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Topic: Livecoin.net Scam - page 15. (Read 13625 times)

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1827
July 08, 2019, 02:42:09 PM
After reading through this thread and seeing livecoin admit to holding the users account "hostage" until he removes all the negative press against them, I've formed the opinion that all users should cease wearing the advertisement for them and the campaign should be closed.

This essentially is no different than the Betcoin issue. The monetary amount is different, but a scam is a scam. Everyone sure had an opinion on that issue and pressured users wearing the sig to remove the signature.

It's ridiculous for the exchange to have such shady ToS knowing full well most users probably do not read them anyways. Basically they have admitted to wrongdoing(even though in their minds they are right), they don't really care about the bitcointalk communities opinion or they wouldn't hold the OPs coins hostage until he removed comments.

Sometimes pressure from this community is what gets things done, and users have a right to voice their opinions or concerns.

Can someone link me to all flags against this exchange, i'll give some support. I would also like to ask community opinion on the campaign continuing?

The only flag that I am aware of is the OP. He gives the link in the first post. However, here is the link, again.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308
legendary
Activity: 3626
Merit: 4440
July 08, 2019, 02:21:47 PM
After reading through this thread and seeing livecoin admit to holding the users account "hostage" until he removes all the negative press against them, I've formed the opinion that all users should cease wearing the advertisement for them and the campaign should be closed.

This essentially is no different than the Betcoin issue. The monetary amount is different, but a scam is a scam. Everyone sure had an opinion on that issue and pressured users wearing the sig to remove the signature.

It's ridiculous for the exchange to have such shady ToS knowing full well most users probably do not read them anyways. Basically they have admitted to wrongdoing(even though in their minds they are right), they don't really care about the bitcointalk communities opinion or they wouldn't hold the OPs coins hostage until he removed comments.

Sometimes pressure from this community is what gets things done, and users have a right to voice their opinions or concerns.

Can someone link me to all flags against this exchange, i'll give some support. I would also like to ask community opinion on the campaign continuing?
copper member
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2298
July 08, 2019, 01:42:08 PM
They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now following from the reply they have given today. And to see things in the correct perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag. There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests (like, for example, using that exchange for trading)

The signature bearers are the only ones who might have some influence. Whether that would be enough to sway Livecoin or not - that's another discussion. I'd think that the amount they spend on advertising here is a good indication that they see value in it and perhaps wouldn't want to lose it over a ridiculous TOS clause

The tail wags the dog?

And what influence do we have exactly? Tomorrow (technically, Wednesday) is the payday which may well turn out to be the last day of the LiveCoin signature campaign. And if it does end tomorrow, it will be the impasse you are talking about. Ironically, to resolve the situation every party here (well, mostly) should be interested in the continuation of the campaign as all of us ("the signature bearers") are unanimous that the account should be unlocked, the user let in and then let out (more like kicked out, but you get the point)
The signature bearers are continuing to support LiveCoin via advertising their signature in exchange for payment.

Ideally, a reputable signature bearer would cease displaying their signature once they determine that LiveCoin has scammed at least one of their customers as is the case here.

I don’t think the signature campaign is going to end. Hhampuz needs the money too much to close the campaign down and LiveCoin wants the advertising. It appears there are enough people with positive reputation (on its face — this will likely change) who are willing to ignore the scam in return for the 0.02 they are receiving.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
July 08, 2019, 01:33:30 PM
They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now following from the reply they have given today. And to see things in the correct perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag. There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests (like, for example, using that exchange for trading)

The signature bearers are the only ones who might have some influence. Whether that would be enough to sway Livecoin or not - that's another discussion. I'd think that the amount they spend on advertising here is a good indication that they see value in it and perhaps wouldn't want to lose it over a ridiculous TOS clause

The tail wags the dog?

And what influence do we have exactly? Tomorrow (technically, Wednesday) is the payday which may well turn out to be the last day of the LiveCoin signature campaign. And if it does end tomorrow, it will be the impasse you are talking about. Ironically, to resolve the situation every party here (well, mostly) should be interested in the continuation of the campaign as all of us ("the signature bearers") are unanimous that the account should be unlocked, the user let in and then let out (more like kicked out, but you get the point)
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
July 08, 2019, 01:21:28 PM
They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now following from the reply they have given today. And to see things in the correct perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag. There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests (like, for example, using that exchange for trading)

The signature bearers are the only ones who might have some influence. Whether that would be enough to sway Livecoin or not - that's another discussion. I'd think that the amount they spend on advertising here is a good indication that they see value in it and perhaps wouldn't want to lose it over a ridiculous TOS clause.

