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Topic: Libertarian my ass! - page 9. (Read 9528 times)

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 29, 2013, 01:08:48 PM
#48

I also have read plenty of Hayek and Mises, same thing for anarchist theorists and even more important: history books - and this is why I lol when I read about free market capitalists calling themselves libertarians or anarchists.

I LOL when I hear people refer to the rear compartment of an automobile as a trunk or boot and the lid at the front as a hood or bonnet. Language lulz.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 29, 2013, 01:05:27 PM
#47
Personally, I don't have much issue with drift of language. It happens. Now there are left-libertarians and right-libertarians. The underlying meaning is in support of increased liberties. Of course, I believe that the left-libertarians are misguided in their aims and understanding of liberty but that's a different argument (The left has a long history of using words in diametric opposition to their actual meaning in any case).

libertarian in the US sense seems to be gaining ground in the UK also. I read several sites from there and libertarian is typically used in this manner. This is hardly surprising. In the US, liberty has long meant freedom from the interference of others, in France and much of Europe, it means freedom to be a bum and not starve.

legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
#46
Then, around 1850, it was used for the first time by Joseph Déjacque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque) in reply to Joseph-Pierre Proudhon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon) as a synonim of anarchist - and from there expanded as an euphemism for the anarchist term.

Thus, the modern US definition of libertarian as a "radical free market, anti-state capitalist" is rather funny.

Well, as we've already established that "anarchism" doesn't mean "anarchosyndicalism," using "Libertarian" as a synonym for "anarchist" doesn't rule out "radical free market, anti-state capitalist," now, does it?

Please be serious, anarchism is anti-capitalist by definition, if you want to have and use your own meaning for the word "anarchism" go ahead - but don't fool yourself with stupid reasonings.

Could you provide the definition you're using? It doesn't seem to be a standard one.

The definition of the ones who used the term ANARCHISM for the first time - thus defining it: Bakunin, Kropotkin, Proudhon... And Emma Goldman, Rocker, Malatesta, Stirner, etc. etc.

Anarcho-capitalism is something created from thin air by Rothbard, and its a term that can be used seriously only by someone ignoring the true origins of the term anarchism. I will say more: no one who have read Bakunin and Kropotkin could ever use the word anarcho-capitalism without laughing out loud, even if they are convinced anti-state liberals.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:54:37 PM
#45
About your question: I'm really not interested in discussing if anarchism is good/bad/practical/anachronic/whatever - I just wanted to point out the origin of the term libertarian/anarchist, which is used in a rather strange, twisted and funny way in the US (I also have an opinion about why that happens, but I would like to stick to the facts only and not to speculate)

Anarchism is used in it's actual meaning:
a-, an-   not, without
-arch-   ruler
-ism      doctrine, belief

Ergo: the belief that there should be no rulers. Not anti-market.


That is like saying that Nationalsocialism is only a form of "nationalist" "socialism", and it has nothing to do with intollerance or racism. Please be serious, anarchism is anti-capitalist by definition, if you want to have and use your own meaning for the word "anarchism" go ahead - but don't fool yourself with stupid reasonings.

National Socialism is 'National' 'Socialism'.  I recommend some Hayek on why it inevitably leads to what you identify as 'Nazi's'.

Nazi's are Nazionalsozialists - and racism and intollerance is part of the core of the nazi ideology - full stop.

I also have read plenty of Hayek and Mises, same thing for anarchist theorists and even more important: history books - and this is why I lol when I read about free market capitalists calling themselves libertarians or anarchists.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
March 29, 2013, 12:53:36 PM
#44
Then, around 1850, it was used for the first time by Joseph Déjacque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque) in reply to Joseph-Pierre Proudhon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon) as a synonim of anarchist - and from there expanded as an euphemism for the anarchist term.

Thus, the modern US definition of libertarian as a "radical free market, anti-state capitalist" is rather funny.

