Italian League Prediction Thread (Serie A) - page 338.

barisbilgili

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Quote from: Farma on August 21, 2024, 12:26:34 AM

Napoli still lacks the players that Conte wants even though in the first match they dominated the match but they failed to maximize the ball into goals and I think he needs a striker and Conte asked for Lukaku's finish as soon as possible, it was clear how they couldn't maximize so many opportunities so in the second half they conceded 3 goals from the opponent, this is a difficult start for Conte and his players, there are many things that Conte must pay attention to to restore Napoli's glory and I hope it will work under Conte if full support comes from Napoli's management.

In the second match they will play against Bologna at home I think this must be maximized to get their first 3 points this season, because Bologna is not a strong team like last season they have started to weaken and this is an important match for Conte and his players to realize the dream that is still open to be in the top four of Serie A, considering that Bologna also drew with Udinese in the first week and I think it will be easy for Napoli at home when hosting Bologna.

Napoli's front line is indeed a problem now, it is clear that in their first match, Napoli's front line did not perform optimally and they could not even score a single goal even though they had many opportunities.
A 3-goal defeat in the first match will certainly make Napoli's team even more difficult, mentally and in terms of confidence, this team will be quite depressed and that is a difficult task for Conte.

And regarding Lukaku, I think regardless of whether the transfer will be realized or not, at least Napoli's management must also immediately resolve the problem with Osimhen because even if Lukaku does not come, Napoli can still use Osimhen to improve their front line.

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Quote from: SmartCharpa on August 20, 2024, 12:15:21 PM

Quote from: Sexylizzy2813 on August 20, 2024, 06:14:49 AM

I believe the Lukeman case is as a result of them losing to Madrid, I feel he wasn't happy with that loss and if you check all these Italian clubs always have this one season wonder, that's they perform better in the first season and after that they become awful in the next season, I think that's another reason why Lukeman should leave but still he made a wise choice by leaving the side. The player needs a better club like PSG that are coming for him and I know he'll excel in the French league.
Atalanta need to continue with this form since all other big clubs are losing that strength of getting the job done, Inter Milan especially, they suppose to show why they are the champions of Italian league last season but they played a draw but that shouldn't be why we have to say they're going to perform badly, we just have to wait and even look at how the Atalanta side will play out their 4-5 games before we can say they're good to go.

I don't think the club discussed Lookman's want to leave the club before the Super Cup final against Real Madrid. Atalanta played an incredible game against Real Madrid, drawing in the first half but failing to handle the pressure and conceding two goals in the second half, Atalanta's performance wasn't as good at the beginning of last season as they had at the end of last season, they seemed like they had a difficult time starting the season, Atalanta's beginning this season was different from last season's, and they won the Europa League last season, I have no idea why Lookman decided to leave, perhaps he wants to play for another big team rather than staying this season.

I expected Inter Milan to win their game against Genoa because they won the league last season. I agree with you that we need to wait for them to play their next four to five games to see how they will play, but it looks poor for Inter Milan as they won the league Champions last season; they could have started the season with three points, but they ended up sharing it.

I'm not really saying it was because of the game they lost to Madrid, is like he isn't too happy about the situation after losing that game and they weren't bad in the first half but after that they couldn't replicate what they did in the first half and they should have kept that composure because the Madrid side wasn't as deadly as they used to be. They lost because they lost focus in the game.
For Lukeman to leave it might be that he feels is time to go and I think is best for him with the likes of Man City, Arsenal and PSG eying to get him is a step up for him, after all he has done perfectly well since leaving Everton, with these clubs hoping to get him then he should leave because with Atalanta is will be very difficult to get another trophy, not that I'm saying they can't compete to get trophies but it won't be like last season and the player (Lukeman) needs more than what he got last season.

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Quote from: Farma on August 21, 2024, 12:26:34 AM

In the second match they will play against Bologna at home I think this must be maximized to get their first 3 points this season, because Bologna is not a strong team like last season they have started to weaken and this is an important match for Conte and his players to realize the dream that is still open to be in the top four of Serie A, considering that Bologna also drew with Udinese in the first week and I think it will be easy for Napoli at home when hosting Bologna.

