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Topic: Liberty Reserve the popular digital currency got shut down by the authorities (Read 7904 times)

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
For their part, leaders of the Bitcoin community have tried to stay within the bounds of the law. ”If the U.S. government decided that Bitcoin was a bad thing and told me, ‘Stop doing what you’re doing,’ I’d stop doing what I’m doing,” said Gavin Andressen, Bitcoin’s lead developer, in a recent interview.

So that's true? He would just put his work down like that after being picked on by once by the US Govt ? Wonderful... 

That was what he say, but btc has a few developers ya..
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
For their part, leaders of the Bitcoin community have tried to stay within the bounds of the law. ”If the U.S. government decided that Bitcoin was a bad thing and told me, ‘Stop doing what you’re doing,’ I’d stop doing what I’m doing,” said Gavin Andressen, Bitcoin’s lead developer, in a recent interview.

So that's true? He would just put his work down like that after being picked on by once by the US Govt ? Wonderful... 
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
An indictment! Everyone gets an indictment! [/Oprah]
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Thanks all for the sharing , here is some more news : Liberty Reserve Founder Indicted on $6 Billion Money-Laundering ...
Wired-13 hours ago
The founder of digital currency system Liberty Reserve has been indicted in the United States along with six other people in a $6 billion ...

Feds shut down payment network Liberty Reserve. Is Bitcoin next?
Washington Post (blog)-by Ezra Klein-11 hours ago
Federal prosecutors have shut down Liberty Reserve, an alternative payment network that they say was a $6 billion scam “designed to help ...

Note their story on Bitcoin ....>>

Of course, that description could just as easily describe Bitcoin. Anyone can create a new address for accepting bitcoins and then transmit funds to other Bitcoin addresses without furnishing identifying information. This feature has raised concerns that the currency has been used for activities such as drug dealing or illegal gambling.

The U.S. government faults Liberty Reserve for requiring users to fund their accounts through intermediaries called “exchangers.” In the prosecutors’ view, these intermediaries helped the core Liberty Reserve network avoid collecting identifying information about their users. The Bitcoin economy has a similar structure. Users buy bitcoins with conventional currencies via online exchanges. Some of these intermediaries do collect information about their users, but once users have purchased their bitcoins they can conduct unregulated, and practically untraceable, transactions with other Bitcoin users.

For their part, leaders of the Bitcoin community have tried to stay within the bounds of the law. ”If the U.S. government decided that Bitcoin was a bad thing and told me, ‘Stop doing what you’re doing,’ I’d stop doing what I’m doing,” said Gavin Andressen, Bitcoin’s lead developer, in a recent interview.

But there’s also at least one important difference between Bitcoin and Liberty Reserve: If the authorities concluded that Bitcoin were a money laundering scheme, it’s not clear whom they’d prosecute. There’s no Budovsky for Bitcoin. Rather, the online currency was created by “Satoshi Nakamoto,” widely regarded as a pseudonym. Bitcoin transactions are processed in a distributed fashion by thousands of “miners” around the world. It would be difficult for the United States to indict all of them, and doing so would likely drive Bitcoin mining underground — which could make it even more attractive to criminals.

That sprawling, decentralized network would create a dilemma for federal regulators if former Liberty Reserve users switched to Bitcoin. The crypto currency doesn’t fit well into existing money-laundering laws, and there’s no one who can be required to reform the network to bring it into compliance. Trying to shut down Bitcoin could prove futile — the feds can make life hard for individual Bitcoin users but likely could not destroy the network altogether.

Civil libertarians have long lauded the Internet’s ability to resist government’s efforts to control the flow of information. The emergence of Bitcoin could threaten the United States’ ability to control the flow of electronic funds, too.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard.  
I don't think it will go beyond S.Dice. If some site owners will refuse U.S. users, someone else will accept them from USA-unfriendly country like Russia or China.