Well, as we've already established that "anarchism" doesn't mean "anarchosyndicalism," using "Libertarian" as a synonym for "anarchist" doesn't rule out "radical free market, anti-state capitalist," now, does it?

Please be serious, anarchism is anti-capitalist by definition, if you want to have and use your own meaning for the word "anarchism" go ahead - but don't fool yourself with stupid reasonings.

Could you provide the definition you're using? It doesn't seem to be a standard one.
full member
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
March 29, 2013, 12:50:21 PM
#43
About your question: I'm really not interested in discussing if anarchism is good/bad/practical/anachronic/whatever - I just wanted to point out the origin of the term libertarian/anarchist, which is used in a rather strange, twisted and funny way in the US (I also have an opinion about why that happens, but I would like to stick to the facts only and not to speculate)

Anarchism is used in it's actual meaning:
a-, an-   not, without
-arch-   ruler
-ism      doctrine, belief

Ergo: the belief that there should be no rulers. Not anti-market.


That is like saying that Nationalsocialism is only a form of "nationalist" "socialism", and it has nothing to do with intollerance or racism. Please be serious, anarchism is anti-capitalist by definition, if you want to have and use your own meaning for the word "anarchism" go ahead - but don't fool yourself with stupid reasonings.

Think critically here for a second; you are calling an associative economic philosophy of early 'Anarchist's' the definition, while dismissing the actual etymological definition as foolish, stupid reasoning.

Also, National Socialism is 'National' 'Socialism'.  I recommend some Hayek on why it inevitably leads to what you identify as 'Nazi's'.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:48:54 PM
#42
About your question: I'm really not interested in discussing if anarchism is good/bad/practical/anachronic/whatever - I just wanted to point out the origin of the term libertarian/anarchist, which is used in a rather strange, twisted and funny way in the US (I also have an opinion about why that happens, but I would like to stick to the facts only and not to speculate)

Anarchism is used in it's actual meaning:
a-, an-   not, without
-arch-   ruler
-ism      doctrine, belief

Ergo: the belief that there should be no rulers. Not anti-market.


That is like saying that Nationalsocialism is only a form of "nationalist" "socialism", and it has nothing to do with intollerance or racism. Please be serious, anarchism is anti-capitalist by definition, if you want to have and use your own meaning for the word "anarchism" go ahead - but don't fool yourself with stupid reasonings.
full member
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
March 29, 2013, 12:46:31 PM
#41

This insitence of stating that anti-capitalism is not inherent to anarchism makes me think you did not read/understand the works of Malatesta, Bakunin, Proudhon, Kropotkin, etc. If you did, you would have understood that they created their theory as a reaction and in opposition to the capitalists free market theorists.


It sounds to me like what you should be saying is "The first self-labeled users of the word 'Anarchism' were anti-capitalist".  

That doesn't change the definition of the word 'Anarchy', which means, literally, 'without leader(s)'.

edit: Myrkul beat me to it
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:45:27 PM
#40
Well, perhaps you are confusing things by bringing in "anarchism" then. We could concentrate on "libertarianism" but I have to confess that I'm not that familiar with the origins. I suspect the rise in adoption of the term has more to do with the stealing of the label "liberal" by those who are anything-but than seeking back into the far past. I often see the term "classical liberal" used as a synonym.

I guess an important thing to bear in mind is that the past 100 years or so have seen the rise of the state to overbearing stature. That has skewed the field quite a lot.

I will explain you the origin of the word libertarian: it was used for the first time by Illustration free-thinkers in France, as a philosophic position agains determinism, which was a philosophy that said that everything that happens is related in a sort of cause-effect relationship. It had no economic or political meaning.

Then, around 1850, it was used for the first time by Joseph Déjacque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque) in reply to Joseph-Pierre Proudhon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon) as a synonim of anarchist - and from there expanded as an euphemism for the anarchist term.

