Legalising would give a chance to Latin America - page 2.

jostorres

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2021, 10:36:39 PM

In reality, this is not the case. Nowadays, as long as you live in a city or in a metropolitan area that is of a certain entity, say over 50K inhabitants, you can get all the heroin you want and without showing ID. Also, no matter where you live, nowadays with Bitcoin and the deep web you can also get what you want. The difference is that what they sell you as heroin you don't know what it is cut with.

So your argument that it would be easier to buy it if it were legalized does not hold water. Today you can get all the heroin you want, as long as you can afford it.

As I have said before, I am not sure if it should be just showing the ID or with some additional step, but of course that would end the power of the mafias and empty at least half of the prisons, besides making sure that those who consumed it did not die from consuming adulterated drugs.

So you are telling me comparing two worlds, one where it is illegal and you may die and you may get caught and jailed and there are fines and it is risky and you are getting it from people who you have no idea how they are producing it , versus a world where it is legal and you know where you are getting it from and even there is maybe FDA approval pending or done, where you can get it without worrying about doing anything illegal, would have similar situations or the first would even be better? I have to say that is bs. If it is legal then there will be more people who will have access without worrying about it at all.

Instead of getting from some thug in the ghetto, it will be a shop that you will get from. All in all you will be getting it a lot easier without any worry at all which is the proof that people will be using it a lot more as well since it is easier to trust and not worry and not fear.

hatshepsut93

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I also think that it's naive to think that cartels will simply vanish if all drugs were to be made legal. They are so powerful that they can just switch to other activities and keep extending their control over society with their unmatched monopoly on violence. They have already amassed large amounts of money and resources which would allow maintaining their structure for a long period of time.

iv4n

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Quote from: paxmao on October 20, 2021, 07:49:12 AM

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Nice words Paxmao, I agree with you! In the end, victims are the normal people, who just want to live a normal life, but the system doesn't let them!

If you didn't you should watch it! I think they explained what's really happening, and this is an old documentary, but still many people really miss the point about what is really happening around:

Quote from: Hydrogen on October 21, 2021, 06:56:42 PM

If I remember right, portugal and spain have had success decriminalizing drugs. There is documented real world application for that policy being effective.
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And you can add Luxembourg to that list:

Luxembourg to become first country in Europe to legalize cannabis - https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/22/europe/luxembourg-cannabis-legalization-intl/index.html

Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2021, 10:36:39 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on October 22, 2021, 06:43:14 PM

If getting hard drugs was as easy as going to nearest shop and showing your ID, a lot more people would get addicted. Anyone can have a bad day or a depressive episode and decide to alleviate it with some heroin.

In reality, this is not the case. Nowadays, as long as you live in a city or in a metropolitan area that is of a certain entity, say over 50K inhabitants, you can get all the heroin you want and without showing ID. Also, no matter where you live, nowadays with Bitcoin and the deep web you can also get what you want. The difference is that what they sell you as heroin you don't know what it is cut with.

In reality, we have drugs that come from nature, and the ones that are pure chemistry! And when people can't get the real stuff because it's too expensive they will turn to cheaper ones, and that cheaper ones are the drugs that can literally fuck you up! Poker Player is right, the reality is that the end-user gets "who knows what", and if the market is regulated that wouldn't happen!

Who didn't should watch America’s War on Drugs! I think it's very educational, you can get another perspective about the whole "drug war" situation!

so98nn

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If you have seen the breaking bad then you will come to know the truth about whole story. I mean though just a series then also it is perfect replica of real life drug peddlers and manufacturers who are running these illegal businesses under their white collar business. There is billion dollar industry which runs on the drugs and this actually converts the white money into black money over the period of time. I mean whenever the money is used in millions of dollars to buy the drugs its obvious that this would be left out as cash form and also would be hidden from government by not paying the taxes on it.

Truly, if it gets converted into the ethical way of dealing it, then industry would boom like crazy.

However, the question still remains: How would you stop the aftermath that will occur after heavy drug consumption and increased diseases and disorders due to them.

Over the years it can also cause genetic disorders which would be irreversible. So ethical or not, comes later, first think about the after math at the cost of recovering taxes.

TheGreatPython

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"Hard" part is the part that I do not agree with. I mean you can't just expect people to make stuff like cocaine and heroin to be legal. That is not going to happen, it literally kills people with ONE usage if you do it too much. Sure you could drink booze and drive and die as well, but it is rare for people to drink enough booze to die instantly. So those hard drugs will probably not be legal anywhere ever again.