The accusation is fully supported by Livecoin's own words so you can't really call it "unfounded". Perhaps you meant "insignificant" enough for you to keep carrying the signature. As for "vested interests" - I would refer you back to the aforementioned TOS... it's more of a hostage situation.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
July 08, 2019, 01:11:49 PM
I gotta take a break from Google Translate otherwise I'll have nightmares in Cyrillic tonight. I think this is at an impasse. Livecoin thinks they have enough support to ignore the flag and the remaining signature bearers won't budge either. Not sure what else can be said or done here

They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now given the reply they have posted today. And to see things in the proper perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag (truth be told, I do not, yet). There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests in this affair (like, for example, using that exchange themselves, or whatever)
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
July 08, 2019, 12:50:02 PM
I gotta take a break from Google Translate otherwise I'll have nightmares in Cyrillic tonight. I think this is at an impasse. Livecoin thinks they have enough support to ignore the flag and the remaining signature bearers won't budge either. Not sure what else can be said or done here.
copper member
Activity: 2184
Merit: 4241
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
July 08, 2019, 12:26:06 PM
libel and slander is violating terms of services and can lead to blocking of the account.

It's not libel or slander if it's true.  And even if it was libel or slander, one crime does not justify another.  It's illegal to block, temporarily suspend, or otherwise prevent the client's access to his assets unless you've been instructed to do so by a law enforcement agency, or he has used your platform to commit a crime.  Not only are you breaking the laws of almost every civilized country (and admitting it in your own ToS,) it's also unethical.


Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.

Really?  This is your plan to fix your broken image?


So, now that you've gotten the rant about the OP off of your chest, how about you explain why you allowed trading of a hacked fork on your system for THREE WEEKS after suspecting the breach within hours?  Please explain why you think the dev team is responsible for your actions.  Did you earn any commissions while trading the hacked fork?  Did you pocket the commission you earned by trading the hacked fork?

It's not the words of some random disgruntled client on the internet that's ruining your reputation, it's your own words and actions.
legendary
Activity: 2422
Merit: 1834
Crypto for the Crypto Throne!
July 08, 2019, 10:42:11 AM
Even after our support service suggested several solutions of the conflict

What kind of solutions you proposed to this user (izooomrud) BEFORE his negative feedbacks?
Please, voice all of them to us.

Our Support service suggested several solutions of the problem
Yep, again: What solutions do you proposed to him?

You clearly don't intend on taking the advice of any of the experienced members of the community here

I.e nerds, jacks of all trades, trolls.
I've corrected your post a little.

legendary
Activity: 3640
Merit: 4224
July 08, 2019, 10:41:10 AM
~snip~

Funny, I feel the same way about your opinion.

Don't feed the trolls and don't talk with stupid,is an free advice Smiley

De rustica progenie, semper villana fuit.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
July 08, 2019, 10:29:13 AM
Distraction Intensifies

If you were a legitimate exchange you would be spending this attention on you by explaining what happened and how you are going to address it, not by repeating yourself, pointing more fingers, and begging for people to say nice things about you. You are fighting a losing battle. Every move you make exposes your weakness more and more. You clearly don't intend on taking the advice of any of the experienced members of the community here, so enjoy the inevitable failure of your exchange as your reputation rots from the inside out.
copper member
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2298
July 08, 2019, 10:16:46 AM
You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we Smiley

I think that the flag holds some merit AND Quickseller is using the situation to exact his revenge.


I think Hhampuz should have done the right thing and close down the LiveCoin campaign. I get that the ~quarter BTC is a lot of money to earn from running it every month, but there is a good amount of evidence that LiveCoin is acting in a way that a reputable person should not want to be associated with -- preventing customers who publicly criticize the company from withdrawing their deposits -- and no amount of money should compromise his (or anyone who is participating in the campaign) ethics. If I were in his situation, I would most certainly be unhappy about having to give up that income, but I unequivocally would have done the right thing.   


But, you know, facts don’t really matter. Do they?

It is clear that your opinion can be bought for something less than 0.02 btc/week. As such, it is worthless.
CVD
jr. member
Activity: 48
Merit: 1
July 08, 2019, 10:12:56 AM
I am interested in something else, why these people have so much time for such things. I occasionally go to the topics, sometimes I can write something but rarely. I just have no time.
The market is now very active and with risk you can get a tangible profit. So, the question is - if black PR is not the main type of activity of these people, then when do they work?
legendary
Activity: 1253
Merit: 1203
July 08, 2019, 10:05:54 AM
Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.
You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we Smiley

I think that the flag holds some merit AND Quickseller is using the situation to exact his revenge.

And as stated by the criteria for opposing a flag: I believe that it is at least partially false, which is why I am in opposition to it. I can break down the ways in which it is "partially false" for you if you'd like, but I think everybody's said everything they have to say by this point.

I still hold out out hope that izooomrud and Livecoin can eventually reach some kind of resolution.