Thus, the modern US definition of libertarian as a "radical free market, anti-state capitalist" is rather funny.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
March 29, 2013, 12:44:31 PM
#39
About your question: I'm really not interested in discussing if anarchism is good/bad/practical/anachronic/whatever - I just wanted to point out the origin of the term libertarian/anarchist, which is used in a rather strange, twisted and funny way in the US (I also have an opinion about why that happens, but I would like to stick to the facts only and not to speculate)

Anarchism is used in it's actual meaning:
a-, an-   not, without
-arch-   ruler
-ism      doctrine, belief

Ergo: the belief that there should be no rulers. Not anti-market.

If you want to bitch about people using libertarian in a meaning other than it's original, perhaps you should look in a mirror, first:

Quote
The first recorded use was in 1789 by William Belsham in a discussion of free will and in opposition to "necessitarian" (or determinist) views.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
March 29, 2013, 12:39:52 PM
#38

Anarchists think that work is a reward in itself

Can you come by and paint my house? You'll find it very rewarding.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:36:19 PM
#37

I am a farmer, and I own my field. One day, I decide I would like to trade some of my grain for a new tractor. I find someone willing to build me a tractor in exchange for some of my grain. Have I done something wrong? Has the tractor manufacturer?

The tractor maker gives you a tractor because building tractors is its own reward.
The steel maker gives him the steel because working around dangerously hot molten metal is its own reward.
The miner give the ore to the smelter because crawling around in holes in the ground is its own reward.

Anyone who believes this shit should schedule a road trip and go on a mine tour.

Well, traditional anarchists deal in two ways for the "bad jobs" (crawling in holes) that nobody would like to do:

1) Some anarchists, let's say the "purist", say that unpleasant but necessary jobs would be shared by all members of the community, always voluntarily. For example: you would go to mine yourself for a week because it's a service for your community, and you would be happy to do that.
2) Some others say that those works would be associated with a higher reward to the individuals performing this jobs.

Then you have the capitalist way to deal with unpleasant jobs: you will always have someone hungry enough do that job, because crawaling in holes is the only way he has to feed himself

Normally anarchists are for 1), and they explain why this works and why this type of mutual aid is natural to humanity through studies on both animals and pre-private property communities, etc. Of course reading is advised, and if you decide that this is utter bullshit and that type of society is pure utopia, that no human would do something "because its a service for the community", no problem: that was not the point of my post.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 29, 2013, 12:32:08 PM
#36
Well, perhaps you are confusing things by bringing in "anarchism" then. We could concentrate on "libertarianism" but I have to confess that I'm not that familiar with the origins. I suspect the rise in adoption of the term has more to do with the stealing of the label "liberal" by those who are anything-but than seeking back into the far past. I often see the term "classical liberal" used as a synonym.

I guess an important thing to bear in mind is that the past 100 years or so have seen the rise of the state to overbearing stature. That has skewed the field quite a lot.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:25:57 PM
#35

If you take "anti-capitalist" out from the equation you won't have anarchism - you may have a sort of extreme minarchy, ultra-liberalism, or call it whatever you want: but you will have something else, not anarchism. These are the facts, and I'm sure you will agree with me if you read the works of the anarchist thinkers.

What makes you think I haven't?

You avoided answering my question.

I am a farmer, and I own my field. One day, I decide I would like to trade some of my grain for a new tractor. I find someone willing to build me a tractor in exchange for some of my grain. Have I done something wrong? Has the tractor manufacturer?

This insitence of stating that anti-capitalism is not inherent to anarchism makes me think you did not read/understand the works of Malatesta, Bakunin, Proudhon, Kropotkin, etc. If you did, you would have understood that they created their theory as a reaction and in opposition to the capitalists free market theorists.

