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Topic: John Nash created bitcoin - page 12. (Read 22261 times)

sr. member
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April 13, 2017, 04:59:31 AM
Quote from: iamnotback
Besides the shadow elite are apt to love the altcoin I will launch, because they will see it as yet another speculation that falls under Bitcoin's umbrella.

Why would they love a currency that is designed to be truly decentralized? Please be more specific on that.

Because they don't think anything can be. They will view it as another speculation or if necessary something they can capture when needed.

I assume you meant "decentralized". But that leaves us with a dilemma:

a) They think it because they are very smart and proved the impossibility of decentralized currencies before releasing Bitcoin. Though that would mean that your design would turn out as impossible as well. Either because it's impossible as such or because it will finally get captured by them.

b) They didn't prove it and just think (or hope) it. In that case they would be very dumb (and thus cannot be called an "elite") since they must have been aware of the risk that someone would eventually come and fix Bitcoin's flaw of becoming centralized.

@iamnotback: Do you have any thoughts on how to solve that dilemma?

From my deep study of the range of plausible designs for a blockchain consensus system (and I studied much deeper than in than what is contained in that linked thread), I conclude that it is impossible to have a fungible token on a blockchain in which the consensus doesn't become centralized iff the presumption is that the users of the system gain the most value from the system due to its monetary function.

However, I was able to outsmart the global elite, because I realized that if the users of the system gained more value from the system for its non-monetary function and iff that value can't be financed (i.e. its value can be leeched off by control of fungible money), and if I provided a way for the users to provide the Byzantine fault DETECTION as a check-and-balance against the power of the whales and if I provided this in a way that is not democracy and is a crab bucket mentality Nash equilibrium, then I would have defeated the problems with the concept of fungible money.

The elite simply weren't aware of these concepts, because I invented them. Nash didn't know this.

And that is what I intend to launch with BitNet.
hero member
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April 13, 2017, 04:51:52 AM
I've first heard about John Nash is when I've watched the movie a beautiful mind. Of course the movie is not enough to tell whole of John Nash story but I think he has a paranoid schizophrenia, where he think that something or someone is real.

I don't know if John Nash created Bitcoin but I think he's field is more on game theory and partial differential equations.
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April 13, 2017, 04:47:53 AM
Hello everyone, it's my first post here.

About the creation of bitcoin, I don't know who created bitcoin (I know who created Tor). But that talk about bitcoin will be just for billionaires, its a valid point, but I doubt it will happen the way you put it.

When I see new coins specialised in anonymity it kind of makes me laugh. There is no anonymity online, there never will be !

The only way for you to be (more) anonymous is to make it more difficult to track you.

That being said, do you really think billionaires will stick to bitcoin and not have a portfolio of at least tens of coins ?

I see the future using only crypto, its obvious for various reasons, whether is litecoin, eth, dash, or even googlecoin or applecoin, or all at the same time. Since blockchain, money will become 100% private and will have to compete with each other, in the market, like any other asset !

This is just the beginning of classic liberalism dream (the opposite of new liberalism), the one planned by former nobel prizes like Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, and others from Chicago and Austrian School of economics. It will be fulfilled

https://youtu.be/QON_CobFPM0
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April 13, 2017, 04:47:24 AM
My comment about transaction fee is correct.

But I told you that you don't need to sell BTC until you see the transaction fees rising too much. The fees won't rise overnight. It will be a slow process over the coming years.

Yes you will end up buying an altcoin eventually some years from (or cashing out to some fiat or other asset). You will have no choice.

Are you aware there can be 2 scenario playing out?

Scenario A: Fee rises along with bitcoin price within a fixed percentage. So if the percentage is 0.1% and bitcoin price is at $100,000, then the fee will be $100. And if bitcoin price is at $1,000,000, then the fee will be $1,000.

Scenario B: Fee rises regardless of bitcoin price. So if fee is fixed at $1,000 minimum, it will remain at $1,000 (minimum) regardless of whether bitcoin price is at $100,000 or $1,000,000 (or even at $10,000, effectively meaning to say the fee is 10% of transaction value).

Which scenario do you mean will play out? Or is there a scenario C, if so, how will it play out?
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April 13, 2017, 04:45:07 AM


In regards to John Nash creating Bitcoin I think I could just as well say someone else created it. I don’t think we will ever know for sure.
Absolutely true and intelligent point!  Although on other hand, how many people do you know spent the last 20 years explaining how an international e-currency with a stable supply and asymptotically stabilizing inflation rate would cause a currency war that would eventually end the monopoly on central banks and government ability to issue money?