However stuff like weed not being legal really confuses me as well. If you look at around the world, there is a stigma around it, even leftists of some nations do not like it, I do not get the point. I mean cigarettes are allowed in many nations, nearly every single nation right? Or drink is allowed in most major nations as well. Why not weed? What does weed to do a person that others do not? It should have been legal long time ago.

famososMuertos

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That's the point, legalize what kind of drug? and then controlling consumption or addiction in that scheme should not be easier, it should even be more complex.

The United States is always mentioned, the per capita consumption is the highest for obvious reasons population, purchasing power and addiction, but these variables are a global problem.

In any case we can look or review since it is a very complex issue in existing legal drugs, for example the opioid crisis.

Drugs legal seems to be a way to end violence in the streets, mainly in Latin countries, But legalizing them in the version of hard drugs does not guarantee that contributes to development, in fact, legalizing it in the region does not mean higher income because this type of drug would require other countries to accept that legal sale and fortunately it seems that many countries They are in the process of legalizing certain drugs, but staying "no" on drugs as harmful as heroin or cocaine.

For now there is a path traveled with cannabis in the recreational sense and for medical use.

^{Reference of interest:}
^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic_in_the_United_States}

Hispo

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You have got some points there but there are some points as well that concerns me about legalizing hard drugs.

During the teen years, while children start to become young adults many of them could be gullible or naive when comes to drugs (of any kind).
I mean, who has not heard/seen a teen trying their first cigarette/beer/weed joint the "cool guys" offered to them, in order not to seem lame in their eyes they take it, cought a bit/get dizzy/ get drunk/vomit of front of them, ect. But nothing major happens, it is part of life to encounter oneself on those situations.

Now with drugs like Cocaine, Heroine, Crack, ect. Some of them (specially crack) are highly addictive even after one of a few doses and it is something that could make a naive teen or young adult to struggle months after the first try, leading to all kind of unwanted or depressing situations.

I am usually in favor of libertarian ideals, but when comes to hard drugs, I am not sure it would be a good idea. Just my opinion.

CryptocurencyKing

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Drug, drug abuse and the government. Apparently, this has been a menace in today's society and sadly, its prohibition or out laying it would never make it go away. You can imagine the level of safety in America, having virtually camera on every street and yet, people still get involved in criminal activities not to even mention drug merchandise.

Out lawing drugs just makes it a big business as it creates a sense of scarcity to it and also, a dangerous business as you can see from the actions of the cartels. I think OP had a point, making a possible relativism with drugs and alcohol. Both are two commodities in which, it's abuse can have a negative impact on an individual but then, one is legal and have been doing well while the other is not.

If the same view as with alcohol could be applied to drugs, looking at the fact that, Portugal and Spain have had some success with the policies on drugs. It could be adopted, properly monitored and taxed as well. Ensuring it doesn't get to the wrong hands as in minors would be the focus now and possibly, individuals involved in an abuse gets rehabilitation.

Fortify

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Quote from: paxmao on October 20, 2021, 07:49:12 AM

Let's face it - recreational hard drugs are there to stay. Do war on drugs or pretend that all is because people south of Rio Grande are all "rapists and gangsters" - ignoring the fact that millions in US are willing to blow just about anything in their noses or gulp any funny looking pill that promises them a minute of fun, none of that matters. They are there.

And the real victims of it are not the narcos and are not the people who actually use drugs - nobody is forcing them to put stuff into their bodies if they do not choose to (at least in 99% of the cases). Nope, the victims are the people south of Rio Grande who actually would love to have a decent country and go about their legitimate business without being at risk of being killed or knowing that it is even worse to call the Police and that the political and justice system is so broken that they basically on their own.

It is not going to go away. The DEA will be there self-justifying by capturing a few, more will take their place and the circle will go on and on.

It is time to assume the truth and legalize. And get taxes from it. Is that ethical? I think so.

The impact on Central America would be huge, as this huge market would surface and there would be no need for all the violence that surrounds it. It will give a decent chance of survival to a number of government systems that are failing against the might of the cartels and contribute with taxes and exports.

In US, just as when the "Prohibition" ended in US, the dark economy was greatly reduced. Drugs would have controls and would be no different from Alcohol (a drug arguably) and the recently legalised cannabis.