It was unthinkable that a Napoli team would lose so badly against Hellas Verona. Napoli is dominating the match. Napoli players have 67% ball possession. But at the end of 90 minutes, Napoli lost the match by a big margin of 3-0. Napoli players could not score a single goal in this match despite many attacks. I missed osimhen badly in this match.

Napoli had 67% of the ball possession and had a total of 14 shots. On the other hand, Hellas Verona managed to score four goals with only 9 shots. From this it can be understood that both Napoli's defense and forward lineup are quite weak.

Napoli will play against Bologna in the next match. Firstly, Bologna is not a strong opponent, and secondly, this match is Napoli's home match. So it is hoped that Napoli will not make the same mistake in the second match. In the second match, the team is likely to be able to score full points.

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Quote from: Luzin on August 20, 2024, 11:14:31 PM

Quote from: Jegileman on August 20, 2024, 03:32:25 PM

Watching how Napoli started off the season and losing the match to a three goals to nothing will immediately bring out the perception that they will not still end this season in a better position.

I didn't even expect this result. Napoli was very in control of the game but they couldn't score. Just look at Napoli's statistics, I laughed. Conte still hopes to bring in 4 new players to compete with other teams this season. Napoli's second match will be against Bologna, Bologna is not a weak team, of course Conte also has to work hard because he does not have the players he wants.

Napoli still lacks the players that Conte wants even though in the first match they dominated the match but they failed to maximize the ball into goals and I think he needs a striker and Conte asked for Lukaku's finish as soon as possible, it was clear how they couldn't maximize so many opportunities so in the second half they conceded 3 goals from the opponent, this is a difficult start for Conte and his players, there are many things that Conte must pay attention to to restore Napoli's glory and I hope it will work under Conte if full support comes from Napoli's management.

In the second match they will play against Bologna at home I think this must be maximized to get their first 3 points this season, because Bologna is not a strong team like last season they have started to weaken and this is an important match for Conte and his players to realize the dream that is still open to be in the top four of Serie A, considering that Bologna also drew with Udinese in the first week and I think it will be easy for Napoli at home when hosting Bologna.

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Quote from: TastyChillySauce00 on August 20, 2024, 11:34:32 PM

Quote from: Josefjix on August 20, 2024, 02:14:57 PM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 20, 2024, 01:57:24 PM

The poor result in the first match certainly made Conte very upset. In fact, fans and a number of betting exchanges favored Conte to achieve his first victory. Yes, even though this is just the start of the league, there is still a chance for Conte to improve his strategy. Osimhen may be on his way out because he is no longer in Conte's plans, it seems that Lukaku will be the new mainstay for Napoli's attack line.

Napoli lost 3 nil to Verona in the opening matchday in Italy. This is really a dissapointing result for the Parthenopeans and not improving. However they will do better in their next game, they just have to stick around for better results. Napoli headcoach, Antonio Conte is new to the team and there's basically more sectors and planning to put in place.

Victor Osimhen should be having terrible moment because he's not available to deliver his team. There's definitely huge progress for the club but it will definitely take lengthy period of time with the new coach incharge.

Napoli was utter shite in the game against Verona. And it seems Napoli players have struggled to adapt to a new setup every few months. Napoli played from 4 defender, then 5 defender system under Mazzari. Then again, it switched back to 4 defender system under Calzona. Now, it's back to 5 defender system under Conte. It's probably making them confused.
Also, Napoli's defense is worsening. I can't believe how I've seen worse defenders (Juan Jesus, Rrahmani, and Di Lorenzo) play together at the back. And think Juan Jesus is also the worst defender in Serie A too.

Well I actually don't think the defender's in this Napoli team is that horrible, it's just boils down to adapting to the playing pattern of Antonio conte, which they are really finding it difficult to graps, ok let's look at the kind of performance that Napoli put in against Verona, do you think this Napoli team is that average to perform so poorly like that?
Though they are actually missing the presence of their star attacker in victor osimhen but his presence wouldn't change and solve all the problems in this Napoli team, so I believe that they will surely improve as the season goes by if they can continue to work in the right direction.

Lastly, I think that Napoli should try as much as possible to conclude all their transfer dealings so that their should be no distractions, because the uncertainty around the transfer of victor osimhen and other's is actually affecting the team negatively, I think that it should be addressed very fast, so that their would be no distractions again

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Como's first defeat this season against Juventus, seems to have given a pretty hard slap and gives another picture that the squad they have is not yet fully able to compete in Serie A. This has now been responded to well by coach Cesc Fabregas who will bring in 3 new players before the summer ends.