Perhaps, but I still feel that MtGox needs to leave Japan right now to avoid being caught up in the shitstorm that will happen when the Japanese government is solicited to assist the U.S. justice system. Any U.S. business records recovered from MtGox will be thoroughly researched for possible illegal transactions and if they have cut ties with the U.S. it will make their life easier. Once again, Erik Voorhees shows his business acumen by staying ahead of the curve.

Are you sure that the japanese governemnet will allow that?

I went to business school in japan, and I don't think they will.

As long as this is the Japanese military I'll have my doubts about the independence of the Japanese government. http://www.stripes.com/news/some-normalcy-returns-to-bases-relief-for-japanese-rolls-in-1.137612
sr. member
Activity: 746
Merit: 253
Thus, the DOT's interpretation of BSA are going to be granted quite a bit of deference.  This won't ultimately matter when it comes to Mutum Sigilum's defense, but it is what matters in the long haul, when the DOT finally gets around to promulgating BTC regulations.

Could they write new regulations?  Sure, but they haven't done that yet.

Were Mutum Sigilum's actions prohibited under the current rules?  That's not so clear.

So, were the federal agencies acting "correctly" in taking down Mutum Sigilum?  I'm not sure that it matters.  Will the charges stick? Well, it isn't even clear what the charges will be just yet.  I am sure of one thing, though: it's going to be fun to read the briefs!

The basis of the seizure warrant was 18 USC section 1960.  So that's what we're dealing with right now.  Could the feds add some additional charges?  Sure, but that hasn't happened yet.  You're proposing a lot of hypotheticals, and it's not yet clear how this will play out.

You're right this is going to be an interesting case.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 501
Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard.  
I don't think it will go beyond S.Dice. If some site owners will refuse U.S. users, someone else will accept them from USA-unfriendly country like Russia or China.

Perhaps, but I still feel that MtGox needs to leave Japan right now to avoid being caught up in the shitstorm that will happen when the Japanese government is solicited to assist the U.S. justice system. Any U.S. business records recovered from MtGox will be thoroughly researched for possible illegal transactions and if they have cut ties with the U.S. it will make their life easier. Once again, Erik Voorhees shows his business acumen by staying ahead of the curve.

Are you sure that the japanese governemnet will allow that?

I went to business school in japan, and I don't think they will.
sr. member
Activity: 381
Merit: 255
Great news! A huge payment system used by many. Finally the crowd will obviously move to Bitcoin, as it has grown bigger than any non fiat based system ever. I guess its only a matter of time before Bitcoin swallows all non fiat systems. Liberty Reserve was actually the last and biggest of them all standing, now that is gone and it proves once again E-gold, LR and such systems are here to disappear.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard. 
I don't think it will go beyond S.Dice. If some site owners will refuse U.S. users, someone else will accept them from USA-unfriendly country like Russia or China.

Perhaps, but I still feel that MtGox needs to leave Japan right now to avoid being caught up in the shitstorm that will happen when the Japanese government is solicited to assist the U.S. justice system. Any U.S. business records recovered from MtGox will be thoroughly researched for possible illegal transactions and if they have cut ties with the U.S. it will make their life easier. Once again, Erik Voorhees shows his business acumen by staying ahead of the curve.
hero member
Activity: 859
Merit: 1004
BTC OG and designer of the BitcoinMarket.com logo
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard.  

Unfortunate but true, many offshore banks, payment processors, e-currencies are now refusing to serve US customers.
It won't be long before US citizens are financially locked out of doing business with non US based financial companies.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1002
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard. 
I don't think it will go beyond S.Dice. If some site owners will refuse U.S. users, someone else will accept them from USA-unfriendly country like Russia or China.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
It will be fun to watch as Bitcoin businesses began scrambling to distance themselves from U.S. citizens. The current examples like SatoshiDice are only the beginning. I don't think it will be long before many businesses realize that it's just not worth it to pick on the biggest bully in the schoolyard. 
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
The US authorities seized the funds in Mutum Sigilum's Dwolla account because Mutum Sigilum was operating an unregistered money transmitter business.  The registration requirements seek to prevent money laundering, but there was no evdience (at least that I'm aware of) that Mutum Sigilum was actually laundering money.