The "war on drugs" has been the biggest disaster in the history of America, like the prohibition era (alcohol) but it has continued for much longer. Unfortunately it is America as the richest country which has to come up with the right solution because they are the biggest end recipient of all the misery from production to trafficking. The officials are still stuck in the mindset of trying to crush something which is a large part of the nature of many people, intoxication and addiction. If instead of playing a game of cat and mouse with cartels for decades they focused internally on treating drug addicts with compassion then the problem could be fixed at the source. However no government ever wants to take the step of helping addicts and switching this whole game around because it becomes a form of political suicide.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Poker Player on October 22, 2021, 10:36:39 PM

In reality, this is not the case. Nowadays, as long as you live in a city or in a metropolitan area that is of a certain entity, say over 50K inhabitants, you can get all the heroin you want and without showing ID. Also, no matter where you live, nowadays with Bitcoin and the deep web you can also get what you want. The difference is that what they sell you as heroin you don't know what it is cut with.

Sure thing experienced junkies can get drugs as easily as picking groceries from a store, but for people who never done it it's not that simple, they don't have connections with the drug dealers, they have higher chance of getting scammed or meeting an undercover officer.

And currently America is undergoing a large opiod crisis which has its roots in completely legal prescription drugs. This is a glimpse to what a full legalization of all drugs could hold.

Poker Player

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on October 22, 2021, 06:43:14 PM

If getting hard drugs was as easy as going to nearest shop and showing your ID, a lot more people would get addicted. Anyone can have a bad day or a depressive episode and decide to alleviate it with some heroin.

In reality, this is not the case. Nowadays, as long as you live in a city or in a metropolitan area that is of a certain entity, say over 50K inhabitants, you can get all the heroin you want and without showing ID. Also, no matter where you live, nowadays with Bitcoin and the deep web you can also get what you want. The difference is that what they sell you as heroin you don't know what it is cut with.

So your argument that it would be easier to buy it if it were legalized does not hold water. Today you can get all the heroin you want, as long as you can afford it.

As I have said before, I am not sure if it should be just showing the ID or with some additional step, but of course that would end the power of the mafias and empty at least half of the prisons, besides making sure that those who consumed it did not die from consuming adulterated drugs.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Hydrogen on October 21, 2021, 06:56:42 PM

If I remember right, portugal and spain have had success decriminalizing drugs. There is documented real world application for that policy being effective.

Decriminalizing personal use of drugs is very different from making all drugs legal.

Quote from: Hydrogen on October 21, 2021, 06:56:42 PM

There are many inaccurate perspectives in public circulation. Many say its only possible to become addicted if someone has a weak will or a weak spirit. Untrue. Drugs tap into the part of the brain that tell the body it needs to eat and breathe. Quitting drugs can be like resisting the natural urge to eat / breathe. Which is part of what makes it so hard to overcome. For some its just a part of their natural environment and lifestyle. Its hard to escape unless their environment and social circle shifts.

Drugs like heroin basically replace chemicals in human body that are responsible for certain functions, so it can be impossible/deadly to get off such drugs as the body no longer produces those chemicals.

It's a really hard discussion whether such things should be freely available to people or not. Removing drug cartels is just one part of the equation. Lives ruined by easily available drugs is the other.

Yes, it's true that people find ways to get drugs when they are illegal, but this absolutely does deter some potential users. If getting hard drugs was as easy as going to nearest shop and showing your ID, a lot more people would get addicted. Anyone can have a bad day or a depressive episode and decide to alleviate it with some heroin.

LUCKMCFLY

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In Colombia it was as a bill to legalize drugs, and it was something that impacts only to know it, under which they alleged that people are the owners of their actions, and if they are of legal age they know what the risks are, in the case that Many things are legalized could improve, so much so that even consumption is something medicinal and thus a meaningless network would not be built where a whole network of people is criminalized.

However, they did not approve it, I think that the business model is not only for those who make and grow drugs, but also for the police, and all those who do business to let drugs pass from one place to another, stop perceiving that Money would cause in many of those entities losses that they do not want to assume and it is money that they are used to receiving, of course they did not say that, but it is or what happens in reality, I know it from living in the border area with Colombia.

Poker Player

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I am quite in favor of removing the bans on this issue, and I find it hypocritical.

So many lives have been lost, so much effort in police activity, DEA, etc. in a crime that would end if they were legalized. It would take away their power and the main source of financing for the mafias.

The only thing I'm not clear on is how to address the issue of harder drugs like fentanyl, which is much more potent than heroin, and other new generation drugs.

Regarding marijuana, for example, I think it should be over-the-counter, period. If you can buy alcohol, coffee and tobacco freely, you should be able to buy marijuana. I suppose for drugs like cocaine and heroin there should be a little more control, but I'm not clear on the ideal way to approach that.

Hydrogen

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If I remember right, portugal and spain have had success decriminalizing drugs. There is documented real world application for that policy being effective.

