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Topic: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware - page 100. (Read 423279 times)

member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10


[Note: Some have suggested the total overhead paid to SB is only 5% after cancellation. The chips cost SB .078BTC each - he charged .086BTC, but is only refunding .081BTC. Sure looks like 15% to me.]



10% of 0.078  = 0.0078 <-- SB's markup.
0.078 + 0.0078 = 0.0858 <-- Cost per chip from SB rounded up to 0.086.

95% of 0.086 = 0.0817 <-- Refund from SB as stated in the email and on forums.

100% - 95% = 5% <-- BTC lost in the course of doing business. Seriously. This happens. Check the thread for evidence of work being done.


May I suggest https://www.khanacademy.org/ for your remedial maths
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
steamboat will give back 100% of what Bitsyncom refunds. In addition he will also refund a portion of the funds that was part of his 9.5% fee for organising this group buy. We all accepted this fee when we agreed to pay BTC0.086 per chip!!!

I am very happy with this outcome!!!

Quote
Pricing is BTC0.086/chip. This includes a 9.5% fee for batch pre-purchase, shipping from Avalon, and administrative costs.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192916.msg1999844;topicseen#msg1999844

Edit: Added a link to the original thread post
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Coffee is for closers.
Funny

Brokers only collect fees on transactions that are completed.
Good point, except that you canceling your order is the reason the transaction isn’t completing. And canceling your order wasn’t even an option when you made the investment.

When we made this investment we all agreed to:

When considering a purchase, it is the responsibility of the consumer to analyze all risk factors involved, including but not limited to: costs, projected ROI, vendor reputation, and possible delays caused by unforeseen circumstances.
And the Avalon website says:

"made to order from TSMC foundry, this also means no refunds”

So SB planned on there being no possibility of refunds and that planning enabled us to make this investment at all. Without it this thread wouldn’t exist. I’m guessing that like me, you chose this group because of the expedience which SB promised - a promise enabled by the assumption that he could pay to expedite.

Then Avalon changed the rules mid game to invalidate the assumptions SB relied on to enable the service you chose and SB is doing (what many here believe to be) the best he can to accommodate that change.

You already agreed to the 10%. If you don’t want to pay the extra 5%, don’t cancel your order. Your choice.

[Note: Some have suggested the total overhead paid to SB is only 5% after cancellation. The chips cost SB .078BTC each - he charged .086BTC, but is only refunding .081BTC. Sure looks like 15% to me.]

Refunds will be in the amount of 95% of the original .086 BTC purchase price, or .0817 BTC per chip.

Edit: Added some detail regarding refund percentage.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Totally not fair, in the first place you shouldn't mark up 10% and add another 5% if other group buy can give 100% refund. Next time you know who to sign up for group buy.

Are you serious? he is giving back 5% of what previously charged: (more than fair, and this is what SebastianJu did aswell)
on a btc value of 100btc he charged around 110btc earlier.
he will now refund 95% of 110btc which is 104.50btc.

How in the world do you get that to 10% and an extra 5%?

I seriously start to understand why we are suggested to ignore you.. Your anger is making you look a bit foolish. A simple calculator would solve you some anger if you know how to use one.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Torzsy, I think steamboat would prefer to not post the link - it invites spammers and scammers to request bogus refunds. Perhaps you can edit it out of your last post?

Yeah just have thought the same and removed. Thanks!

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Torzsy, I think steamboat would prefer to not post the link - it invites spammers and scammers to request bogus refunds. Perhaps you can edit it out of your last post?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250

I didn't get the email. Anyone else not on the list?

Go the mail from address [steambizzle at gmail dot com]

Seems suspicious to me. Steamboat always sent mails from [asicbuy at gmail dot com] before.




The following is an update on the order status of Avalon ASIC chips regarding an order you have placed.
A second update will follow.

Chip order status:

We have been in contact with Yifu over the past three days and are currently negotiating a compensation plan for damages incurred as a result of Bitsyncom’s failure to deliver. We cannot give any additional information at this time. While we are working to reach a fair and agreeable resolution for all parties involved, it is still unclear whether further action will be required, and we make no promises regarding the outcome. Yifu has informed us he will be releasing an update later today, but has not disclosed the topic.