As has been revealed, there is a former senior Barcelona player, Sergi Roberto, who is already full of experience and his position in the back line is very good to improve Como's defense. Then there is a Real Madrid academy player, Nico Paz, who wants to increase his playing minutes in Italy considering that it will be very difficult for him to compete in the main team if he is still at Real Madrid. Then there is one more player from Manchester City, Maximo Perrone and honestly I have never heard of this player.

What is clear is that this will further increase the options for coach Cesc Fabregas to face Serie A this season and of course to get their first points in the standings.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 20, 2024, 02:14:57 PM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 20, 2024, 01:57:24 PM

The poor result in the first match certainly made Conte very upset. In fact, fans and a number of betting exchanges favored Conte to achieve his first victory. Yes, even though this is just the start of the league, there is still a chance for Conte to improve his strategy. Osimhen may be on his way out because he is no longer in Conte's plans, it seems that Lukaku will be the new mainstay for Napoli's attack line.

Napoli lost 3 nil to Verona in the opening matchday in Italy. This is really a dissapointing result for the Parthenopeans and not improving. However they will do better in their next game, they just have to stick around for better results. Napoli headcoach, Antonio Conte is new to the team and there's basically more sectors and planning to put in place.

Victor Osimhen should be having terrible moment because he's not available to deliver his team. There's definitely huge progress for the club but it will definitely take lengthy period of time with the new coach incharge.

Napoli was utter shite in the game against Verona. And it seems Napoli players have struggled to adapt to a new setup every few months. Napoli played from 4 defender, then 5 defender system under Mazzari. Then again, it switched back to 4 defender system under Calzona. Now, it's back to 5 defender system under Conte. It's probably making them confused.
Also, Napoli's defense is worsening. I can't believe how I've seen worse defenders (Juan Jesus, Rrahmani, and Di Lorenzo) play together at the back. And think Juan Jesus is also the worst defender in Serie A too.

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Quote from: HajiBagi on August 20, 2024, 03:13:56 AM

Quote from: rendravolt on August 20, 2024, 01:34:42 AM

In fact, in the first week there were only four teams that were able to collect 3 points and the rest were dominated by many teams that achieved 1 point. I think Serie A this time is quite competitive where each team regardless of how strong or weak their opponent is, they will not just give up accepting the existing results and instead they try to fight it by minimizing the results of defeat.
I am very happy with what happened and another fact where the strong teams that were regulars at the top last season such as Milan, Inter, and Bologna are in the middle of the standings makes me sure that all three will start this season quite late. But it is still early and everything can still change quickly.
Anyway, Atalanta leads the standings with a goal difference advantage and I think it is very difficult to shift them if next week they still have a goal party like they did when facing Lecce.

The first week of Series A league was boring to me because some teams that I expected to play well did not play well, most especially teams like Napoli and Roma, this season is going to be tough for these teams because seeing their first game shows that they need some serious players in their squad, Napoli can not defeat Hellas Verona and Roma can not defeat Cagliari, I’m so ashamed of this two teams, Napoli own is worse because they look like a team that will go to a relegation zone this season.
Napoli needs to get another striker immediately because the team needs a striker, their first game showed that they need a striker and since Victor Osimhen wants to leave I think they should get another striker immediately if not this season is not going to be easy for them, and as for Roma they need to be serious because it looks like Dybala absence is about to affect them in the midfield position, so they need to serious in their next game.

I would disagree with @HajiBagi. Winning or losing doesn’t matter that much. We have seen many unpredictable things in this first week of play. Both big clubs from Milan, AC Milan and Inter Milan have drawn which was a shock to me. And they both have drawn with the same scoreline which is also a funny coincidence.

Napoli was also destroyed by Verona. This was a big upset to me. This match was also the first match under the management of Antonio Conte. I knew Napoli would have a tough time in this match, but that 3-0 defeat was pretty unexpected to me. The Lazio vs Venezia match was also pretty enjoyable as well.

Juventus also did pretty well in the first match of this season under the management of Thiago Motta. He did very well in his first Serie A match as the manager of the team, although the opposition was pretty weak. A little disappointed from De Rossi and his team AS Roma as they weren’t able to grab the 3 points at the start of the season. The match was pretty boring too I must say.

