Topic: laughted at me when I said ASIC companies are manipulating you (Read 4650 times)

Quote from: johnyj on August 12, 2013, 01:21:22 PM

So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

Wait, not sure i'm following... You're saying the miners will keep mining bitcoin when it costs more to mine a coin then it's worth, but they wouldn't sell it?
1. Why don't they just buy coins instead of mining? Too stupid?
2. Why wouldn't they sell coins at a loss, independently wealthy & stupid?

Just like trading stocks, if you ever sold at a loss, then it means all those losses are realized, if you do not sell them, it is just checkbook loss

They could also stop mining and buy coins, either way the excange rate will be supported

This has been explained many times, the bitcoin's fixed supply totally limited the downside risk, in worst case you end up buying all the coins at $100 with 1 billion dollar, and many sophiscated investors have magnitudes more in their risk capital

I'm getting more and more lost here. What does fixed supply have to do with anything? Look at any dead alt coin. They all had "fixed supply." They're all worth exactly nothing. What gives? If i have $10 invested in bitcoin, and i know the market is going to tank tomorrow, should i not sell? Because limited supply? Sure, you never "lose" anything unless you sell, but *you never gain anything until you sell, either*.
Silliness.

You have never heard about "First mover advantage"? Because it comes first, it becomes the de-facto standard

Why do you accept fiat money which cost nothing to produce as money? Because that is the first thing you know about money when you were still a children

Human brains have only 1-2 places for one category of things, that's the reason why gold/silver not any other PM became the old money standard

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Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 01:13:37 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 01:13:37 PM

So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

johnyj

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So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

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Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 01:01:55 PM

So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

crumbs

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ahm too

GenTarkin

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Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:50:41 PM

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There are no associated costs 'cos i can't spend it anywhere. It would be doubly absurd if there were costs for that. Fiat existed long before ATMs and electronic transactions. Those things are just a bonus, an extra-added feature, inessential to fiat. Get it?

inessential? ... you kidding me?! You take away ATM's and electronic payment and all the sudden 70% of the economy wont know how to function anymore.

The really stupid 70%. The rest of us will use wallets, write checks, bank online, use credit cards etc. My, you're stubborn.

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Thats how brainwashed the banking system has gotten people.
Its like taking away electricity... nearly 80% of people would just die.

Maybe, but one thing for certain -- bitcoin would certainly die Cheesy

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My point is: this day in age, ATM's and electronic stuff is quite essential alongside fiat.

Sure, electronics are essential, though ATMs are only convenient.

Well, weve gotten quite off topic .. Im tired of going back n forth on something we both know =P haha
Yes, Im stubborn =)

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Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:50:41 PM

So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

crumbs

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Quote

inessential? ... you kidding me?! You take away ATM's and electronic payment and all the sudden 70% of the economy wont know how to function anymore.

The really stupid 70%. The rest of us will use wallets, write checks, bank online, use credit cards etc. My, you're stubborn.

Quote

Thats how brainwashed the banking system has gotten people.
Its like taking away electricity... nearly 80% of people would just die.

Maybe, but one thing for certain -- bitcoin would certainly die Cheesy

Quote

My point is: this day in age, ATM's and electronic stuff is quite essential alongside fiat.

Sure, electronics are essential, though ATMs are only convenient.

GenTarkin

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Quote

inessential? ... you kidding me?! You take away ATM's and electronic payment and all the sudden 70% of the economy wont know how to function anymore. Thats how brainwashed the banking system has gotten people.
Its like taking away electricity... nearly 80% of people would just die.

My point is: this day in age, ATM's and electronic stuff is quite essential alongside fiat.

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Quote from: johnyj on August 12, 2013, 12:43:00 PM

So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing? Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing? Cheesy

It will only raise the cost of YOUR mined coin, not others, it is a free market competition

So how does the energy factor into it? What does it have to do with bitcoin value?

Quote from: johnyj on August 12, 2013, 12:43:00 PM

You are paying the ATM costs.