Dance monkey.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
July 08, 2019, 09:55:22 AM
You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we Smiley

I think that the flag holds some merit AND Quickseller is using the situation to exact his revenge.

And as stated by the criteria for opposing a flag: I believe that it is at least partially false, which is why I am in opposition to it. I can break down the ways in which it is "partially false" for you if you'd like, but I think everybody's said everything they have to say by this point.

I still hold out out hope that izooomrud and Livecoin can eventually reach some kind of resolution.
hero member
Activity: 1438
Merit: 574
Always ask questions. #StandWithHongKong
July 08, 2019, 09:51:16 AM
Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.

So instead of addressing the issue & making things right, you ask your users to spam, which is against forum rules BTW.

The last time I heard the phrase "Black PR attack" was from the Worldcore scammers, just before they went down. They were Russian too, coincidently.....
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
July 08, 2019, 08:24:32 AM
The only winner here is Quickseller. This is exactly what he hoped would happen. Is there any doubt that he wouldn't give two shits about OP's problem if he hadn't been kicked from the Livecoin campaign? He's had this long-running, stupid smear campaign against Hhampuz for quite some time now; I bet he's enjoying every minute of this.

You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we Smiley

Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.

LOL

As I warned Hhampuz, there is no indication Livecoin is interested in de-escalation. Enjoy the red label.
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 2442
July 08, 2019, 08:06:54 AM
Let's get to the point, you (livecoin) have his funds and refusing to unlock his account even though you don't have a valid reason. (at least that's how I see it)

Posting a giant wall of text won't change this fact.

The question here is: "WHY?"

Let's move from here.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1017
LiveCoin - is a modern stock exchange
July 08, 2019, 07:50:00 AM
It seems like everybody who wished to, has already expressed their opinion on the situation. We would like to put in our two cents, too, and to convey our thoughts on what’s happening.
Instead of trying to resolve the issue through our support service, this user began to blame the Exchange at different forums. He was well aware, that libel and slander is violating terms of services and can lead to blocking of the account.

Пpoшy пpoщeния, чтo пyбликyю нe co cвoeгo aккayнтa т.к пepeживaю зa coxpaннocть ocтaткa cвoиx cpeдcтв, знaя тo, кaк CП oтвeчaeт в тoпикax нe yдивлюcь eгo блoкиpoвкe.
“Sorry that I’m posting it from another account, because I am worried about the integrity of my remaining funds, knowing how the SS (Support service) responses in topics, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is blocked.”

Axaxaxa, зaблoкиpoвaли вce-тaки aккayнт тoлькo чтo, зa выccкaзaннoe мнeниe кaк cпaлилcя нe пoнятнo, кoнeчнo
“Aha-ha, they have blocked my account after all, – and only for voicing my opinion, how I got busted, is not clear, of course”

Even after our support service suggested several solutions of the conflict, namely – removal of slanderous posts, he kept lying further on:

It turned out that they had such a point of the rules

Quote
The Customer guarantees not to disclose any information, obtained from the Service support operator, in any channels of communication. Violation of this rule will lead to the account termination without refunding of the remaining balance of the account.
but before that there was no such point!

so they include another new paragraph of the rules

Quote
The Service reserves the right to change, add or remove parts of these Terms at any time at its sole discretion. The Customer commits to monitor all the amendments made to the present Customer Agreement. Continued use of the Website after the modifications are made would mean that the Customer accepts and agrees with the amendments. The Customer agrees, that all subsequent transactions will comply with these Terms. As long as the Customer agrees with the Terms and any such modifications, the Service grants her/him a personal and non-transferable limited right to log in and use the Website and the Platform

What's going on there?!

This  rule has been in the User agreement from the very beginning, and that user accepted it when he registered at our Exchange.

That’s what has been pointed out to him in the thread.

I just checked the 'wayback machine' website (to see if they actually added that paragraph in the 'Terms' recently) and it seems like that small paragraph has been there for quite a while: https://web.archive.org/web/20181004155211/https://www.livecoin.net/en/useragreement so, i'm not sure what you mean by "before".

As it turned out, Livecoin wasn’t the first Exchange he accused of scam, in his twitter he abused the other exchanges, too:
 
@Izooomrud
 22 Dec 2017
Replying to @hitbtc
Hitbtc = scum!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/944284509675155456

@Izooomrud
 7 Jan 2018
Replying to @YobitExchange
Yobit cкaм!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950110547080605696

@Izooomrud
 9 Jan 2018
@BithumbOfficial what a truble with withdrawals ETH?!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950684807905906691

@Izooomrud
 Jun 7
Replying to @hitbtc
you say the same thing, but continue to do nothing, even if you return my funds to me, I have already lost a lot in the fall of the course
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/1137061606020538374

In the beginning we were also inclined to think, that he is just a loser-trader, surrounded by “scam” exchanges only, but his unwillingness to solve the issue, his constant insults, slander – lead to different conclusions.

