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Topic: Lightning Network vs Bitcoin cash - page 3. (Read 1436 times)

copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 31, 2017, 06:34:15 AM
#66
BCH: mining nodes = full nodes

So, in BCH:  Jihan = full nodes.  Got it.

If 'the world' is mining this is decentraliztion enough.

In what world are you living, that “‘the world’ is mining”?

Non - mining nodes are not needed for small hodlers.

It is self-evident, you have no idea how Bitcoin works.

Get it or stay on BTC.

There is only one Bitcoin; and yes, I will stay on that.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
December 31, 2017, 06:07:58 AM
#65
BCH: mining nodes = full nodes
If 'the world' is mining this is decentraliztion enough.
Non - mining nodes are not needed for small hodlers.

Get it or stay on BTC.
copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 31, 2017, 05:33:10 AM
#64
...
We already have studies that show at what rate nodes would get wiped out at current block size and in increases of 2MB up to 8MB. This study was developed by Bitfury:



So if BCash was getting used AND spammed as BTC does, blocks would get filled and 95% of current nodes would get wiped out of the system.

What does it mean "wiped out of the system?"

Is that computed as a side effect of the fact that people don't have, say for example, another 200 gb to dedicate to block chain for each year that passes?

Look at the numbers cellard posted!  Do you have a home PC with 32GB spare RAM to dedicate to a Bitcoin node?  Can your home connection pass 99.2GB of daily traffic?  That’s all with full 8MB blocks; and according to Bitfury, all that hardware buys you a whopping 28tps.  It’s still 2 orders of magnitude under the throughput of Paypal, and 3–4 orders of magnitude under that of Visa.

I don’t see any figures here on iops; but I can guess qualitatively.  Got RAIDed enterprise-class SSDs?

Disk space is the smallest problem with big blocks.  Nodes of modest means can prune.  But the above table shows that there would be nothing to prune:  They wouldn’t be able to keep up with the network, or even run without getting hit by the OOM-killer.

(For comparison, the Steem documentation specifies a minimum requirement of 32GB RAM for a Steem node.  Most users simply use steemit.com.  So decentralized.  But it has the magic word, “blockchain”.)
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
December 31, 2017, 05:19:36 AM
#63
Does anybody knows if there're short term plan by the official BTC developer team on how are they going to tackle the congested blockchain in the meantime?
Make segwit easier to use by implementing it in the core GUI. We haven't felt its effects very much yet because nobody actually uses it. Once that changes, then we'll start having 1.4 MB blocks.

That's exactly what 'big-blockers' were telling you from the very beginning. SW is too complicated, too slow in impl & deploy ( opt-in!) adoption and still is no sufficient scaling with that little capacy increase and we also pointed out that new 2nd layer tech is not ready, has no 8 year slow start working success story as on-chain has and is too risky to play with a fin tech application in the middle of a sigmoidal mass adoption process.

The ship has sailed now and we have two relevant bitcoin approaches and only one that runs as open (source, discussible, tech, ideas, economy ) as possible.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
December 31, 2017, 12:22:57 AM
#62
...
We already have studies that show at what rate nodes would get wiped out at current block size and in increases of 2MB up to 8MB. This study was developed by Bitfury:



So if BCash was getting used AND spammed as BTC does, blocks would get filled and 95% of current nodes would get wiped out of the system.

What does it mean "wiped out of the system?"

Is that computed as a side effect of the fact that people don't have, say for example, another 200 gb to dedicate to block chain for each year that passes?
sr. member
Activity: 631
Merit: 258
December 30, 2017, 10:47:28 PM
#61

Does anybody knows if there're short term plan by the official BTC developer team
I didn't know there was an "official" BTC developement team.  Huh

Who had the authority to appoint them.   Huh
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
December 29, 2017, 07:20:30 PM
#60
The Bitcoin will always stay top coin no matter what. BCH has no chance to over take it Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1053
Please do not PM me loan requests!
December 29, 2017, 06:53:54 PM
#59
Does anybody knows if there're short term plan by the official BTC developer team on how are they going to tackle the congested blockchain in the meantime?
Make segwit easier to use by implementing it in the core GUI. We haven't felt its effects very much yet because nobody actually uses it. Once that changes, then we'll start having 1.4 MB blocks.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
December 29, 2017, 01:21:21 PM
#58
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".

That's pretty well stated. However, Satoshi certainly did have a vision, and it was of people being freed from the chains of debt based fiat currency.

As for the details involved in navigating to that point, I don't really care if people "believe" one block size or another. It doesn't matter at all what they believe.

These are simple issues of mathematics and database theory. Any questions can be answered with eighth grade math.

I can't make it any clearer than that. No stopgate or temporary solution will work because of the huge variance between normal and surge conditions in the transaction flow.


We are only sitting in a time slice here and nobody can see what works in the future. The best way is to try.

Bitcoin started as an experiment and still is.