Mutum Sigilum was allegedly operating an unregistered money transmitting business, but there isn't much evidence of that either.  The informant in the case only sent money back to himself.  And even if Mutum Sigillum was operating a money transmitting business, it isn't clear that they are subject to the reporting requirements of section 5313 (which triggers the registration requirement) because such reports would be filed by Veridian and Wells Fargo.

The legal issues in this case are a lot more complex than you imply.  If Mutum Sigillum was operating an unlicensed money transmitting business, then arguably Dwolla is too, since Dwolla is having Veridian transmit money for Dwolla's customers.  You might also want to read:

http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=9369


You are right to say that the legal issues here are complex.  

That said, I've read your point made before, and, respectfully, it ignores the legal standard for federal agency action.  The DOT and FinCEN are empowered to interpret and apply the laws enacted by the legislature.  The federal courts grant them tremendous deference in that respect.  An individual seeking to challenge that interpretation or application may do so, but when it comes down to courtroom brass-tacks, that person doesn't get to rely upon their hypertechnical, ivory-tower legal analysis of the meaning of the statute.  To successfully challenge an agency decision, for example, the challenger must demonstrate not that the regulation is "wrong", or that it does not technically fit into the powers granted to the agency; such a standard would be easy to meet in many cases. No, the challenger must demonstrate that the  agency decision was "arbitrary or capricious," or in some cases, the agency determination will be upheld if it is "rational and credible".  The standards here are a fuzzy and often overlapping, but they almost always favor the agency.

Thus, the DOT's interpretation of BSA are going to be granted quite a bit of deference.  This won't ultimately matter when it comes to Mutum Sigilum's defense, but it is what matters in the long haul, when the DOT finally gets around to promulgating BTC regulations.

So, were the federal agencies acting "correctly" in taking down Mutum Sigilum?  I'm not sure that it matters.  Will the charges stick? Well, it isn't even clear what the charges will be just yet.  I am sure of one thing, though: it's going to be fun to read the briefs!

Edit: ninja'd!
member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
The US authorities seized the funds in Mutum Sigilum's Dwolla account because Mutum Sigilum was operating an unregistered money transmitter business.  The registration requirements seek to prevent money laundering, but there was no evdience (at least that I'm aware of) that Mutum Sigilum was actually laundering money.

Mutum Sigilum was allegedly operating an unregistered money transmitting business, but there isn't much evidence of that either.  The informant in the case only sent money back to himself.  And even if Mutum Sigillum was operating a money transmitting business, it isn't clear that they are subject to the reporting requirements of section 5313 (which triggers the registration requirement) because such reports would be filed by Veridian and Wells Fargo.

The legal issues in this case are a lot more complex than you imply.  If Mutum Sigillum was operating an unlicensed money transmitting business, then arguably Dwolla is too, since Dwolla is having Veridian transmit money for Dwolla's customers.  You might also want to read:

http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=9369


It is not relevant whether mutum was laundering money. It only matters if mutum was engaged in money transmission (without a license). We already know mutum is not licensed, and neither is mutum's affiliate tibanne co. There is a weakness in the government's case here, though. It is not clear to me that mutum was engaged in money transmission. Tibanne probably is under federal guidelines, because it is an exchanger of virtual currency. Not so sure if mutum meets this standard at the federal level, and would have to look closely at MD state law to see if simply processing payments to/from Dwolla counts under state laws. Just a guess, but is it possible that the feds went after mutum b/c it is the account-holder and they wanted to be able to seize the account immediately? Seems like tibanne would have been the better target, except that it would've required that the gov't prove a couple extra steps between tibanne and mutum to go after any of the US accounts or assets.
sr. member
Activity: 746
Merit: 253
The US authorities seized the funds in Mutum Sigilum's Dwolla account because Mutum Sigilum was operating an unregistered money transmitter business.  The registration requirements seek to prevent money laundering, but there was no evdience (at least that I'm aware of) that Mutum Sigilum was actually laundering money.