About your question: I'm really not interested in discussing if anarchism is good/bad/practical/anachronic/whatever - I just wanted to point out the origin of the term libertarian/anarchist, which is used in a rather strange, twisted and funny way in the US (I also have an opinion about why that happens, but I would like to stick to the facts only and not to speculate)
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
March 29, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
#34

I am a farmer, and I own my field. One day, I decide I would like to trade some of my grain for a new tractor. I find someone willing to build me a tractor in exchange for some of my grain. Have I done something wrong? Has the tractor manufacturer?

The tractor maker gives you a tractor because building tractors is its own reward.
The steel maker gives him the steel because working around dangerously hot molten metal is its own reward.
The miner give the ore to the smelter because crawling around in holes in the ground is its own reward.

Well, yes... I had taken that as granted. I was just curious if I had somehow enslaved the tractor manufacturer, or if he had somehow enslaved me.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
March 29, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
#33
If Europeans had wealth similar to Americans, you would be "capitalist" libertarians as well.  As it stands, you are collectivist libertarians due to centuries of serfdom and overpopulation.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 29, 2013, 12:20:45 PM
#32

I am a farmer, and I own my field. One day, I decide I would like to trade some of my grain for a new tractor. I find someone willing to build me a tractor in exchange for some of my grain. Have I done something wrong? Has the tractor manufacturer?

The tractor maker gives you a tractor because building tractors is its own reward.
The steel maker gives him the steel because working around dangerously hot molten metal is its own reward.
The miner give the ore to the smelter because crawling around in holes in the ground is its own reward.

Anyone who believes this shit should schedule a road trip and go on a mine tour.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
March 29, 2013, 12:18:11 PM
#31

If you take "anti-capitalist" out from the equation you won't have anarchism - you may have a sort of extreme minarchy, ultra-liberalism, or call it whatever you want: but you will have something else, not anarchism. These are the facts, and I'm sure you will agree with me if you read the works of the anarchist thinkers.

What makes you think I haven't?

You avoided answering my question.

I am a farmer, and I own my field. One day, I decide I would like to trade some of my grain for a new tractor. I find someone willing to build me a tractor in exchange for some of my grain. Have I done something wrong? Has the tractor manufacturer?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
March 29, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
#30
Anarchism was founded by Bakunin et al. in the First International, and it was born as an anti-capitalist movement.

The first anarchists were anarchosyndicalists. That does not mean that anarchism is anacrchosyndicalism.

I strongly disagree. Anarchism is a a) free-association, b) anti-capitalist and c) anti-state philosophy. Anarchism was born opposed to social darwinists who defended the capitalist competitive free market as the "perfect" and "natural way" to organize the economy. The fundational works of anarchism are a reply to XIX century liberals who started to defend that competition in capitalist free market replicated nature and its "fight for survival" (see "The Fight for Existance" by Thomas H. Huxley, which motivated "The Mutual Aid" by Kropotkin), and thus capitalism was the perfect and natural way to organize economy.

As I explained earlier, free market capitalists and anarchist have a commong origin, the pre-capitalist liberals - but the fundamental difference between them was not "state or not state", but the way in which to organize economy.

If you take "anti-capitalist" out from the equation you won't have anarchism - you may have a sort of extreme minarchy, ultra-liberalism, or call it whatever you want: but you will have something else, not anarchism. These are the facts, and I'm sure you will agree with me if you read the works of the anarchist thinkers.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 29, 2013, 11:59:49 AM
#29

I however don't subscribe to those who want to abolish competition and demand "solidarity". If worker collective A can't get their shit done and produce much crappier shoes than collective B, well then they will eventually be out of business and have to look for something new. You'd need a world-wide planned economy to prevent that, and I'm not for such a thing, even if it's supposedly implemented "democratically". To close the loop to Austrian economics, well the market does not care if the decisions in a business are made at the top by the managers, or crowd-sourced and agreed on by the whole staff.

In fact, if collectives are so much better, they should be able to outshine all the inefficient top-down owned businesses and put them all out of business. Not happening and you can't claim it's all because of fatcat capitalists controlling the economy.
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