Topic: Ive Never Met a Poor or Non-White Libertarian - page 2. (Read 3387 times)

That's another of the "basic" questions that libertarians and anarchists get tired of answering. But I'll give you a brief synopsis, and recommend some reading for you, because the subject has been covered in depth from multiple angles.

The basic gist is, that if a service is worth having, it's worth paying for, and if the money has to be stolen, then it's probably not worth having. Most "public services" are completely unconstitutional in the United States, but they exist anyway and we pay for them whether we use them or not. Which creates more of a free rider problem than the system that anarchists envision.

Prior to the "public" (read government) seizure of all roads, most roads in most countries were turnpikes, and the system worked well. That's just one example. I'm tired and not willing to go in depth right this minute, but here's some good resources:

For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard
The New Libertarian Manifesto by Samuel Edward Konkin III

mises.org
lewrockwell.com

They would be able to if there was competition. It is not their fault that the government monopolizes public services and infrastructure.

People should go through their lives with the thought that if they can't take care of themselves someone else will be there to take care of them.

That should lead to some sound decision making.

To think that everyone else is selfish and that you need to take care of yourself will just lead to some sort of crazy self reliance that would be terrible for poor people.

Stay in school? Nah, there are unselfish people out there that will help me...school is too hard anyway.
Choose a major in English (which almost everyone speaks) instead of Engineering? If I don't find a job some unselfish person will get me through life...Engineering requires that hard math anyway.
Go get drunk with my friends instead of studying for that exam? My friends aren't selfish, they'll take care of me the rest of my life..the exam isn't important.
Get off my ass and look for a job? Nah, it's much easier to stay at home playing video games, some unselfish person out there will pay for my rent.

I mean, how is it possible for someone not to use any public services or infrastructure?

Easy, by not being an asshole, oh wait I forgot! That's too difficult for some people!

How is that possible?

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

Don't know what you're talking about.

I just don't think freeloaders should be allowed to take advantage of public infrastructure and services, simply because they don't "believe in taxes."

So you mean one day the bitcoin tax people will shut down the speech they do not like on the network, just like the IRS?

Two things, there's nothing wrong with describing a basic existent human trait, and acknowledging it.  Humans are selfish. 

This is separate from imposing value judgements.  Selfish can be bad, if say in an isolated group of starving people one hoards the food.

Selfish can be good, too.  Usually this is the case.

Unselfish or "altruistic" has been hijacked by politicians and other manipulators who want to see you doing things for free for them. 

My suspicion of attempts to insult selfishness stems from the selfishness of those doing the insulting.

I live below the poverty line and I am a libertarian. And I am Non-White.

So what you're saying is ... if you embrace libertarianism you become a filthy rich white, but if you don't you become a poor minority?!

I'm sold! Where do I sign up?!

Now that, sir, is a very cogent question. One I've given years of thought too. I can't give a short answer, and in fact have to say there is no single answer.

But I have a lot of ideas. My first response was a bit terse. In rereading it, I came off pretty pissed off, which I wasn't. Just had my hands full of 9 month old baby

But to the point you raise, I am of the opinion that government needs to change, and the current forms will have to be abolished for that to happen. I'm more an anarchist than a libertarian, though it was Rothbard that led me to anarchism. I do not have a great deal of time right now, so I'll just leave you some thinking points, because as I said, I don't have proven answers, just some strong suspicions (some backed by history, others by observation).

1. As you noted humans are selfish. This has to be factored into any system, coercive or not, or it will not work.

2. In a seeming contradiction, people can be quite generous, and often for reasons that appear to contradict #1. (in fact, it does not, but that's for later, as I'd like to see your responses first)

3. All current forms of government are predicated on ownership of people, whether admitted or not. ( a dictatorship is generally more honest than a democracy in that)

4. Libertarian and anarchist philosophy rail against three, but largely skate by 1 and magnify 2.

So, as I see it, there can be no ONE solution, but massive decentralization, with small communities who interact with each other on a case by case basis, and a general acceptance of the non aggression principle is a BEGINNING of a solution. That deals well with our social nature, but not AS well with our selfishness. Given that general acceptance is NOT universal acceptance, it is also necessary that a free society be well armed at the individual level. I've long said that philosophy aside, the first requisite of a free society is general armament. It prevents those who do bad things from doing them, and that includes would-be rulers.

At this point in history, talking about what can be is the best we have, but I think it quite probable that libertarians and anarchists could establish communities that become recognized as nations. It won't happen in the west for a long time, but it could happen in Africa, on uninhabited islands, a number of places even in Eastern Europe.

This is of course far from even a complete introduction to the things I've been thinking and talking about for the last 13 years, but to my mind you have raised the big question. As far as how to achieve such societies, I think the agorist attitude is proper.

Looking forward to your reply!

A) Im white

B) I never said that there are no poor or non-white libertarians, I just said Ive never met one

C) I never said libertarians are selfish, I said human beings are selfish


It seems I touched a nerve here. I never asked for your empathy, I just wanted to have conversation about my evolving political beliefs.

I am a libertarian, but I have a high degree of compassion for mankind and the plight of the average person. Furthermore, when civil society breaks down as a result of the endgame of free markets, nobody wins - even with the people who have all the money and property. They will essentially be living in a prison. How could anyone argue for this result?

My issue is, how do we retain total economic freedom without an endgame which results in our society breaking down, the start of which we are currently seeing.

This is a sincere question, its been bothering me for weeks.

What, are you referring to me?

I'm also half-irish, but it's not like that matters to someone who's a blatant moron and can't see past their own brainwashed perceptions of certain groups of people I'm tired of people on this board who are part of mainstream politics trying to fit me in somewhere they're comfortable with and it's funny when I don't fit into anything they've been taught about.

I'm a libertarian anarchist, and flat broke.

I'm also of mixed ancestry, white and Native American.

Widen your scope of investigation, you'll find a lot of us.

That's because there's a subsidy/inflation in place, you need to think long term, way beyond the subsidy.

Wrong. One has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations a lack of a police state aka 24/7/365 civil rights violations funded by taxes.

Wrong. Almost every transaction I send requires no fee, and confirms in the next block or 2.

Well, it's not "obey or die", but one has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations with the same or better opportunities that were given to us.

Even the Bitcoin protocol, the liberal/libertarian/anarchist wet dream isn't tax free, one has to pay fees in order to keep the system running...