Topic: [List] Atomic swap tools and exchanges / DEX for Bitcoin (Read 567 times)

what can you say about https://chainflip.io/ ?
the service positions itself as DEX
with very good courses similar to CEX
There is very little information about this service on this forum.

Safest option with minimal fees is to Swap L-BTC into L-USDT using Aqua wallet, that is on Liquid network.

I don't think atomic swaps are usable now because of high fees on ethereum, and shitcoin tron doesn't even support atomic swaps.
eXch exchange has BTC to USDT option available, but this is not decentralized or atomic swap.
Komodo wallet (ex atomic dex) is another option, but I am not sure if there is enough liquidity there.

What is currently the safest way to swap BTC into USDT (erc20 or trc) with a minimum commission?

See honglu69's post above.

In other words:
"Traditional" atomic swaps make it completely impossible to steal funds, at least if you aren't able to 51% attack one of both blockchains. The reason ist that if the secret of the HTLC/PTLC is revealed, only then both parties can move the coins they have traded. If not, both can't. There's thus a "direct connection" between both transactions.

In Thorchain and other similar concepts there isn't such a direct connection. There are different classes of special nodes which are in charge of the exchange trades. These nodes get money if they carry out the trades orderly and if not, they are punished. This (the incentives) is what is ensured by the smart contracts, on ThorChain, not the cross-chain exchange itself.

I think the general safety of ThorChain can be compared with that of an algorithmic stablecoin (e.g. Dai). This means, that while the nodes carrying out the swaps in almost all cases will do well if they play fair, it isn't guaranteed that there's no strategy for them to profit stealing funds.

Basically, atomic swaps ensure the exchange with the consensus mechanisms of the participating blockchains. Thorchain ensures the exchange with its own consensus mechanism, which may be weaker than Bitcoin's and other big coins' consensus.

Why they are not completely trustless ?
They are DEX and use SmartContracts ( Open Source )

Unstoppableswap are way overpriced 5-6% fees and now capacity 0.12 BTC per atomic swap maximum.
Besides that they are only 3 providers of atomic swap inside, for Samourai i have great hopes because everyone will be able to broadcast an offer it will have so much offer that the % fee will get reduced by the internal competition of atomic swaps.

There is an other nice project that i am waiting to see released is: https://serai.exchange/
It will be similar as thorchain swaps but for XMR paired with BTC LTC ETH DAI

Indeed, if Thorchain is on the list then Chainflip should be there too, as they seem to use similar concepts (they are basically AMMs).

I've created a separate category for this kind of tools, because they're not completely trustless but incentive-based (see my discussion with honglu69 above), but I think they still belong here as there is no single point of failure. (The question however is if then also services like Bisq should be included - I would not like to "dilute" this thread's focus too much.)

Thanks, added it as a candidate. When it leaves beta it will be moved to the main list.

As I understood this tweet, it is already usable on mainnet, only the interface is still not very user-friendly.

PS: Added UnstoppableSwap too (Bitcoin <-> Monero swap platform/software).

There is a new atomicswap for BTC-XMR swap who is in beta test on Samourai wallet:
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/blob/master/docs/BUY_XMR.md

Does anyone know when it will be live Mainnet?

I think Chainflip should also be on your list.

"100% trustless " feature is interesting topic to discuss among all different type of dex swap.  

Atomic Swap type of swap is for sure different from Thorchain (RUNE) type of swap.  Thorchain DEX is a lot faster. It does rely on economic interest of liquidity node providers to ensure security.  Thorchain has close to 100 node,  weekly rotated (not randomly, but highest bidder in, lowest out).  These nodes owners have economic interest not to steal funds because it provide bonding funds larger than they hold on mutli-sig wallet keys. This is like ETH style of staking miners who do not have interest to attack network for 51% attack.  Correct: more like ETH POS stakers style of security where the staking bonds get slashed on wrong doing.  Same slashing on thorchain nodes on its bonds on wrong doing too. 

Thorchain seems to be doing fine. but certainly on decentralization or "100% trustless" is not same as atomic swap type of DEX.  In my opinion, 90+ nodes that have economic bonding interest not to steal funds, that should be qualified as "trustless" in DEX swap status.  The node counts could be more, but it is not that shabby as of today.

Thank you for your explanation. I have now read a bit about how Thorchain works. If I'm not wrong it's not 100% trustless but "trust-minimizing based on incentives", i.e. the "atomicity" of the swap is not ensured by an HTLC or similar contract but by incentives to the liquidity providers to play by the rules.

It all depends what your criteria are. I think Atomic swap is still more secure, but yes, the optionality (that one trading partner can withdraw in the middle of the trade) and the waiting times are definitely drawbacks. The advantage of Thorchain seems to be that you need only one BTC transaction per swap and that it thus is faster and cheaper on network fees.

Non-custodial is true, but 1-2 years ago I read about problems for some users which were related to their centralized management (I think I remember that they rejected connections from certain countries). Unfortunately I don't find the reports of this issue anymore (Edit: I think it was this problem related to Infura blockchain service. It's not really a Metamask issue, but anyway I consider it not really a decentralized app.)

Thank you, have added it.

