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Topic: Ixcoin TODO - page 170. (Read 631747 times)

legendary
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May 14, 2014, 04:49:20 PM
the bet functionality does not make sense because what determines a winning bet?

Oh dear, have you even read the protocol specification? What do you think "broadcast" is for?

Anyhow, that comment probably tells everyone your level of expertise.

but what and who determines the value of the broadcast?

in short, how can anyone trust a broadcast?

you still have not explained why we need a 'meta-coin'.   You keep claiming its necessary,  but from my analysis,  there's absolutely no need.   Like I said,  Counterparty as a coin is absolutely worthless,  the implementation is valuable but you don't need the coin.  The math don't lie.

Essentially, the implementation just gets rids of the absurdity and uses a blockchain that is not hostile to it.




member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 04:41:38 PM
the bet functionality does not make sense because what determines a winning bet?

Oh dear, have you even read the protocol specification? What do you think "broadcast" is for?

Anyhow, that comment probably tells everyone your level of expertise.
legendary
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May 14, 2014, 04:29:56 PM
 
Explain to the audience in this thread why a 'meta coin' is necessary?  Why does a new coin need to be implemented?  

It was already explained when this whole discussion started: you need to escrow funds for the bets etc. The very same reason why your original "native IXC" porposal is not working.

any user defined asset can be escrowed!

the bet functionality does not make sense because what determines a winning bet?

it only make sense with regards to "orders".   If "orders" is what you are refering to as "escrow" funds,  then it works perfectly fine with a native currency.

I can create two user defined currencies A and B, and both can be exchanged with A, B and IXC.   There is no need to create an extra MIXC.  

In fact, the foundation can issue assets that are redeemable into IXC.   This is done very simply by creating a sell order of the asset every time a buy order is fulfilled.   

member
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May 14, 2014, 04:21:32 PM
 
Explain to the audience in this thread why a 'meta coin' is necessary?  Why does a new coin need to be implemented?  

It was already explained when this whole discussion started: you need to escrow funds for the bets etc. The very same reason why your original "native IXC" porposal is not working.
legendary
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May 14, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
The primary difference between Counterparty and the IXC implementation is that the issue requires an equivalent IXC fee.   The fee is to be either "burned" or "donated" to the foundation.  

And why would anyone use such an implementation? If someone likes your version of "Counterparty" (actually, stripped dows such that it truely is equivalent to a poor man's ColoredCoins), they can simply fork you code and start their own "Counterparty" without any fees. Why do you keep proposing these dead ideas? To satisfy not-so-technically-advanced community members that donated to your bounty?

How many times does it need mentioning that Counterparty has issues if Bitcoin wants to squash it.  Bitcoin has reduced the OP_RETURN opcode to accept 40 bytes instead of the original 80 bytes. They did this to precisely squash counterparty.

Anyone certainly can fork their own "Counterparty", but what benefit is that for them?   For 1 million shares of an asset it costs only 100 IXC.   Do you think they would go through all the trouble of creating a fork and distributing this fork to people who want to buy their asset? 

The whole idea of this is to create additional value for IXC.  Maybe you don't get it at all!
legendary
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May 14, 2014, 04:11:19 PM
The more that I think about this,  there is no need for a meta-coin!  

Here are the following messages:

•Send
•Order
•IXCPay
•Issue
•Broadcast
•Bet
•Dividend

Burn

Oh, and now you "suddenly invented" that there is no need for meta-coin in ColoredCoins ...

Yes, as I originally thought (and got side tracked by this discussion of meta-coins) that there is no need for a "meta-coin".
  

Oh really. Even it was said even this very same thread that the primary difference between Counterparty and ColoredCoins is that Counterparty requires a meta-coin and ColoredCoins does not, and the price being paid for the latter is that certain things like the ones you striked out above can not be implemented.

Anyhow, I'm now convinced that if anything useful on this front will be implemented for Ixcoin, it is not coming from you. I don't see any point on continuing discussions on these matters with you any longer. I wish the rest of the bounty payers are happy with whatever you will provide.

I think you are making a lot of accusations that have no merit.

Broadcast and Bet are removed from now since they have too many issues.  The dividend feature may however be implemented.

I think you are just muddy the waters with the idea that a 'meta coin' is even necessary.   

Explain to the audience in this thread why a 'meta coin' is necessary?  Why does a new coin need to be implemented?   

member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 04:05:57 PM
The more that I think about this,  there is no need for a meta-coin!  

Here are the following messages:

•Send
•Order
•IXCPay
•Issue
•Broadcast
•Bet
•Dividend

Burn

Oh, and now you "suddenly invented" that there is no need for meta-coin in ColoredCoins ...