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Quote from: Jegileman on August 20, 2024, 03:32:25 PM

Watching how Napoli started off the season and losing the match to a three goals to nothing will immediately bring out the perception that they will not still end this season in a better position.

I didn't even expect this result. Napoli was very in control of the game but they couldn't score. Just look at Napoli's statistics, I laughed. Conte still hopes to bring in 4 new players to compete with other teams this season. Napoli's second match will be against Bologna, Bologna is not a weak team, of course Conte also has to work hard because he does not have the players he wants.

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Quote from: bering on August 20, 2024, 02:29:03 PM

When Gasperini has decide to bought Mateo Retegui from Genoa seems this is very good decision because apparently this player can be played as the replacement of Gianluca Scamacca and just like we know on pre season tour Gianluca Scamacca got the injured and he have to rested at least 6 month which this situation pushing Gasperini to find other striker and when he was choose Mateo Retegui i was doubt this player can performing well with Atalanta

But clearly i was wrong about that because when the match against Lecce Mateo Retegui can make a brace and i think 25 million as transfer fees to gets him is really worthy because probably Mateo Retegui can scores more goals with Atalanta

Both Retegui and Scamacca did not play well for Italy in Euro 2024 and they are at same level which is not world-class. The decision to bring Retegui to Atalanta is good one and helpful for Atalanta to temporarily replace Scamacca and waiting time for his recovery and return in many more months. They can not expect too much from Retegui who almost reaches his limits and can not develop his career more.

Atalanta and Gasperini after the last successful season will aim at some more ambitious targets in this season but in Italy, there is a hottest example of Napoli. After winning Scudetto, they failed to defend it in the last season and in a first match of this season, they continued to show another poor performance.

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Quote from: Mame89 on August 20, 2024, 05:41:56 PM

It is only natural that Cesc Fabregas' team suffered a crushing defeat in their first match, because they are a newly promoted team and many of their new players have not been able to blend in well, especially as you said, their players cannot be relied on when facing a team like Juventus. Cesc Fabregas will certainly continue to work hard so that the next match can be much better at least he must be able to bring his team to stay in Serie A.

For Juventus, being able to achieve a convincing 3-0 victory over a promoted club like Como in their first match in Serie A this season is certainly a positive thing considering that other big teams did not get a win. So this is a good start for Juventus to be able to compete for the Serie A trophy, and Thiago Motta in this match has also started to show his fangs, with young players taking important roles. Juventus will be an interesting team to watch in Serie A this season.

I also think Cesc Fabregas team loss was not surprising because they are new to league and still getting used to playing together. But it is great to see Fabregas working hard to improve and stay in league. Meanwhile Juventus big win is great start to their season especially since other top teams did not win. Their coach Thiago Motta is doing good job and young players are stepping up. This means Juventus has a good chance of winning the league title. I'm excited to see how they do this season and think they have a good chance.

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Quote from: Majestic-milf on August 20, 2024, 12:11:25 PM

When you play against a side that hasn't tasted Serie A action for 21 years, you can't say Juventus tried. It's like they were expected to thrash them more than the two goals that was recorded and although they had one of their goal chopped off, I won't call their performance stellar, unlike the way Atalanta walloped Lecce. If you had seen the game you'd know notice Juventus struggling to get their acts right. Severally, Cesc Fabregas' side had the opportunity to punish Juvefor their mistakes but they too couldn't be relied on.
Juventus got their first three points of the season and at least this can ward off critics away from Thiago Motta being that he didn't lose his first game because I'm sure many were feeling that judging by their performance in pre season, maybe they will lose or draw because that has been the pattern majority of the big boys followed.

It is only natural that Cesc Fabregas' team suffered a crushing defeat in their first match, because they are a newly promoted team and many of their new players have not been able to blend in well, especially as you said, their players cannot be relied on when facing a team like Juventus. Cesc Fabregas will certainly continue to work hard so that the next match can be much better at least he must be able to bring his team to stay in Serie A.

For Juventus, being able to achieve a convincing 3-0 victory over a promoted club like Como in their first match in Serie A this season is certainly a positive thing considering that other big teams did not get a win. So this is a good start for Juventus to be able to compete for the Serie A trophy, and Thiago Motta in this match has also started to show his fangs, with young players taking important roles. Juventus will be an interesting team to watch in Serie A this season.