No, I don't pay a dime when I withdraw from ATMs, and they take out a fee only when you withdraw abroad. I tends to believe this is the biggest effort they created to advertise the easy of use of their worthless money

It's factored into the bank's expenses, just like the free pens, keychains and the deposit slips. You also don't pay the teller each time you hand her a check. It's in there.

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So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing? Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing? Cheesy

It will only raise the cost of YOUR mined coin, not others, it is a free market competition

Quote from: johnyj on August 12, 2013, 12:43:00 PM

You are paying the ATM costs.

Let's be honest, they were beaten into submission over that! They certainly tried to charge, and definitely did for accepting 'competing issuing banks' cards.

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So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing? Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing? Cheesy

It will only raise the cost of YOUR mined coin, not others, it is a free market competition

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:33:15 PM

You are paying the ATM costs.

When you bank, the fees you pay ... pay for these costs in an indirect way. Sure, you dont pay when you actually withdraw ... banks have become masters of deceit. Someone somewhere ends up paying. When its you that does end up paying fees, you are that "someone / somewhere"

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Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 12:29:32 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:23:03 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 12, 2013, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

Fiat requires no energy. It's called paper money. Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

Yes, i'll grant you that, paper money takes a miniscule amount of energy to print, but once that's done, other than reaching into my wallet, no energy is used for transactions at the physical note level. Not the case with BTC. Now you're just being stubborn. Angry

What about the energy it took to get that physical note into your wallet. Costs of transportation, security & storage of physical notes can really start to add up.

That's why i asked you to post some data to back up your claims. Got any? If you think paper money is wasting our precious resources, back it up with some facts Cheesy

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And just think....bitcoin does this simultaneously while being the ATM as well!
With bitcoin, you dont NEED all these infrastructure systems built around it that have a shit ton of additional cost(that inevitably ends up costing customers more). Rather, you have a core infrastructure that functions at a simplistic level to carry out nearly all those functions. Because of its simplicity, its very effecient comparatively.

johnyj

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So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing? Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing? Cheesy

It will only raise the cost of YOUR mined coin, not others, it is a free market competition

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:30:28 PM

You are paying the ATM costs.

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Your counter arguments for how many people use fiat vs bitcoin...kinda is besides the point.

Not if you're comparing energy spent on something used by 7 billion people vs. energy spent on something used by seven. Come on. Cheesy

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We all know that already. Also, I think it would put it into more accurate perspective for you if you thought of it like this:
NOT how much of the world IS using bitcoin

but rather,

HOW accessible is bitcoin to everyone worldwide, therefore how useful CAN it BECOME worldwide.

How many unicorns would you like me to factor into these calculations? Thus far, bitcoin is totally inaccessible to 99.9 percent of the world 'coz they don't even know about it. Ridiculous.

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The answer to that is, way beyond the usefulness of multiple, fragmented, corrupt, fiat systems.

We're not talking about corruption or how good or bad fiat is -- simply on energy wasted. Keep on track.

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So, when looking at it that way, the power in use behind bitcoins infrastructure is way more effecient & useful than the horrible fiat financial systems of today.

People just dont realize it .... YET....

Bitcoinorama

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Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 12:29:32 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:23:03 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 12, 2013, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

What about the energy it took to get that physical note into your wallet. Transportation, security & storage of physical notes can really start to add up.

Not to mention the expensive energy intensive physical security aspects of creating notes; holograms, metal weave, watermarks, uv inks, textured papers, etc.

Cryptography and encryption removes all of that, plus it's even more portable, which was the purpose of paper money as promisionary contracts in the first place...

GenTarkin

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Quote from: crumbs on August 12, 2013, 12:29:32 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:23:03 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 12, 2013, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: GenTarkin on August 12, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

What about the energy it took to get that physical note into your wallet. Costs of transportation, security & storage of physical notes can really start to add up.
And just think....bitcoin does this simultaneously while being the ATM as well!
With bitcoin, you dont NEED all these infrastructure systems built around it that have a shit ton of additional cost(that inevitably ends up costing customers more). Rather, you have a core infrastructure that functions at a simplistic level to carry out nearly all those functions. Because of its simplicity, its very effecient comparatively.

crumbs

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Quote from: johnyj on August 12, 2013, 12:28:24 PM