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Topic: Is there any way for casinos to cheat the provably fair? - page 3. (Read 3512 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.


I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Yes exactly. There are verifies that given some input will calculate all your rolls.
You can find the verifiers here for some sites.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1414
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier






I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 505
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.


I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Nonce is an increasing number that is added to the client seed you choose. So for example if your seed is ABCDEFGHIJKL the first roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL0 the 2nd roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL1 the 3rd ABCDEFGHIJKL2 and so on.

AFAIK nonce isnt added in the last characters of the   client seed, there is some calculations on that.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Nonce is an increasing number that is added to the client seed you choose. So for example if your seed is ABCDEFGHIJKL the first roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL0 the 2nd roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL1 the 3rd ABCDEFGHIJKL2 and so on.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 505
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls


Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1414
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Hey there. If they provide the server seed before you make the roll and you also provide the client roll then no. You can see the scheme that is used to calculate the rolls and you have that info before you make the roll so you can verify it afterwards.
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 505
I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?
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