We have confirmed with Yifu directly the eligibility of all batches ordered for refund to be processed when requested. Additionally, there is no deadline for requesting a refund. As such, we have begun processing all requests for refunds of orders placed with us, which will be submitted to Yifu upon each batch being requested in full.

The following procedure will be used to facilitate the refund requests:

Refunds will be in the amount of 95% of the original .086 BTC purchase price, or .0817 BTC per chip.

All those requesting a chip refund will be allowed to do so, so long as there are enough requests to fulfill an entire batch.

No customer will be forced to accept a refund in order to process a batch refund.

Each customer may choose to submit a refund request for a single order or all orders they have placed, but must refund each order in its entirety. Partial refunds for any order will not be accepted.

Refunds of batches will be requested from Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom beginning with Batch 6, and continue in reverse order to the first so long as refund requests equal an entire batch.

Customers in a batch which has been refunded will be placed in an earlier batch according to their position in that batch’s order, and their position relative to other batches. All purchases will be kept in their original order, and the order book truncated to reflect the refunded purchases.

Once a refund request has been placed with us, and the refund request submitted to Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom, it is final. There will be no option to receive the chips originally ordered for any reason once the process has begun.

Chip purchase refunds will be dispersed upon receipt of the refund from Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom. We will supply any administrative paperwork necessary and do what we can to facilitate the refund. We accept no responsibility for any delays outside of our control, which include delayed receipt of the refund from Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom, and will not disperse refunds prior to receipt of the funds from Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom.

To process your refund, please fill out the refund request form found at the bottom of this email in its entirety. Each refund request will be verified for its authenticity and processed. Any submissions failing verification will be sent an email for additional verification. Once we have reached 10,000 chips, the request will be submitted to Mr. Yifu Guo of Bitsyncom and processed.

The situation as it stands is far from optimal, and while we realize a 100% refund is desired by most of those who have purchased chips through us, we have invested considerable resources in order to facilitate our offer of Avalon ASIC chips to the community, and cannot offer a full refund. We have done everything in our power to educate potential customers of the risks involved when considering placing an order, and have stated explicitly we assume no responsibility for any issues that may arise due to circumstances outside our control; including but not limited to Avalon failing to ship, shipment being seized by customs, shipment arriving late, etc.

While we are not bound in any way to do so, we know it is unethical to retain the profits made from chip purchases, and have chosen to refund all profits which remain after administrative, logistical, and material expenses have been taken into consideration.


If you have trouble viewing or submitting this form, you can fill it out online:


Avalon ASIC chip Refund Form
Please use this form to submit your request for a chip refund. You may request a refund for one or all of your orders, however partial order requests will not be processed.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Sorry, but you don't get to keep the markup on a product that the sale wasn't completed.
Well there’s your problem right there - you’re thinking of this as a retail transaction. It isn’t. It never was. You were told repeatedly that it wasn’t. Think of SB as a broker - that’s much closer to the actual situation.

Brokers only collect fees on transactions that are completed according to the agreements 'brokered'.

Coffee is for closers.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
If someone works for months without income (no chips arrive) and the guy likes to be able to eat. Yeah, I am not complaining.

Everybody likes to eat. It's not my job to feed him. 6 batches at $100K~ multiplied by 5% is $30k, on top of all the money he took for assembly services he isn't performing, which he won't be returning. The dude's laughing all the way to the bank with our money. If you want to bend over and be his bitch, be my guest. All the other group buy leaders are refunding 100%.

Yifu is refunding 100%, even though he could just as easily make the same argument that he's put forth 'substantial efforts' FAR more so than Steamboat.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250

I didn't get the email. Anyone else not on the list?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Sorry, but you don't get to keep the markup on a product that the sale wasn't completed.
Well there’s your problem right there - you’re thinking of this as a retail transaction. It isn’t. It never was. You were told repeatedly that it wasn’t. Think of SB as a broker - that’s much closer to the actual situation.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Does anyone know if any of the batches was shipped? #1 or #2? I saw those were payed in May. I really dont know what to do. Ask a refund and lose the assembly price or wait.  Huh

Thanks!

[dont have time now to read the last 30 pages]

None of the batches have shipped yet.

Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1001
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Not sure where the additional 5% talk is coming from...it's quite clearly spelled out in the update. It reads like half of the 10% markup is being refunded, so does this still sound like a bad deal when he is trying to operate a business in the real world and has put in unknown quantities of time and money into arranging the hosting and assembly? None of us really have a good idea of the financials on this, there quite possibly are costs that cannot be recovered at this point. So steamboat and crew should all go to the poor house because you want to recover 100% of your Investment. For god's sake there were people a few pages back saying we should get an injunction on his funds because he hasn't posted in the thread for a few days. As well as the (baseless) attacks on his character and intentions, trolls were all up in here talking about how there was a deadline from Yifu for Wednesday, when this was not the case at all. I feel like he deserves the 5% just for putting up with you twats. /rant off

+1 dude  Wink  He worked his butt off to help us get this going & get us mining ASAP..............I'll stick it out Steamboat,hopefully Yifu will keep his "word"...................

If things go bad,I'll work with ya.I'm unemployed,but losing some of this investment won't break me  Wink

Thanks Steamboat,keep moving forward bro  Cool

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Does anyone know if any of the batches was shipped? #1 or #2? I saw those were payed in May. I really dont know what to do. Ask a refund and lose the assembly price or wait.  Huh

Thanks!

[dont have time now to read the last 30 pages]

None of the batches have shipped yet.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Does anyone know if any of the batches was shipped? #1 or #2? I saw those were payed in May. I really dont know what to do. Ask a refund and lose the assembly price or wait.  Huh

Thanks!

[dont have time now to read the last 30 pages]
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Sorry, but you don't get to keep the markup on a product that the sale wasn't completed. He doesn't get to arbitrarily assign a % he gets to keep just because the deal with the supplier went south. 100% refund, Steamboat, or I will dedicate a great deal of time, money, and energy to making sure your reputation follows you.

Anybody know a good lawyer?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
A couple thoughts:

1) Surely the number of refund requests will not exactly equal a multiple of 10K. What will happen to the remainder? Clearly, some refunds will not be processed.

2) I’m wondering how many later batch purchasers have not paid for assembly but would be willing to if given the opportunity to move to an earlier batch - especially if rumors of impending shipments of ASICs are true.

I believe steamboat will do the right thing, a fair thing, regarding refunds on assembly - his past performance has been a clear demonstration of this - even if some here are too impatient for his methodicalness.

However, if his situation does not allow him to come through (i.e. he has sunk funds into infrastructure that is not recoverable), could we not solve the situation in some cases ourselves? I’m suggesting purchasers of earlier batches not request ASIC refunds but sell their assembled K16s to later batches of chip only buyers who claim a refund on their chips in order to fund the purchase of assembled miners. I’m hoping that the silence from SB on this matter is him trying to organize a similar solution. If such a thing is possible it is a very complex problem that depends on how many of which type of order was received and in what order - and in the end, as with refunds, not everyone would get what they want.

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
I'm comfortable with the 5% for steamboat's effort in processing the group buy and now processing the refunds - hoping that it will be reflected in the quality and quantity of future communication on the status of refunds - how far we are in completing batches, when refunds are requested from Yifu and when these are fulfilled.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
[…] I would like to know why steamboat is unwilling to do a 100% refund.

An explanation was included in the last update, relevant excerpt below:

The situation as it stands is far from optimal, and while we realize a 100% refund is desired by most of those who have purchased chips through us, we have invested considerable resources in order to  facilitate our offer of Avalon ASIC chips to the community, and cannot offer a full refund. We have done everything in our power to educate potential customers of the risks involved when considering placing an order, and have stated explicitly we assume no responsibility for any issues that may arise due to circumstances outside our control; including but not limited to Avalon failing to ship, shipment being seized by customs, shipment arriving late, etc.

While we are not bound in any way to do so, we know it is unethical to retain the profits made from chip purchases, and have chosen to refund all profits which remain after administrative, logistical, and material expenses have been taken into consideration.
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10


Good point, didn't think about it in terms of getting 5% of the markup back.  As for the rest of your post, please don't associate me with being unreasonable/troll of others.  I have literally said zilch about any of this other than gather lists of people wanting a refund when steamboat was not talking.  But then again, didn't each other group buy organizer also refund their markup (not sure if they had a markup)?

I'm sorry that was probably a little heavy handed, the FUD/trolling is getting thick in here...
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