He himself is not denying that he post a fake information and doing a black PR:

лaднo пpeдпoлoжим, инфopмaция былa лживaя, кaкoй пyнкт пpaвил нa вaшeй биpжe мнe зaпpeщaeт лгaть нa нeё?!
“all right, let’s assume the information is false, but which clause of your Exchange rules says that it is prohibited to defame it?”

Due to difficulties with translation, and probably to stir up sympathy of the community, he posted incorrect translation of his correspondence with the Support service in an English-speaking thread of the forum. For example, the original screenshot shows a notification, that the account has been temporarily frozen (suspended), but he translated it as “blocked”.  There is a tremendous difference between TEMPORARILY suspended and BLOCKED, isn’t it, and we fully understand  the reaction of the community.

Because originally he posted at different forums under different nicknames, some restrictions have been actually imposed on his account, until all his multi-accounts were found out and investigation was made.

Our Support service suggested several solutions of the problem – but he deliberately headed for a conflict, it is obvious out of all his messages, that the funds' withdrawal is not of such an importance for him, the main thing is to black PR our Exchange as much as possible.
We always carry on negotiations with all the violators, as a result, we give an opportunity to withdraw the frozen funds, and only after that the account is completely shut-down.
Nevertheless, in this case, such a large-scale campaign has been launched against our Exchange because of such an insignificant amount of funds, that, apparently, the said user is not seeking to unblock his account, but he makes every effort to keep it blocked for as long as possible, and speculates on that, while continuing to black PR and affront. We are not sure why he is doing that, on his own or at somebody else’s order.

Concerning all the attacks on the User agreement. If you read a User agreement of any exchange, you will find a warning, that cryptocurrency is a high-risk asset, and before making any operations with it (for example buying of toxic assets), it is necessary to study all potential risk, exposures, etc. More to that, the major part of the trader’s job is about the risk analysis, and possible losses are put into the core of the strategy.

Every exchange has certain clauses in its User agreement, fighting libel and abuse against the exchange and its staff. Some exchanges block the account at once without investigation, some (like us) run a conversation and, before blocking the account, try to help to settle the situation, in order to provide an opportunity to withdraw the funds.

It is commonly known, that positive reviews on the internet are quite rare, if a person is satisfied with a service or product – he takes it for granted, and doesn’t visit a forum to give a positive opinion about that. Thant is why we are distressed by the position of some community members, which, even not being clients of our Exchange, instead of looking into the situation as a whole, when saw some false allegations about “groundless” shut-down of the account and “theft of funds” of this user, were ready to support him.

Livecoin has been a member of this forum for many years, we always send the beginners here for guidance, since we are sure that this is the right place where the people can find the information they need and ask questions they have. Yet it makes no sense to block users without any reason and to lock small amounts at their balances. Yes, there always might be some unsatisfied customers, who make mistakes through lack of experience, but instead of trying to analyze them and make conclusions, start blaming everyone else for their failures. Nevertheless, these are only a few, there any many more users successfully trading at our Exchange for years.

Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.


legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
July 08, 2019, 06:07:57 AM
Insolvency just means inability to pay their obligations.

Yes and conjecturing means making assumptions based on incomplete information. You are conjecturing that Livecoin is insolvent. That is simply your guess, wholly unsupported by any _actual_ evidence.

For an exchange Livecoin's size -- even if it's just limited to those two coins -- millions of dollars may be nothing to sneeze at. I don't want to speculate too much about that, but we should acknowledge that -- unlike many other exchanges in their position -- they made no move to make their customers whole. That's a red flag.

Livecoin only lost $90k to the Monacoin attack. If you add in XMR, the total is still less than $1.9 million.... Not exactly "millions of dollars." Semantics aside, sounds like Livecoin also is blaming Monero devs for a "double counting bug" that was a part of the Monero wallet software. From the Monero reddit:

The entire issue still revolves around 1 person's complaints against Livecoin. Insolvency would likely involve limiting withdrawals across several other coins than just the 2 they have issues with. You can bet far more than one customer would be complaining about it here. Who else commenting in this thread besides OP has been negatively affected by Livecoin?
So now you can steal money from 1 user, is that normal? And after he stops complaining, can you rob the next one? The main thing is not to rob both at the same time, you're just a genius!

Despite you being an uppity, nightmare-type customer, no, I don't think they should lock you out of your funds. But you have to understand they simply can't give you MONA to withdraw, because they don't have it. Sounds like you harped on them for months about this issue, refusing to understand you couldn't withdrawal the MONA - you never could at any point - until they finally became fed up with you.

Who else here feels "robbed" by Livecoin? Anyone? This is the point I've been trying to make all along -- this remains an isolated incident which has received far more attention than it should.
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