I think thorchain is not like blocknet.   First,  blockDX of blocknet is atomic swap based DEX.  Blocknet service node is helping on swap, but it is still a pure atomic swap.
Blocknet service node charges a fee for its service, and serve also like electrum server on its light wallet called xlite.

Thorchain is not on atomic swap technology.  It is more like a decentralized multi-sig wallet, it is on better technology indeed.  For pure bitcoin swap trading on DEX, I think Thorchain is on another level of game and has huge liquidity on its pools like uniswap. Thorchain appears to be the winner here against atomic swap based tech.

I think atomic swap dex like AtomicDEX or BlockDX still has its niche, mainly on low gas fees smaller coins. But for main coins like BTC or ETH,  thorchain DEX is standing out to be the likely winner here.

Metamask is not custodial, you own the private keys, and you can choose the server/node that you prefer to connect to know the status of the network.
Many not-custodial Bitcoin wallets work the same way.

Shapeshift doesn't touth any transactions if you pass through Thorchain and metamask.

Anyway, this can be another interface for Thorchain, but as far I know it doesn't support the last feature of Thorchain "Streaming Swap", witch make the swaps very cheap, better then cex sometimes: https://github.com/thorchain/asgardex-electron

Also edge wallet now supports thorchain and streaming swap feature, but I think that they also had a fee for themself:
https://edge.app/

Thank you. I think it qualifies, and according to descriptions like this one it works a bit similar to Blocknet, with a cross-chain swap on a dedicated blockchain which uses the Cosmos/Tendermint PoS consensus. I've linked your short guide, but what I don't like that much is that you connect to centralized services like Shapeshift and Metamask. If you know a guide where it's explained how to use it without these platforms, it's welcome here

I'm not sure if I understand right but I think you mean there should be no difference in the OP between "DEXes" and "tools"?

In this case I disagree. For me, an atomic swap "tool" can be simply a software where you can create the HTLCs necessary for an atomic exchange, and maybe you can exchange the data with your trade partner on another platform (Bitcointalk or another forum, IRC, XMPP, Nostr, etc.). A "DEX" in general also cares about the communication part and typically has more functionality like order matching for which a separate P2P network may be necessary (or it's done on a centralized web server). It's thus a more complete tool. I think it makes sense to categorize them in different groups, but anyway my list has no strict categorization.

I've however added Blocknet to the main list, I think there's nothing really against it, even if I'm not 100% convinced of the "special blockchain" model.

(Edit: Ah, I think I know what you mean - my remark in the original OP that Blocknet isn't really a "Bitcoin tool". I think when I started the thread in 2019 I was a bit reacious first to add "specialized blockchains" due to this thread focusing on Bitcoin, and the danger that it could be moved into the altcoin forum where it would be much less visible. As I have now a good number of native Bitcoin tools listed I think this danger isn't present anymore.)

Thorchain is non-custodial and without kyc.

To get the best rate, you have to:
1) Install Metamask
2) Connect to https://app.shapeshift.com
3) Install the Multichain Snap into Metamask
4) "My Wallet" on Shapeshift -> Deposit Bitcoin
5) Trade/Bridge
6) Use "Thorchain - Streaming" offer
7) If you want, disable "ShapeShift Donation".

If you want to exctract the Bitcoin private key:
1) Download "bip39-standalone.html" from https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39/releases .
2) Put the Metamask passphrase on "BIP39 Mnemonic"
3) On "Derivation Path" select "BIP44".

Or
Import your Metamask passphrase into a BIP44/HDWallet compatible Bitcoin wallet.

Actually  Blocknet DX tech is sound, it is pure atomic swap as atomicdex is.  The downside is that indeed, blocknet  needs to run all the time (like electrum server) helping atomic swap.     Also traders like bitcoin has to run full node too, which is not as great as atomicdex.

Technically, I am not sure why atomic swap tools vs atomic swap dex.  The dex is tool already.  If  we just talk about dex, atomicdex and blockdx, and DCRDEX are three top atomic swap dex today.

As I've recently found the Swap python library which seems to be an interesting project, I take the opportunity to update and bump the thread.

SparkSwap and Swap.Online seem to be dead, and BarterDEX has been replaced completely be AtomicDEX already some years ago and now its main app was completely rebranded to Komodo Wallet. There seem to be alternative apps though. AtomicDEX has a separate thread started about a year ago, where also some alternative apps (FiroDEX, BitcoinZ-DEX) have been presented.

The Python library is extremely interesting for me because it could in the future allow me to test aliashrafs Atomic Options.

If somebody knows other newer projects, even if they're just command line applications, post them

I don't like Tether and I wouldn't use it for holding any funds because it can be frozen by central authority, and regulators are probably going to ban it sooner or later.
Liquality extension supports this atomic swap, but volume is low and you would probably pay extremly high fees for ethereum network transaction.
AtomicDex is offering atomic swaps but currently there is volume only for USDT on binance chain if you want to swap with BTC, but you need to have some BNB coin for this transaction.

I would say with AtomicDex it is possible via AtomicSwap to swap BTC and USDT

Any update on this topic?

And I have a more specific question: is there some real atomic swap software that can do atomic swap beetween BTC and USDT (and vice-versa)? Or is it technically infeasible because the two coins use differente algorithms? If if's not possible, is there some stablecoin that can be swapped with BTC ?