Yes, as I originally thought (and got side tracked by this discussion of meta-coins) that there is no need for a "meta-coin".
  

Oh really. Even it was said even this very same thread that the primary difference between Counterparty and ColoredCoins is that Counterparty requires a meta-coin and ColoredCoins does not, and the price being paid for the latter is that certain things like the ones you striked out above can not be implemented.

Anyhow, I'm now convinced that if anything useful on this front will be implemented for Ixcoin, it is not coming from you. I don't see any point on continuing discussions on these matters with you any longer. I wish the rest of the bounty payers are happy with whatever you will provide.
member
Activity: 79
Merit: 10
May 14, 2014, 03:54:54 PM
The primary difference between Counterparty and the IXC implementation is that the issue requires an equivalent IXC fee.   The fee is to be either "burned" or "donated" to the foundation.  

And why would anyone use such an implementation? If someone likes your version of "Counterparty" (actually, stripped dows such that it truely is equivalent to a poor man's ColoredCoins), they can simply fork you code and start their own "Counterparty" without any fees. Why do you keep proposing these dead ideas? To satisfy not-so-technically-advanced community members that donated to your bounty?
legendary
Activity: 868
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May 14, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
What is going to happen in 27 hours?
https://www.coinprism.com/
The colored show is gonna start?

To me Colored Coins makes more sense.

I don't think coinprism implementation is available to the public.

"Colored Coins" implementation is a bit convoluted and there is no built in exchange mechanism.

CounterParty implementation is extremely simple.

Mastercoin is probably the best implementation, however I have to verify if the distributed exchange capability is available.
legendary
Activity: 868
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May 14, 2014, 03:25:43 PM
The more that I think about this,  there is no need for a meta-coin!  

Here are the following messages:

•Send
•Order
•IXCPay
•Issue
•Broadcast
•Bet
•Dividend

Burn

Oh, and now you "suddenly invented" that there is no need for meta-coin in ColoredCoins ...

Yes, as I originally thought (and got side tracked by this discussion of meta-coins) that there is no need for a "meta-coin".

All user defined coins are 'meta-coin', so there is no need for a 'special' one.

There is no need to maintain a balance with this 'special' coin with respect to IXC since there is no real value in this 'special' coin (unless of course we devise one).   
member
Activity: 79
Merit: 10
May 14, 2014, 03:14:00 PM
The more that I think about this,  there is no need for a meta-coin!  

Here are the following messages:

•Send
•Order
•IXCPay
•Issue
•Broadcast
•Bet
•Dividend

Burn

Oh, and now you "suddenly invented" that there is no need for meta-coin in ColoredCoins ...
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
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May 14, 2014, 03:03:02 PM
The more that I think about this,  there is no need for a meta-coin!  

Here are the following messages:

•Send
•Order
•IXCPay
•Issue
•Broadcast
•Bet
•Dividend

Burn

Not all CounterParty messages are implemented.  Particulary the Broadcast, Bet and Dividend functionality which requires further analysis.

There will be no "burn" message, only an "issue" message.   The primary difference between Counterparty and the IXC implementation is that the issue requires an equivalent IXC fee.   The fee is to be either "burned" or "donated" to the foundation.  The fee will be determined by the foundation.   Example,  .0001 IXC per asset.  So if a party requires 1 million shares created, then 100 IXC will be required to be burned or donated.  In short, it is up to the asset issuer to decide if they want to donate to the foundation or not.

What the "issue" message does is for anyone to create ones own asset.      The "order" message allows user to exchange assets.  

All transactions will of course require the standard IXC fee.
member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 02:52:53 PM

 I'm sure we can find a win-win situation for everyone..

I'd like to know what is the problem with my spin-off IXCP idea?

Like I said, too complicated to implement.

Oh really, what makes it so complicated?
member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 02:51:23 PM
 I am not sure why you are objecting to pegging the value of meta-IXC with the value of IXC.  What is wrong with that?

I'm not objecting per se, but you have not provided a working way to do it. Your "permanent sell order" is a dead idea that is not working.
member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 02:46:18 PM
I've looked at your proposal and to be honest, it is complexity that is unecessary.
What complexity?

  How is creating a meta-coin that is not pegged to the price of IXC supposed to help IXC? 
It seems like it is not that you don't get it but you don't want to get it. Every Counterparty transaction creates miners fees in IXC. This gives reason for miners to keep mining after block reward goes zero. Metacoin (or the Counterparty it is allowing) gives an additional use for IXC, which gives a reason for people to buy IXCs.