This is another reason why bitcoin is not corresponding to Nash's ideal money.  Bitcoin has a diminishing DEBASEMENT, and a huge DEFLATION (that is, value appreciation). 

For Nash, it was extremely important that this international currency had zero or low and fixed, inflation, that is VALUE DEPRECIATION.  He accused gold of not being ideal, exactly because it was too much of a collectible, and couldn't adapt supply to keep its value constant.  Bitcoin is based upon sound money doctrine, which is not what Nash considers ideal money, because it doesn't have a stable value, and can't because you cannot have inelastic supply, variable demand, and constant price.  Bitcoin has perfectly inelastic supply (it is programmed in advance), even a diminishing growth rate of his supply.  So this must be a value-appreciating asset, which cannot serve as ideal money with constant value AT ALL.

If it was meant to be a reserve ASSET (not money), then Satoshi has been lying through his teeth, and it doesn't correspond to what Nash called ideal money.
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April 13, 2017, 04:38:18 AM
 

I'm sorry about that.  I used to like bitcoin, and I used to believe that it could have been good money.  It turns out it isn't.  But it is a great gambler's token, and it is a great reserve currency for unregulated sleazy big business (but not for the normal user, only for the big sleazy guys).  This is why I don't like it.  I think Satoshi created a monster, and that, together with a lot of technical clumsiness of the design, makes my have some doubts about him being Nash. But I'm not emotionally invested into this.  In other words, when I see the work, I think it cannot be the work of a genius, or at most of a genius in a bad day. Simply because the result doesn't look very well constructed, not because it has something to do with my "world view".  Bitcoin turned out to be clunky and quite ugly.  If you think that a genius created something clunky and quite ugly, be my guest.  I'm just pointing out that for a math genius, things don't add up, and I haven't seen any explanation of why it doesn't add up.  Your "you are wrong" are not arguments, but just expressions of your un-argumented opinion.

I can write a letter to Pythagoras, saying "you are wrong, but you are suffering from cognitive dissonance".  That doesn't disprove Pythagoras' theorem.

If the elements I bring up WERE truly well-thought over, I'm sure that one could explain them clearly to me, or refer to Satoshi explaining them which would even be better.  I haven't looked through all of the documentation, but I have never seen (so maybe I missed it) a convincing analysis countering the indications of clumsy design I mention here *especially on the math and crypto side* which is where we could expect a guy like Nash to be top-level.
The clumsiness and the monster that you describe as a great reserve currency for unregulated sleazy big business (but not for the normal user....is EXACTLY what Nash describes:
Quote
In a large state like one of the "great democracies" it is reasonable to say that the people should be able, in principle, to decide on the form of a money (like a "public utility") that they should be served by, even though most of the actual volume of the use of the money would be out of the hands of the great majority of the people.

Quote
And then the “integration” or “coordination” of those into a global currency would become just a technical problem. (Here I am thinking of a politically neutral form of a technological utility rather than of a money which might, for example, be used to exert pressures in a conflict situation comparable to “the cold war”.)

Quote
Here I think of the possibility that a good sort of international currency might EVOLVE before the time when an official establishment might occur.

Quote
if it were too easy to set up a form of “global money” that the version achieved might have characteristics of inferiority which would make it, compar-atively, more like a relatively inferior national currency

You simply do not understand the role of money in this world, and are a perfect example of why Satoshi never explained what bitcoin truly was.

We are mixing different things here.  Satoshi clearly stated that he intended to have VISA-like transaction volumes on-chain with bitcoin, but that bitcoin would become a semi-centralized served thing.

I already cited that:

http://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/2/

Quote
The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction
would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be
broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion
transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day.
That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or
2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.
If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then,
sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal.

From this, I clearly read that the original aim, as announced by Satoshi, was to have VISA like transaction amounts on chain.  100 GB of extra block chain a day didn't seem to scare him in 2008.

The way I understand what Nash is saying in what you put in bold, is not so much that most people should use another KIND of money, but rather that they would use *the same money* but not determine most VOLUME.

In other words, people pay in dollars - the same dollars - as a few rich entities, but the dollar flow between the few rich entities is much, much bigger than the dollar flow between most people.  He's talking about VOLUME, not about KIND.

I read from Satoshi also that he realized that his system would only be viable in the long term in the hands of an oligarchy of miners.

(from the same e-mail):

Quote
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes.
At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware
. A server farm would
only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with
that one node.