Now we have two mostly orthogonal versions and we should give both room to show what works. Try to fight one down is pretty inmature and shows only good trolling qualities.

In my vision it can only win that version having the most simplistic protocol layer and highest degrees of freedom to build on top = rapid adoption.
This is certainly true, however we can use eighth grade math to figure how transaction speed and volume scale with a simple change of block size.

Just pick a desirable range for future volume, and ask how do we get there. Let's take 100x current or 300 transactions per second.

It is not required to test solutions which will fail at 2x or 4x current volume.

We already have studies that show at what rate nodes would get wiped out at current block size and in increases of 2MB up to 8MB. This study was developed by Bitfury:



So if BCash was getting used AND spammed as BTC does, blocks would get filled and 95% of current nodes would get wiped out of the system.

Again, Bitcoin Cash is about scaling on the miner node network. Core claims that you would need lots of non mining nodes where Bitcoin Cash claims non mining nodes are slowing down the network and are not needed minimumfor a needed degree of decentralization. Here it starts to be seen orthogonal to each other. And I understand why many have issues to accept this. No math needed up to this point.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1252
December 29, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
#57
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".

That's pretty well stated. However, Satoshi certainly did have a vision, and it was of people being freed from the chains of debt based fiat currency.

As for the details involved in navigating to that point, I don't really care if people "believe" one block size or another. It doesn't matter at all what they believe.

These are simple issues of mathematics and database theory. Any questions can be answered with eighth grade math.

I can't make it any clearer than that. No stopgate or temporary solution will work because of the huge variance between normal and surge conditions in the transaction flow.


We are only sitting in a time slice here and nobody can see what works in the future. The best way is to try.

Bitcoin started as an experiment and still is.

Now we have two mostly orthogonal versions and we should give both room to show what works. Try to fight one down is pretty inmature and shows only good trolling qualities.

In my vision it can only win that version having the most simplistic protocol layer and highest degrees of freedom to build on top = rapid adoption.
This is certainly true, however we can use eighth grade math to figure how transaction speed and volume scale with a simple change of block size.

Just pick a desirable range for future volume, and ask how do we get there. Let's take 100x current or 300 transactions per second.

It is not required to test solutions which will fail at 2x or 4x current volume.

We already have studies that show at what rate nodes would get wiped out at current block size and in increases of 2MB up to 8MB. This study was developed by Bitfury:



So if BCash was getting used AND spammed as BTC does, blocks would get filled and 95% of current nodes would get wiped out of the system.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
December 29, 2017, 08:36:05 AM
#56
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".

That's pretty well stated. However, Satoshi certainly did have a vision, and it was of people being freed from the chains of debt based fiat currency.

As for the details involved in navigating to that point, I don't really care if people "believe" one block size or another. It doesn't matter at all what they believe.

These are simple issues of mathematics and database theory. Any questions can be answered with eighth grade math.

I can't make it any clearer than that. No stopgate or temporary solution will work because of the huge variance between normal and surge conditions in the transaction flow.


We are only sitting in a time slice here and nobody can see what works in the future. The best way is to try.

Bitcoin started as an experiment and still is.

Now we have two mostly orthogonal versions and we should give both room to show what works. Try to fight one down is pretty inmature and shows only good trolling qualities.

In my vision it can only win that version having the most simplistic protocol layer and highest degrees of freedom to build on top = rapid adoption.
This is certainly true, however we can use eighth grade math to figure how transaction speed and volume scale with a simple change of block size.

Just pick a desirable range for future volume, and ask how do we get there. Let's take 100x current or 300 transactions per second.

It is not required to test solutions which will fail at 2x or 4x current volume.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
December 29, 2017, 03:22:21 AM
#55
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".

That's pretty well stated. However, Satoshi certainly did have a vision, and it was of people being freed from the chains of debt based fiat currency.

As for the details involved in navigating to that point, I don't really care if people "believe" one block size or another. It doesn't matter at all what they believe.

These are simple issues of mathematics and database theory. Any questions can be answered with eighth grade math.

I can't make it any clearer than that. No stopgate or temporary solution will work because of the huge variance between normal and surge conditions in the transaction flow.





We are only sitting in a time slice here and nobody can see what works in the future. The best way is to try.

Bitcoin started as an experiment and still is.

Now we have two mostly orthogonal versions and we should give both room to show what works. Try to fight one down is pretty inmature and shows only good trolling qualities.

In my vision it can only win that version having the most simplistic protocol layer and highest degrees of freedom to build on top = rapid adoption.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
December 28, 2017, 03:26:53 PM
#54
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".

That's pretty well stated. However, Satoshi certainly did have a vision, and it was of people being freed from the chains of debt based fiat currency.

As for the details involved in navigating to that point, I don't really care if people "believe" one block size or another. It doesn't matter at all what they believe.

These are simple issues of mathematics and database theory. Any questions can be answered with eighth grade math.