Maintaining a snapshot of all the coins in the past for every client is a prohibitively expensive solution.
You only keep a snapshot of a one fixed time. A few tens of megs at most is not an expensive.

The IXC native coin is a complete different implementation that will require a hard fork.

I'm glad you finally explicitly admit it.



 This I proposed as having a perpetual sell order where meta-coins can be exchanged back to IXC.

Which is not working as you don't have funds to back it up (unless you comit 100% of the "donated" coins to that which rather pointless). Let's see how long it takes you to admit that.
legendary
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May 14, 2014, 02:29:22 PM

 I'm sure we can find a win-win situation for everyone..

I'd like to know what is the problem with my spin-off IXCP idea?

Like I said, too complicated to implement.
legendary
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May 14, 2014, 02:28:36 PM
And I also like his multi-sig idea for the burned coins where the foundation redistributes them.  50% charity and 50% for promoting IXC also sounds fair and good.

This will dilute the value of metacoin as there is no limit on number of metacoins. The same IXCs can be used again and again to create new metacoins. Why would anyone then want to use IXC counterparty  when you could get the same functionality from the original Counterparty or Mastercoin (riding on a top of bitcoin network) without such a problem?

To make the point again,  the value of the IXC counterparty coin is not the major concern here.  Heck, the value can be zero for the meta-coin.   

Why would anyone use IXC counterparty instead of the original counterparty?  Because it works in IXC and does not work in Bitcoin!

What we are trying to do here is to create a port that will increase the utility of IXC.   I am not sure why you are objecting to pegging the value of meta-IXC with the value of IXC.  What is wrong with that?

legendary
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May 14, 2014, 02:24:15 PM
Let's not try to muddle the goals here.  The goal is to increase the usage and as a consequence the value of IXC.

Exactly.

We aren't interested in some other meta-coin that has its own valuation.   We want the valuation of the meta-coin to correspond to the value of IXC. 
Yes, that is why the metacoin is valuated through the exchange with IXC. That's done through the trade within the Counterparty protocol. What is the relative exchange rate between IXC and the metacoin makes no difference to the value of IXC which is valuated externaly.

Understand that the value of cryptocurrencies is that there is a cost for moving electrons.   Email for example has next to no cost to send out,  that's why there is a spamming problem.   With crypto-currencies, there is always a cost for any transaction.   Bitcoin in fact banned the small transactions like satoshidice because they regard spamming as a problem.  Bitcoin also dislikes the use of Mastercoin and Counterparty because they ride on the Bitcoin block chain without paying the appropriate toll.

Well if Counterparty or equivalent want to ride on the IXC network,  then they should also pay a similar 'toll'.  What I am proposing is that they pay a toll. 
Not true on many counts. First, they are paying exactly the same 'toll' as everyone else, the miners fee. Second, I don't think you can speak for "bitcoin". Third, you have not proposed anything about a 'toll' (i.e. a cost for Counterparty transactions themselves). What you are proposing now, after it turned out that you original plan (IXC as native coin) was impossible and your second plan (burning) was disliked by many, a (non-workable =1:1 exchange) centralized metacoin.

It begins to look to me that you are not really interested in making the best possible solution for IXCoin  but instead you seem to want to simply minimize your work in order to just collect your bounty. For those with less technical/coding understanding: implementing Counterparty with "burn" (or "donate") functionality requires only very minor changes to existing Counterparty code.


I've looked at your proposal and to be honest, it is complexity that is unecessary.  How is creating a meta-coin that is not pegged to the price of IXC supposed to help IXC?  Maintaining a snapshot of all the coins in the past for every client is a prohibitively expensive solution.     

The IXC native coin is a complete different implementation that will require a hard fork.

The Counterparty implementation is an easy implementation that only requires the latest client.   This was the original proposal and I think people do seem to like the 'donate' functionality over the 'burn' functionality.   It is almost identical in implementation,  the only major difference is figuring out how best to re-distribute donations.   This I proposed as having a perpetual sell order where meta-coins can be exchanged back to IXC.

member
Activity: 79
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May 14, 2014, 01:45:00 PM
And I also like his multi-sig idea for the burned coins where the foundation redistributes them.  50% charity and 50% for promoting IXC also sounds fair and good.

This will dilute the value of metacoin as there is no limit on number of metacoins. The same IXCs can be used again and again to create new metacoins. Why would anyone then want to use IXC counterparty  when you could get the same functionality from the original Counterparty or Mastercoin (riding on a top of bitcoin network) without such a problem?
member
Activity: 79
Merit: 10
May 14, 2014, 01:34:01 PM

 I'm sure we can find a win-win situation for everyone..

I'd like to know what is the problem with my spin-off IXCP idea?
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