So much for the P2P nature of bitcoin, which was only intended as a bootstrap with useful idiots.  He clearly didn't care about a long-term P2P network, and the importance of decentralized nodes: he wanted a few big miner nodes, to which people would connect directly, without them even having the ability to download the block chain.  The block chain was just the ledger that a few oligarchs would share amongst them, hopefully keeping one another in check, to serve as the new centralized VISA backbone to which all users would connect.

However, the way bitcoin is evolving, and was actually designed with the 1 MB limit (and other practical limits), is that on chain transactions will be limited to a few big actors and will not reach large scale, but on the other hand, that most people will be able to download a chain with which they cannot do anything apart from contemplating how big guys are filling it with their expensive transactions.

Bitcoin is "rich sleasy business" OWN private money, NOT to be used by normal people, contrary to what Satoshi initially announced.   Bitcoin IS downloadable by anybody, but not usable ; Satoshi announced bitcoin to be usable by anybody, but not downloadable except for a few miner oligarchs.

And why did it become a rich sleazy business money and not a VISA administered by a few miners ?  Because Satoshi put himself a 1MB limit on the block chain.  If he understood the game structure of bitcoin, he would have known that this limit would become immutable because it was needed to generate fees (which he needed for reasons of his diminishing coin creation scheme in the longer term) but then it couldn't turn into a VISA kind of money and he would deny what he had been proposing from the start  - and if he didn't understand the consequences of him introducing a "temporary" 1 MB limit, then he couldn't foresee that it was going to become a rich-business-only crypto either.
sr. member
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April 13, 2017, 04:36:05 AM

How will you suffer an investment valuation loss if I am correct?

What have I stated which could cause you to make a decision which could potentially cause any loss for you  Huh

What I mean is if you're wrong, then I will suffer investment loss if I listen to you.


What you have stated about transaction fee that gets too high that it locks us out of the blockchain.
What you may not realize is that if that will be the case, then many still holding bitcoin (but is not $billionaire) by that time will have useless bitcoin because they can't spend them as they will never get confirmed.
If that will be so, then why not shift away to the alts soon?
Your comment about that transaction fee gives the wrong impression.

My comment about transaction fee is correct.

But I told you that you don't need to sell BTC until you see the transaction fees rising too much. The fees won't rise overnight. It will be a slow process over the coming years.

Yes you will end up buying an altcoin eventually some years from (or cashing out to some fiat or other asset). You will have no choice.
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April 13, 2017, 04:30:01 AM
Again would need to do the maths to be sure, but im fairly convinced the whole design rely on tieing up two opposite for them to work together as a greater whole with a certain global order even if it's composed of two opposite forces.

The two sides are the market/trading/speculation, and the other side, the predictible nature supposed to emerge from it, from the Mining, to keep the chain coherent and secure the transactions.

The two opposing sides are just distractions.

The shadow elites neither understand Taoism nor are practicing Taoist wisdom.

Because they do not practice what they understand/preach, thus they are as good as not practicing any wisdom.

Besides, the shadow elites worship the money god.

Money, no matter how perfect we try to make it to be, will never be perfect.
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April 13, 2017, 04:24:00 AM
So you think it's respectfull to answer with two trash words, without even constructing a sentence ?

And still there are meaning associated with the kanji, and it might not be a person name, but an immortal concept.

And yes we cant tell for sure if that's it or not, just a possibility Wink

Being disrespectful is part of the balance.

Ommmmm.........   Grin

Wink

Yes but to me you see it's there that a connection with taoism can be made, even with the conclusion of Nash theories.

Again would need to do the maths to be sure, but im fairly convinced the whole design rely on tieing up two opposite for them to work together as a greater whole with a certain global order even if it's composed of two opposite forces.

The two sides are the market/trading/speculation, and the other side, the predictible nature supposed to emerge from it, from the Mining, to keep the chain coherent and secure the transactions.

Im pretty sure it would come out as butterfly shaped thing where the two side are kept together by the pinning of the two side on the block reward/inflation control/pow/proba.

Because it become obvious to me now there are two game playing together with the bitcoin, and each can have opposite interest, but it's kept together as a coherent whole because of a certain dynamic that take in account the two side and make them work together as a common interest emerge from the system even if each side only think about his interest.

In that it could be close to some taoist principle, add to this the kanji, it still make a lot of coïncidence,

But maybe it's not this at all, again just an idea that start to form in my mind Wink
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April 13, 2017, 04:07:24 AM
I assume you meant "decentralized". But that leaves us with a dilemma:
a) They think it because they are very smart and proved the impossibility of decentralized currencies before releasing Bitcoin. Though that would mean that your design would turn out as impossible as well. Either because it's impossible as such or because it will finally get captured by them.
b) They didn't prove it and just think (or hope) it. In that case they would be very dumb (and thus cannot be called an "elite") since they must have been aware of the risk that someone would eventually come and fix Bitcoin's flaw of becoming centralized.