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Quote from: giorgione on August 20, 2024, 04:22:15 AM

Quote from: Farma on August 20, 2024, 02:03:35 AM

A very good start for Motta as the new Juventus ..

If Thiago Motta started well as Juve manager and they scored 3 goals without resistance against Como, then congratulations to him! But dont worry, Como is not a strong team: we will see Juventus versus real team.

It was not about the goals scored in my opinion. Those who saw the game knew how many goals Dusan Vlahovic should have scored and also how well they played that game. I'm in love with that Juventus squad. Yesterday night was the first fixture in Seria A for them but they did brilliantly well. Yildaz, Cabal, Thuram and Dusan Vlahovic were players who did everything possible to win that game against Como.

Como wasn't bad honestly. I saw the game and saw that they did well but lacked precision in the final third. I'm sure they'll find themselves thriving though in due time.

AC Milan late equalizer was one win I loved. With how Torino took the lead early enough, one would think they've already buried and sealed that game.

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Quote from: SmartCharpa on August 20, 2024, 12:15:21 PM

I don't think the club discussed Lookman's want to leave the club before the Super Cup final against Real Madrid. Atalanta played an incredible game against Real Madrid, drawing in the first half but failing to handle the pressure and conceding two goals in the second half, Atalanta's performance wasn't as good at the beginning of last season as they had at the end of last season, they seemed like they had a difficult time starting the season, Atalanta's beginning this season was different from last season's, and they won the Europa League last season, I have no idea why Lookman decided to leave, perhaps he wants to play for another big team rather than staying this season.

Atalanta's problems are even more difficult now that Scamacca's injury has put him on a long layoff with an ACL tear, Koopmeiners wants to be at Juventus and now there are rumors Lookman could leave which makes things even more difficult.

These are issues that could see Atalanta suffer in terms of performance at the start of the season especially as some of the players currently being talked about are core players who will be difficult for Gasperini to replace quickly.
If the situation continues to drag on then surely this will interfere with their performance even though in the first week Atalanta could win with a landslide score where 4 goals were created but still when there are internal player problems then this can spread to performance later.

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 20, 2024, 02:14:57 PM

Victor Osimhen should be having terrible moment because he's not available to deliver his team. There's definitely huge progress for the club but it will definitely take lengthy period of time with the new coach incharge.

Honestly victory Osimhen is no more powerful again like before, I don’t dittos because the Chelsea are making attempts in several times to signed but the teams is demanding a lot of Heroes for the Chelsea which is why Osimhen is still remain in the Napoli if not he supposed start this season premier league together with Chelsea. But I don’t think that it will make Osimhen relax just like that; because that will know stop him from delver good results for his team.

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Quote from: bitLeap on August 20, 2024, 08:50:13 AM

Juventus and Atalanta started the match very well, successfully collecting their first 3 points, while Milan and Inter were unlucky because they had to end with a 2-2 draw. On the other hand, the Napoli squad was thirsty to bear the shame of losing to the Verona team 0-3 without reply. Maybe this is a congratulations for kicking Victor Osimhen from the main squad. So don't be surprised that this club has lost its best performance, there is no 100% guarantee that Napoli can finish in 5th place at the end of the season. Too early? right but that's my personal estimate Grin

Watching how Napoli started off the season and losing the match to a three goals to nothing will immediately bring out the perception that they will not still end this season in a better position. The loss being related to not playing Osimhen since he’s still very much in the transfer saga talks may or may not have been the reason for this result. We can only be sure of this thought if they continue like this in their upcoming matches. They didn’t have a good start but that doesn’t still mean they won’t do well this season.

Good game by Juventus and Atalanta who are now becoming a top team in the Serie A from their last season performance and how they finished the league and also won the Europa Legaue title from the giant Bayern Leverkusen. They could also be in the title race in my opinion because they’re showing that sign of making the best out of this season already. They just need to keep up with this performance and help make the season more easier for them to come through.