Mutum Sigilum was allegedly operating an unregistered money transmitting business, but there isn't much evidence of that either.  The informant in the case only sent money back to himself.  And even if Mutum Sigillum was operating a money transmitting business, it isn't clear that they are subject to the reporting requirements of section 5313 (which triggers the registration requirement) because such reports would be filed by Veridian and Wells Fargo.

The legal issues in this case are a lot more complex than you imply.  If Mutum Sigillum was operating an unlicensed money transmitting business, then arguably Dwolla is too, since Dwolla is having Veridian transmit money for Dwolla's customers.  You might also want to read:

http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=9369
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Everything that's centralized could quite easily be shut down if the right people pull the plug. And besides Liberty Reserve doesn't have the power of the big banks, they're not too big to fail, and as such they're a fairly easy target.

You can be fairly sure that when kiddieporn and drugs are put forward as an excuse, it's not the real reason. How much kiddieporn is bought worldwide every day with the US dollar? Should we shut down the US dollar then ?

It doesn't help to shut down a service if it's used for illegal purposes. Crime online and offline is like water, it always finds a crack to slip through, and when it's sealed, it finds another crack or makes a news one. The US wants to protect their dollar, and as such it's quite convenient to charge operators of online curriences for all sorts of crimes like money laundering, drugs and all sorts of illegal things.

I wonder how many child molesters drive on the US highways every year. Should we not ban the usage of cars, and to be safe, should we not remove the roads alltogether? After all, having good roads helps the criminals to escape the scene of a crime quickly, so roads should be banned, right, right?

If the govt. want to shut you down, they will. If they can't find something you're in violation of, they just interpret the laws in such a way that you can be targeted anyway, and even if you win, you probably get bankrupt in the legal battle, unless you're a very big company that can afford costly lawyers.

The message they're sending is: Don't fuck with our dollar, we will shut you down!

Also, if they really wanted to reduce the usage of drugs and kiddieporn, they would start educating the population more, and looking for the root causes. People with a bad life and no future often resort to drugs. As for offenders that use children, most people despise that, including myself - it's the lowest of the lowest. But child molesters have all the basic needs that the rest of us have - they need to eat, to use the infrastructure, pay for stuff and of course - get their fix, kiddieporn.

If LR is shut down, this does not cure the few sick souls that create the kiddieporn market, it probably puts a dent in their quest for kiddieporn for a little while, but soon enough they will find new ways to get their fix. If the US Govt really wanted to get rid of kiddieporn and send a message, they would go after the producers of kiddieporn, and the buyers, and send home a strong message that you will never be safe if you decide to act on your urges. There could also be a program you could enroll in that could help would be offenders to control their urges so that they could learn to be good citicens.

The truth is however that for the US govt, human lives are not important - but money is. That's a lesson to take home - but it's the truth.

good post and great comment ..
legendary
Activity: 3052
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
The nature of a decentralized currency is that it cannot be shut down without shutting down the entire open internet. Exchanges and legal entities with significant presence may be shut down, but there will always be OTC trading.

Unless a bunch of lawyers are willing to research *exceptions/exemptions to the various **economic tyranny/protectionist laws and have retainer agreements that they will defend, pro-bono, non-business bitcoin traders maliciously prosecuted without regard to those*, OTC trading will be a black market where there are**.

The point of protectionism is to make the little guy (OTC traders) go bankrupt if we even try to seek legal counsel and/or comply with the laws.

Judging by your signature portfolio, you are not the little guy and can give slightly less of a fuck than us about prosecution, fines, and asset seizure destroying your life.
vip
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1042
👻
The nature of a decentralized currency is that it cannot be shut down without shutting down the entire open internet. Exchanges and legal entities with significant presence may be shut down, but there will always be OTC trading.
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