@iamnotback: Do you have any thoughts on how to solve that dilemma?
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April 13, 2017, 04:05:22 AM
So you think it's respectfull to answer with two trash words, without even constructing a sentence ?

And still there are meaning associated with the kanji, and it might not be a person name, but an immortal concept.

And yes we cant tell for sure if that's it or not, just a possibility Wink

Being disrespectful is part of the balance.

Ommmmm.........   Grin
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April 13, 2017, 04:01:29 AM
Well satoshis still mean wisdom , and the other central origin of. Path of the middle to reach wisdom , it's still plain budhism/taoism .

And yes either we assume it's name or not is assumption. Just saying we already know it's not a real name, and so the assumption to assume it's a person name to begin with is moot.

Coïncidence or not, cant tell for sure.

I studied taoïsme too, not sure why you try to construct my point of view as a lack of respect. Specially calling me garbage in the same breath. It's not a lack of respect in taoist culture ?

I am not referring to you as garbage.

I am referring to the opinion given by your indonesian girlfriend as garbage.

"Satoshi" can mean anything that your imagination can conjure up, because there is no world outside the mind, and no mind outside the world.

So you think it's respectfull to answer with two trash words, without even constructing a sentence ?

And still there are meaning associated with the kanji, and it might not be a person name, but an immortal concept.

And yes we cant tell for sure if that's it or not, just a possibility Wink
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April 13, 2017, 03:58:28 AM
Well satoshis still mean wisdom , and the other central origin of. Path of the middle to reach wisdom , it's still plain budhism/taoism .

And yes either we assume it's name or not is assumption. Just saying we already know it's not a real name, and so the assumption to assume it's a person name to begin with is moot.

Coïncidence or not, cant tell for sure.

I studied taoïsme too, not sure why you try to construct my point of view as a lack of respect. Specially calling me garbage in the same breath. It's not a lack of respect in taoist culture ?

I am not referring to you as garbage.

I am referring to the opinion given by your indonesian girlfriend as garbage.

"Satoshi" can mean anything that your imagination can conjure up, because there is no world outside the mind, and no mind outside the world.
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April 13, 2017, 03:48:24 AM
Care to elaborate ? Or just a little hate burp in the morning ? Smiley

But I said it's just a possibility, if you have more element to disprove it, go ahead,  otherwise you are the one posting garbage Wink

But from japanese these kanji can also have meaning, and they are not very common name.

I have origin in taoism.

Trying to interpret the meaning of "satoshi" is like looking at the clouds and say the clouds look like a rabbit, without realizing that from another perspective it could look unlike a rabbit at all.

Unless the originator of bitcoin states the true meaning of "satoshi", whatever meaning we put to it is just based on assumption.

And it is quite disrespectful to associate "satoshi" to Taoist teaching without 100% assurance and certainty.


Well satoshis still mean wisdom , and the other central origin of. Path of the middle to reach wisdom , it's still plain budhism/taoism .

And yes either we assume it's name or not is assumption. Just saying we already know it's not a real name, and so the assumption to assume it's a person name to begin with is moot.

Coïncidence or not, cant tell for sure.

I studied taoïsme too, not sure why you try to construct my point of view as a lack of respect. Specially calling me garbage in the same breath. It's not a lack of respect in taoist culture ?
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April 13, 2017, 03:43:49 AM
I'm sorry about that.  I used to like bitcoin, and I used to believe that it could have been good money.  It turns out it isn't.  But it is a great gambler's token, and it is a great reserve currency for unregulated sleazy big business (but not for the normal user, only for the big sleazy guys).  This is why I don't like it.  I think Satoshi created a monster, and that, together with a lot of technical clumsiness of the design, makes my have some doubts about him being Nash. But I'm not emotionally invested into this.  In other words, when I see the work, I think it cannot be the work of a genius, or at most of a genius in a bad day. Simply because the result doesn't look very well constructed, not because it has something to do with my "world view".  Bitcoin turned out to be clunky and quite ugly.  If you think that a genius created something clunky and quite ugly, be my guest.  I'm just pointing out that for a math genius, things don't add up, and I haven't seen any explanation of why it doesn't add up.  Your "you are wrong" are not arguments, but just expressions of your un-argumented opinion.


To me still from the day I sensed bitcoin was not really moral or good currency in my standard lol

Only because it's based on reward and probability, and game theory, it's the kind of stuff to dance with the devil, and no matter how you think it's going to work out, it always lead to amorality .