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Quote from: Majestic-milf on August 20, 2024, 12:11:25 PM

When you play against a side that hasn't tasted Serie A action for 21 years, you can't say Juventus tried. It's like they were expected to thrash them more than the two goals that was recorded and although they had one of their goal chopped off, I won't call their performance stellar, unlike the way Atalanta walloped Lecce. If you had seen the game you'd know notice Juventus struggling to get their acts right. Severally, Cesc Fabregas' side had the opportunity to punish Juvefor their mistakes but they too couldn't be relied on.

The most important thing is to win and get all three points and not the number of goals scored. The players even went on to celebrate the win by walking to the fans to appreciate their support so you should know how much this win means to them.

The way Juventus played now is a bit different, you might be right about their performance not being stellar but they are not so bad, they might struggle against tougher opponents but the result is all that matters right now. Just because a team newly got promoted to higher division would mean they would concede a lot of goals to other teams.

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Quote from: Majestic-milf on August 20, 2024, 12:11:25 PM

When you play against a side that hasn't tasted Serie A action for 21 years, you can't say Juventus tried. It's like they were expected to thrash them more than the two goals that was recorded and although they had one of their goal chopped off, I won't call their performance stellar, unlike the way Atalanta walloped Lecce. If you had seen the game you'd know notice Juventus struggling to get their acts right. Severally, Cesc Fabregas' side had the opportunity to punish Juvefor their mistakes but they too couldn't be relied on.
Juventus got their first three points of the season and at least this can ward off critics away from Thiago Motta being that he didn't lose his first game because I'm sure many were feeling that judging by their performance in pre season, maybe they will lose or draw because that has been the pattern majority of the big boys followed.

Juventus' performance in pre-season with Thiago Motta was really bad. So in the first week there were actually many people who underestimated Juventus. Because they think that when a team gets bad results in pre-season, that team is automatically bad. Even though we can see that Real Madrid and Man City are not playing very well in pre-season. But when the season started then they showed their performance. And I think the same goes for Juventus, where they look bad in pre-season. But when the season starts, I think Juventus' performance is different from when they were in pre-season. And I think even though Juventus only won against Como, it was still a good result and shows that Juventus is quite trustworthy. But we can't really judge with certainty just from 1 match. but for me the most important thing is that a team can get full points is the best. Whether it was due to luck because it was against a weak team or not. Because basically we play in the League to get points. Grin

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Quote from: Josefjix on August 20, 2024, 02:14:57 PM

Quote from: $anounimus$ on August 20, 2024, 01:57:24 PM

The poor result in the first match certainly made Conte very upset. In fact, fans and a number of betting exchanges favored Conte to achieve his first victory. Yes, even though this is just the start of the league, there is still a chance for Conte to improve his strategy. Osimhen may be on his way out because he is no longer in Conte's plans, it seems that Lukaku will be the new mainstay for Napoli's attack line.

Napoli lost 3 nil to Verona in the opening matchday in Italy. This is really a dissapointing result for the Parthenopeans and not improving. However they will do better in their next game, they just have to stick around for better results. Napoli headcoach, Antonio Conte is new to the team and there's basically more sectors and planning to put in place.

Victor Osimhen should be having terrible moment because he's not available to deliver his team. There's definitely huge progress for the club but it will definitely take lengthy period of time with the new coach incharge.

I was not prepared to see such a collapse of the Napoli team. The team dominated Serie A in the 2022–23 season. Napoli team was 16 points ahead of second placed Lazio in the table. But last season we saw Napoli in 10th place in the table. But after the coach change we thought Napoli will play well this season. Conte is a good enough coach. But the Napoli team performed badly in the first match.

Napoli's overall performance against Hellas Verona was poor. Napoli's defenders played very poorly resulting in Napoli conceding 3 goals. On the other hand, Napoli's forward players could not score a single goal despite attacking a lot. Napoli definitely need an experienced striker.

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When Gasperini has decide to bought Mateo Retegui from Genoa seems this is very good decision because apparently this player can be played as the replacement of Gianluca Scamacca and just like we know on pre season tour Gianluca Scamacca got the injured and he have to rested at least 6 month which this situation pushing Gasperini to find other striker and when he was choose Mateo Retegui i was doubt this player can performing well with Atalanta

But clearly i was wrong about that because when the match against Lecce Mateo Retegui can make a brace and i think 25 million as transfer fees to gets him is really worthy because probably Mateo Retegui can scores more goals with Atalanta

Topic: Italian League Prediction Thread (Serie A) - page 338. (Read 851566 times)