I can't make it any clearer than that. No stopgate or temporary solution will work because of the huge variance between normal and surge conditions in the transaction flow.



legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1252
December 28, 2017, 01:53:57 PM
#53
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?

There is no way to reason with big blockers, they just don't care, they want transactions to be fast and cheap at all costs, or they will not admit that the nodes would end up centralized in the hands of corporations. They point at how satoshi wanted this... so what? satoshi got a lot of things wrong, hey may have downplayed the impact of datacenters running nodes or possibly he didn't predict things to end up like that. A lot of things have changed since 2009. Oh and satoshi was bright enough to predict how people would be against having big blocksizes. I can't bother to find the quote now, but he said that, so he definitely considered that scenario. Things weren't written in stone, he left and now everyone says this or that is satoshi's vision as long as it helps their agenda. There's no such thing as "satoshi's vision".
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
December 28, 2017, 01:42:36 PM
#52
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.....

Claiming?

What part of "increasing block size is not solution" do you not understand?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1252
December 28, 2017, 11:06:00 AM
#51
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.
Bitcoin was ment to be peer-to-peer money not gold 2.0 like they are claiming atm.
If those core devs didnt fk things up, ALOT of retailers would be using bitcoin already and there wouldnt be bitcoin cash.
And some legacy corp's would be losing a lot of money right now.
Personally i think some entities want to get their hands on bitcoin wheel before old banking system falls apart.
People who attack bitcoin cash or roger ver are just brainwashed, that guy been in this industry from beginning and problably has better knowledge of bitcoin and economy than all of us + some moneyhungry devs.
Bitcoin cash tx per sec isnt much of a thing right now because its couple months old and got no infrastructure but thats gonna change massively..

Bitcoin cannot be "peer to peer" if you have to go through a corporation that is hosting a massive chunk of the nodes, which could be compromised and therefore censoring transactions at will, and that is the future of any "as-big-as-needed" blocks approach. The blocks would be massive, and as a direct result, the network would be centralized.
I don't know why big blockers fail to realize this simple fact. They either don't care, or they are stupid.

Forget about Blockstream, it's a private business. Even if Blockstream didn't exist, the problem of "as-big-as-needed" blocks approach, would still be here. Roger Ver is on record claiming that the blocksize must be made higher as long as you get full blocks. Well, all an attacker next to do is to spam the network (just as they do with the Bitcoin network) then the blocks would be full, and then continue doing this as the blocksize is increased indefinitely. The result: only a handful of corporations control both the nodes and mining on Bitcoin. At that point, you might as well use Ripple.
newbie
Activity: 3
Merit: 0
December 28, 2017, 10:47:17 AM
#50
Funny thing is that Bitcoin was designed to work AND SCALE without 3rd party and now punch of devs,who are being funded by AXA(ceo is bilderberg chairman), claiming that increasing block size is not solution without even trying it.
Bitcoin was ment to be peer-to-peer money not gold 2.0 like they are claiming atm.
If those core devs didnt fk things up, ALOT of retailers would be using bitcoin already and there wouldnt be bitcoin cash.
And some legacy corp's would be losing a lot of money right now.
Personally i think some entities want to get their hands on bitcoin wheel before old banking system falls apart.
People who attack bitcoin cash or roger ver are just brainwashed, that guy been in this industry from beginning and problably has better knowledge of bitcoin and economy than all of us + some moneyhungry devs.
Bitcoin cash tx per sec isnt much of a thing right now because its couple months old and got no infrastructure but thats gonna change massively..
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 100
December 27, 2017, 12:48:53 PM
#49
Does anybody knows if there're short term plan by the official BTC developer team on how are they going to tackle the congested blockchain in the meantime? The 3rd and 4th gen currency coins are already by far ahead despite not being tested as much as Bitcoin.

Will they be making an exception to preharps decrease the mining difficulty to help ease slightly (not sure if it helps; just a random thought) or BTC is practically handicapped until LN comes out? LN will probably still take quite a (long) while..
member
Activity: 72
Merit: 10
December 26, 2017, 07:44:29 PM
#48
Kingaltcoins is bang on in my opinion. Block size increase is only a small temporary solution to a larger problem. It's not clear to me just how effective this lightning network will be, but I forsee a fall for Bcash, a rise is quality alcoins (that are better than btc), and a chance for btc to remain in the lead due to first movers advantage.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
December 26, 2017, 11:15:58 AM
#47
I looked at the code on github but about Tor and the anonymity of the system, this is a frank step, to which they must make a difficult decision. this covers the black part of the market and the technology that should make a breakthrough in the network should not be associated with this. although this is just my opinion, I do not know whether it coincides with the community


LN is using a version of Tor?
Is there somewhere I can read up on this?  And the rest of the stuff you mentioned?    thanks

The github is the least nuanced source, start with this:

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/04-onion-routing.md

Follow the links there to go through the other layers.
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