Actually I hate the principle of game theory and probability math lol

I remember I read about this before, but i didn't make the connection before lol

But all the mathematics and economic theories always stem from philosophy or sociology deep down.

Game theories come from dumb philosophy theories. It's known since plato and the very inception of rationalism,idealism, mathematics,  and republic / democracy that people who only fit on this model of reward and greed are opposite to idealism, intelectualism, and often are very short sighted regarding consequences. And will be anti law, anti morality, anti gov, anti anything that prevent them from maximum personal reward. Morality is always a constraint.

Now Nash was very aware of this, and I think his thinking is that it's possible to "game the game" , specially by exploiting this short sighted view and ignorance of long term to design system in sort to do some kind of jiu-jitsu with short sighted greed to trap them into acting in  a certain manner for short sighted seek of reward, but the law if the game have other implications who turn the system into some equilibrium, even if all individuals are only thinking for themselves in short sighted view.

And there are things that can lead me to think btc is this kind of jiu-jitsu to game the game theory based on proba and tieing two logic together through the system of pow/reward/coin emission all tied together.

But to be sure, would need to do the maths lol need to find someone good with proba and algebra and market economy to put the equation together to see if some prectible behavior is supposed to emerge through some factor who is made to be kept constant in the equation, even if it's seemingly random and clumpsy.
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April 13, 2017, 03:37:55 AM

How will you suffer an investment valuation loss if I am correct?

What have I stated which could cause you to make a decision which could potentially cause any loss for you  Huh

What I mean is if you're wrong, then I will suffer investment loss if I listen to you.


What you have stated about transaction fee that gets too high that it locks us out of the blockchain.
What you may not realize is that if that will be the case, then many still holding bitcoin (but is not $billionaire) by that time will have useless bitcoin because they can't spend them as they will never get confirmed.
If that will be so, then why not shift away to the alts soon?
Your comment about that transaction fee gives the wrong impression.
hero member
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April 13, 2017, 03:36:07 AM
Well I am not sure about John nash creared bitcoin because there are not really know who make bitcoin
the informations about creater of bitcoin is called Satoshi Nakamoto,
there are some people said that creared bitcoin is Craig Wright and there are some people
said Craig Wright is not creater of bitcoin.
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April 13, 2017, 03:29:57 AM
I only care if I will suffer total loss if I listen to you, because if I do, there is no insurance and no guarantee of compensation.

How will you suffer an investment valuation loss if I am correct?

What have I stated which could cause you to make a decision which could potentially cause any loss for you  Huh
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April 13, 2017, 03:26:58 AM
I am correct about the technological points. Thus I am correct about the ramifications of those technological points.

I am not afraid if you're correct.
I am only afraid if you're wrong.
Because money earned from years of sweat and toil is at stake, and must not be simply/casually wasted away on something just because someone says that's the one.

I don't care how genius or smart or intelligent you are.
I only care if I will suffer total loss if I listen to you, because if I do, there is no insurance and no guarantee of compensation.
100% confidence is 100% overconfidence.
I learned this many times from trading.

Bear in mind, a lot of things can change.
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April 13, 2017, 03:19:29 AM
You won't be able to transact in BTC on chain. I explained that to you before.

There will be digital currencies and they will be regulated like 666, and you won't be able to transact on chain in Bitcoin which won't be regulated.

Satoshi designed it this way and even @dinofelis admits he did, but somehow @dinofelis can't see that such a design forces the masses off chain into the totalitarianism of 666 regulated currencies.

You understand that it is not in my interest to accept 100% of what anyone says without due diligence.

I am correct about the technological points. Thus I am correct about the ramifications of those technological points.

Re: If LTC succesfully implements SegWit, will and should BTC follow?

Lightning Networks off chain transactions are analogous to garbage collection (GC) in programming, in the sense that there will be huge unpredictable spikes in transaction settlement load on the main chain, which will cause the main chain to be unresponsive to other needs during such "hiccups", similar to how your computer pauses if you have too many browser tabs open too long, while the GC mark-and-sweep algorithm attempts to free up memory.

For this reason (and others), LN and SegWit will never get activated on Bitcoin. Bitcoin was designed by the global elite for settlement between $billionaires. They want it to be as reliable as possible. So there is absolutely no way the elite are going to allow anyone to fork Bitcoin. Fugetaboutit.

Litecoin is being prepared to be the scaling coin. Bitcoin will remain the power broker settlement coin.

And nobody can change this outcome. A year from now, all dumbasses will once again realize I am always correct.
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