone else knows something that we dont, speak to us!

jeannemadrigal2

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

There will always be a way for the house to cheat. Is there a browser plugin to auto verify if it is fair? Because tbh someone placing lots of bets is very unlikely to check all the numbers. I know I would not. If you are betting fast and not notating the checks, then they may be able to cheat right in front of your face because you are not paying attention.

Seriously if someone made a browser extension that auto checked this stuff I bet you could sell it. Even if you only charged .05 btc, I bet you could make some money.

You are welcome for the awesome idea B)

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: XinXan on May 26, 2015, 02:18:22 PM

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

It is not impossible, but it is still possible since the house could skip 1 or 2 nonce for every X bet but PrimeDice wont be risking their reputation by cheating the rolls. They are making alot of BTC even without cheating.

Your friend can use this simple verifier to verify the rolls if he think the house is cheating the rolls http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

Actually it is about psychology state, people tend to blame the others if they lose something, i.e your friend blame PrimeDice for cheating the rolls because he lost there

jaberwock

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Quote from: XinXan on May 26, 2015, 02:18:22 PM

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

with so many people pissed about losing money, I think if PD could, people would not stop talking about it and either it would be corrected or PD would die

XinXan

hero member

Activity: 1064

Merit: 505

So it would be plain impossible for, primedice as an example, to cheat the rolls? I have a friend who played there, by my advice and he said that they were definitely cheating, i told him about provably fair but he still said they were cheaters so i was wondering if you could really cheat the system.

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: shanem on May 26, 2015, 08:32:21 AM

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

They cant change it once the hash is shown then its all done there. Even if the hash is shown, most people dont verify their rolls, due tot that if the house is thinking of cheating then they would probably be skipping the nonce instead since people wont be noticing if a nonce is missing or not

P.S : casino is designed with edge which means they will get more instead of losing more

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

999dice does this and the site is still standing right now. Players are quite a bunch there and most of them doesnt care and keep on rolling blindly even though there are alot of evidences that prove the site is a scam site

keepinquiet

full member

Activity: 420

Merit: 151

It's absolutely possible. 999dice.com does it. I called them out on hiding the client seed until you tell the server you're using one - so until you did that, they could roll anything they wanted.

After they "changed" it, now it's shown on every roll - but - they change your client seed to something that is generated on their server, on EVERY roll.

Anyone want to change that seed every roll? No? Pain in the ass?

It's absolutely possible to cheat. 999dice is the pioneer of that shit.

shanem

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Activity: 1344

Merit: 1000

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

LiQuidx

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: XinXan on May 26, 2015, 07:42:08 AM

Quote from: LiQuidx on May 26, 2015, 07:36:55 AM

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?

In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0 if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

Quote from: LiQuidx on May 26, 2015, 07:36:55 AM

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

Yes you play against the odds but when the house edge is so small its suspicious they managed to win so much in such short amount of time. Im not going to say any names, apart from 999dice wich made 3.5k btc already with a 0.1% house edge in a really short time but i can say definitively that they are scam.

There was a thread about 999dice because the hash is not reveled to you unless you press a button.. In that sense they can scam because they belong the category mentioned above (they don't show you the hash beforehand unless you press the button).

XinXan

hero member

Activity: 1064

Merit: 505

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?

In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0 if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

Yes you play against the odds but when the house edge is so small its suspicious they managed to win so much in such short amount of time. Im not going to say any names, apart from 999dice wich made 3.5k btc already with a 0.1% house edge in a really short time but i can say definitively that they are scam.

LiQuidx

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?

In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0 if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

XinXan

hero member

Activity: 1064

Merit: 505

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?

In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0 if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier