Is TradeFortress breaking the law? - page 4.

QuantPlus

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: AliceWonder on July 15, 2013, 01:27:20 PM

Ripple is a scam.

Quote

Ripple is a coin funded by Google Ventures, and Google is not a criminal actor:
http://gigaom.com/2013/05/14/google-ventures-invests-in-opencoin-the-firm-behind-bitcoin-exchange-ripple/

Oh please, Google is extremely dirty.
I'll allow Oracle Java on my machine but I won't allow Google Chrome.
I don't trust google.

I think google's interest in ripple is to integrate it into their payment services so that you have to have a google ID to use ripple.

So there is an ulterior motive to this.

Since Viceroy raised Google as an issue...
Ripple does not even appear on Google Ventures web site...
I think Google is waiting for Ripple to keel over...
Then they will peel off the Good Stuff... and integrate it into Google Wallet.

DiamondCardz

legendary

Activity: 1134

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Quote from: scotaloo on July 14, 2013, 09:45:38 AM

He also gave one persons ID to DiamondCardz. I have been in contact with the person who has had their ID stolen.

Fake, not stolen. It was an attempt to trick you so that the funds you stole could be returned to it's rightful owner.

And why should we trust you? You attempted to extort me (I sent email logs to a trusted member) and even posted my "dox". 'cept it wasn't my dox, you failure.

Quote from: scotaloo on July 13, 2013, 07:10:33 PM

Quote from: DiamondCardz on July 13, 2013, 07:09:11 PM

Okay then. Wink

I'm absolutely terrified, not.

Go fuck yourselves.

You've hit #5 dude, well done, your the first person under 18 to make our list, good for you! Your request will be processed within 72 hours.

Let me guess, you were hoping we'd just list out everything we have on you? doesn't work like that, only for some people, we only show our cards when it's obvious what we have.

15VhZxXSqiepiGPuuTCEWhXatfBCXbZUws
13v1hQUg5qWst1VyhiEcx9NaVDHJaLCkK7
1MaP6An8sgT7hZ8ADZcTU7ZNoJxatRZLc3
1Diaz9Nhs8d8GEXcwTJQKDkwzKj34UH2r4
1GtyFncEkRqiNrJPpg8P2Ue5mV6LQSgSL8
15jwt6y5Bn3oYB2ya99kNwm1WM3bfisixh

before you say it, we know they are old, you use inputs.io now instead of blockchain.

AliceWonder

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 09:44:25 AM

1) He *allegedly* runs an illegal bank like entity (allowing certificates of deposit) at his hidden domain "Coinlenders".

I'm not familiar with banking laws where he is located so it would be stupid for me to conjecture on that.
I personally think investing in his lending thing is a bad idea but that doesn't make it illegal. I thought investing in Apple was a bad idea too *doh*

Quote

2) He has no idea how to protect customers and is likely using his websites to *allegedly* steal passwords:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/coinchat-doesnt-salt-or-use-a-strong-hash-algo-254776

I suspect he does know how to protect customers.
As far as stealing password go, that's a pretty serious charge that needs some backup.

with respect to not salting the passwords, not he mentioned migration. He's right, every user would have to generate a new password if he changed from no salt to using a salt. If someone gets the database dump, what's at that site that is damaging to users?

Quote

3) He *allegedly* owns, operates and promotes the idea that "ripple is a scam":
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ripplescamorg-is-accepting-guest-posts-post-your-opinion-196813
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/i-was-offered-550-to-say-that-ripple-is-a-scam-212730

Ripple is a scam.

Quote

Ripple is a coin funded by Google Ventures, and Google is not a criminal actor:
http://gigaom.com/2013/05/14/google-ventures-invests-in-opencoin-the-firm-behind-bitcoin-exchange-ripple/

Oh please, Google is extremely dirty.
I'll allow Oracle Java on my machine but I won't allow Google Chrome.
I don't trust google.

I think google's interest in ripple is to integrate it into their payment services so that you have to have a google ID to use ripple.

Quote

4) He offers a free "mixing service" to money launderers and to, allegedly, wash his own ill gotten gains.

Mixing services are very important for businesses. Without them, your competition can find out information about customers and suppliers that you don't want public.

Quote

Scam accusations:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-is-tradefortress-a-scammer-trusted-forum-member-lol-151880

I can't comment on that.

Quote

This forum is a joke when default trust is given to suspected criminals like TradeFortress.
(Trust: 2: -1 / +82(82) )

Help me build a new forum here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/seeking-a-team-to-develop-bitcointalk-20-forums-apply-within-244678

So there is an ulterior motive to this.

tinus42

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Activity: 784

Merit: 501

Quote from: CIYAM on July 15, 2013, 12:45:17 PM

Quote from: forensick on July 15, 2013, 04:03:21 AM

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved.you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. Roll Eyes

Good luck with enforcing that in China (like any country that isn't a puppet of the US the only laws that matter here are its own).

I can't remember exactly when so much of the rest of the world decided that US law can apply anywhere but I am very glad that China says "fuck off - your laws mean nothing here".

Australia is also a servant to the US and WILL extradite their own citizens, even when they never set foot on US soil. Like this unfortunate young man who pirated software owned by US corporations:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/05/06/1178390140855.html

CIYAM

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Activity: 1890

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: forensick on July 15, 2013, 04:03:21 AM

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved.you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. Roll Eyes

Good luck with enforcing that in China (like any country that isn't a puppet of the US the only laws that matter here are its own).

I can't remember exactly when so much of the rest of the world decided that US law can apply anywhere but I am very glad that China says "fuck off - your laws mean nothing here".

forensick

sr. member

Activity: 376

Merit: 250

Quote from: tinus42 on July 15, 2013, 12:01:11 PM

Quote from: forensick on July 15, 2013, 04:03:21 AM

Quote from: ranlo on July 14, 2013, 10:47:20 PM

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 10:32:24 PM

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so. That is illegal. Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law. This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered. in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law. Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity. If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved. A few years ago a Dutch DJ was extradited to the US and served time there for selling drugs to an American in the Netherlands. Yes the Netherlands extradites its own citizens for offences committed in the Netherlands.

Also "aliens" (non US-ians) have no rights in the American court system. So you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. Roll Eyes

yes, you understand it good. It is a nonsense at all, dangerous precedence as we all made some crime, at least when prism and similar programs collect our emails, statuses on social network etc. I think every person commit about 3 crimes a day in developed world. it is very sad that law, which should protect people mostly against its governement, destroyed the princilples of old Romanian or common law and we live in a world of... can´t find word which would suit. Only vulgar :-D

tinus42

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Activity: 784

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Quote from: forensick on July 15, 2013, 04:03:21 AM

Quote from: ranlo on July 14, 2013, 10:47:20 PM

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 10:32:24 PM

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so. That is illegal. Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law. This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered. in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law. Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity. If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved. A few years ago a Dutch DJ was extradited to the US and served time there for selling drugs to an American in the Netherlands. Yes the Netherlands extradites its own citizens for offences committed in the Netherlands.

Also "aliens" (non US-ians) have no rights in the American court system. So you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. Roll Eyes

Viceroy

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Thank you for that response QuantPlus. Now that we have a solid foundation on that matter I want to have it end in this thread. It is clear that there are strong opinions about ripple being a scam or illegal, but the company is easy to find and if they are breaking the law the regulators know how to get ahold of them. Now let's shift the focus back to TF, the central character in this OP.

Quote from: Explodicle on July 15, 2013, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: Viceroy on July 15, 2013, 11:03:31 AM

Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins?

Everyone who values their privacy. For example if you want to buy porn and don't want some cyberstalker to send a list of sites to your mother.

Yea, if you afraid to buy porn you probably shouldn't be looking at it. Real men are not afraid to buy things that might be embarrassing to a ten year old.

If you want anonymity, buy it with cash. Bitcoin is not anonymous. Every transaction is recorded in a public log.

QuantPlus

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 11:39:04 PM

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws. This thread is about TradeFortress.

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so. If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is. (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer. There must be something to their claims, don't you think?

Even so I think there is something to my claim. Unless you have proof to the contrary.

Dude, FINCEN has 300 employees...
They just go after what is politically expedient.

Ripple is 100% illegal from top to bottom...
In terms of the SEC (securities), FINCEN (fiat), Futures Commissions (commodities), IRS (Tax Compliance)...
Ripple REFUSES to provide timestamps for transactions...
And it's impossible to download even the most basic Trading Report that is Tax Compliant.