Quote

Decriminalization: Different Models in Portugal and Spain

This paper analyzes drug policy and related outcomes in Portugal and Spain after decriminalization. Portugal and Spain are usually singled out as countries with permissive drug policies because they have decriminalized drug use. In these countries, individual drug consumption is not considered a crime, and drug users are generally not subject to criminal sanctions. People are increasingly demanding different policies on marijuana, particularly through cannabis social clubs in Spain. In recent years, decriminalization and an absence of criminal punishments for drug users, along with a trend toward less severe punishments for drug trafficking, have not been associated with significant increases in drug use. Portugal and Spain continued their normal patterns of drug use after decriminalization, supporting a growing consensus that decriminalization is not associated with escalating drug use and drug-related problems.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-65361-7_8

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Sorry the above link is paywalled. There are still many good sources of information with keyword search: portugal, spain, drug decriminalization.

One of the big issues with substance abuse is the lack of good information relating to it.

Meth amphetamines could be a leading cause of erectile dysfunction & male impotence. There are x-ray scans of long term meth abusers brains, which show they have lost approximately 30% of their functional brain matter as a result of the corrosive affects of meth. I think that's the type of information people need if they're to make good decisions on drug abuse.

There are many inaccurate perspectives in public circulation. Many say its only possible to become addicted if someone has a weak will or a weak spirit. Untrue. Drugs tap into the part of the brain that tell the body it needs to eat and breathe. Quitting drugs can be like resisting the natural urge to eat / breathe. Which is part of what makes it so hard to overcome. For some its just a part of their natural environment and lifestyle. Its hard to escape unless their environment and social circle shifts.

dothebeats

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No matter how hard governments restrict illegal drugs, it will always find its way to those people who consume it for recreation or to satiate their addiction. I don't think controlling the supply or making it illegal, or declaring war on drugs will make things better, yet I don't think allowing its consumption for recreation will make things better either. It will always be a stalemate case, as abuse will always find its way no matter what stance the government has on illicit drugs.

I say try to limit the sale of the key chemicals needed for synthesizing and creating such drugs, and require certain permits before one can purchase said chemicals and take it home. That may not solve things completely, but at the least people will have second thoughts before trying to purchase and produce such illicit synthetic drugs.

Vatimins

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Illegal drugs that are unnatural shod just remain illegal. I'm not saying this because I am against the help it can guve to economical statuses in many countries but instead, I am against it because no matter how much you control yourself to not abuse such substances, sooner or later there will be bad effects on the body. And don't even get me started about the people who would take advantage lf the easy access to these drugs jn krder to abuse it asuch as possible. In my opinion, it may help economies in the short term, but in the long run, it will destroy economies. This will be because of the increasing number of people who'd destroy theur futures because of such substances that they never would've been able to touch had it not been legalized.

coupable

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Quote from: hugeblack on October 21, 2021, 07:52:35 AM

The negative effects of the worst use of any medical recipes will be greater harm than violence and the black market you promote.
The control is not done by security forces, but a comprehensive model must take into account many aspects: the minimum wage, education, the problem of refugee and borders, political stability, economic in countries where these materials are cultivated.

Some drug codification includes ensuring that it is safe for human use and does not cause long-term damage but this does not mean to sell all kinds of hope in the disappearance of this market.

Any excessive use of drugs would surely cause long-term damage. Don't believe who talk to you about moderated consumption, it's a beautiful lie.
About the regulation, i think it's always depend on the type of drug; cannabis is a soft drug as lng as it's not taken in a regular basis. I don't think Latin America will take any chance from legalizing any chemical solution that may cause all the damages of addiction in average terms.

I confirm this statement :

Quote from: amishmanish

This is not to say that there are no ill effects of drugs. Yet, the general increase in crime and associated degeneracy is more a reflection of the society itself, rather than purely mental effects that drugs can have on a person.

hugeblack

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The negative effects of the worst use of any medical recipes will be greater harm than violence and the black market you promote.
The control is not done by security forces, but a comprehensive model must take into account many aspects: the minimum wage, education, the problem of refugee and borders, political stability, economic in countries where these materials are cultivated.

Some drug codification includes ensuring that it is safe for human use and does not cause long-term damage but this does not mean to sell all kinds of hope in the disappearance of this market.

Ucy

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Bad or Evil Law create problems like that in societies. Rather than create laws that become burden to people, create something that they can't find too difficult to obey so you don't create anarchy or lawlessness in your society.
If a good natural drink is safe for consumption, why ban it in the first place? If it has consumption limit that could cause problems to the drinker/society if surpassed, then create a law that prevents people from taking too much or abusing it. *This is limited to things that have been permitted to us (by the CREATOR of our World) to consumption.

Topic: Legalising would give a chance to Latin America - page 2. (Read 355 times)