So OpenCoin has made a deliberate CHOICE to run a global money laundering network.

The whole TF debacle with Ripple back in April or whatever...
TF luckily exposed an VERY COMPLEX default setting in the Ripple Client regarding Trust Lines...
That was designed to allow sophisticated users to FLEECE ordinary people...
By substituting junk IOUs for quality IOUs via "rippling".

Here is the very scary OpenCoin discussion about this...
Notice only ONE person (Vinnie Falco)...
Is in favor of extending ANY protection to ordinary users...
So the core OpenCoin position is to screw early adopters and ordinary people.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues/748

OpenCoin lied point blank about this entire incident on their official web site...
Which is what they do every time there is a problem.

There have been many instances of Ripple users having funds stolen...
OpenCoin just says, oh wow, it was obviously your crappy password.

Explodicle

hero member

Activity: 950

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Quote from: Viceroy on July 15, 2013, 11:03:31 AM

Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins?

Everyone who values their privacy. For example if you want to buy porn and don't want some cyberstalker to send a list of sites to your mother.

fm1234

member

Activity: 68

Merit: 10

posted by Inedible:

Quote

Wait, isn't this just illegal rather than a scam?

The two words have very, very different meanings.

This. Seconded.

Frank

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

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I just realized that TradeFortress offers a "free mixing service". Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins?

"Bitcoin looks primed for money laundering"
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/18/bitcoin-money-laundering/

Inedible

hero member

Activity: 700

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What doesn't kill you only makes you sicker!

Wait, isn't this just illegal rather than a scam?

The two words have very, very different meanings.

forensick

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Activity: 376

Merit: 250

Quote from: ranlo on July 14, 2013, 10:47:20 PM

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 10:32:24 PM

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so. That is illegal. Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law. This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered. in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law. Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity. If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

Bitcoinpro

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Activity: 1344

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Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 11:39:04 PM

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws. This thread is about TradeFortress.

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so. If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is. (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer. There must be something to their claims, don't you think?

Even so I think there is something to my claim. Unless you have proof to the contrary.

show us the proof

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws. This thread is about TradeFortress.

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so. If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is. (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer. There must be something to their claims, don't you think?

Even so I think there is something to my claim. Unless you have proof to the contrary.

ranlo

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1007

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 10:32:24 PM

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so. That is illegal. Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law. This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered. in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law. Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity. If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so. That is illegal. Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law. This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered. in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law. Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity. If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

ranlo

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1007

Quote from: Viceroy on July 14, 2013, 09:33:16 PM

I was challenging his position, it's all conjecture with no basis. I am asking a question in the law forum and his answer sounded informative yet lacked substance. So I asked for clarity. I do not believe a company/person/firm can offer bank-like services without a state and/or federal charter.

While certainly not a definitive source here is a definition worth noting:

bank

An organization, usually a corporation, chartered by a state or federal government, which does most or all of the following: receives demand deposits and time deposits, honors instruments drawn on them, and pays interest on them; discounts notes, makes loans, and invests in securities; collects checks, drafts, and notes; certifies depositor's checks; and issues drafts and cashier's checks.

Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/401/bank.html

First of all, what you're asking is based on American laws. He's not from the United States; he's from Australia. I do not know how their laws work as I do not reside there and as such have had no real reason to look into them. As far as I know, though, they have never made a statement about Bitcoin being the same as money there; what the United States says is irrelevant here.

Viceroy

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Activity: 924

Merit: 501

I was challenging his position, it's all conjecture with no basis. I am asking a question in the law forum and his answer sounded informative yet lacked substance. So I asked for clarity. I do not believe a company/person/firm can offer bank-like services without a state and/or federal charter.

While certainly not a definitive source here is a definition worth noting:

bank

An organization, usually a corporation, chartered by a state or federal government, which does most or all of the following: receives demand deposits and time deposits, honors instruments drawn on them, and pays interest on them; discounts notes, makes loans, and invests in securities; collects checks, drafts, and notes; certifies depositor's checks; and issues drafts and cashier's checks.

Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/401/bank.html

Topic: Is TradeFortress breaking the law? - page 4. (Read 11042 times)