LMAO: Lagarde says Euro CBDC seeks to 'ensure high standars of privacy'.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: RealMalatesta on December 13, 2022, 12:56:31 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 13, 2022, 08:13:14 AM

CBDC is a private ledger wherein the government, or the Central Bank controls the whole system. You may be given some "privacy" from each other, but no privacy will be given to you from the point of view of the government. Although, CBDC "may" be useful for us Bitcoiners, merely to show how "good citizens" we are, and that we "prefer" CBDC over the "evil" Bitcoin. "Support" and use CBDC my fellow plebs. Cool

That is a fact, and they will have everything on that ledger and that is good enough reason to know that it won't be privacy filled. Their privacy understanding is between people, meaning what you spend your money on will not be known by your friends, and that is understandable, considering how many government programs have been hacked, including FBI as most famous because they have so many secrets and hacking into it means death of so many people, I do not trust that they would be able to keep it a secret between people neither.

However, assuming that they mean that, they do not mean it's a privacy thing between you and government though, that's open channel for sure.

Plus it's because it's the government's ledger, in which they can manually override transactions and program the ledger to not accept certain parameters, it's truly the opposite to the ETHOS of Bitcoin. It's a censorable, centralized, permissioned network for transactions. I said transactions, not money, because CBDC is not actual money.

We should continue to educate everyone on the differences. Both will be useful, but a person should always be HODLing some Bitcoin

RealMalatesta

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 13, 2022, 08:13:14 AM

CBDC is a private ledger wherein the government, or the Central Bank controls the whole system. You may be given some "privacy" from each other, but no privacy will be given to you from the point of view of the government. Although, CBDC "may" be useful for us Bitcoiners, merely to show how "good citizens" we are, and that we "prefer" CBDC over the "evil" Bitcoin. "Support" and use CBDC my fellow plebs. Cool

That is a fact, and they will have everything on that ledger and that is good enough reason to know that it won't be privacy filled. Their privacy understanding is between people, meaning what you spend your money on will not be known by your friends, and that is understandable, considering how many government programs have been hacked, including FBI as most famous because they have so many secrets and hacking into it means death of so many people, I do not trust that they would be able to keep it a secret between people neither.

However, assuming that they mean that, they do not mean it's a privacy thing between you and government though, that's open channel for sure.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Smartprofit on December 11, 2022, 03:09:50 PM

CBDC is essentially an integral element of a dark dystopia of the future (an integral part of a digital concentration camp).

It is impossible to talk about the privacy of Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDC). CBDC alienates citizens of all countries from their money.

CBDC privacy is the inability of citizens to control the country's financial system. At the same time, the government gets the opportunity to fully control all financial flows in the country.

Privacy is Monero (XMR), not CBDC...

CBDC is a private ledger wherein the government, or the Central Bank controls the whole system. You may be given some "privacy" from each other, but no privacy will be given to you from the point of view of the government. Although, CBDC "may" be useful for us Bitcoiners, merely to show how "good citizens" we are, and that we "prefer" CBDC over the "evil" Bitcoin. "Support" and use CBDC my fellow plebs. Cool

Smartprofit

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CBDC is essentially an integral element of a dark dystopia of the future (an integral part of a digital concentration camp).

It is impossible to talk about the privacy of Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDC). CBDC alienates citizens of all countries from their money.

CBDC privacy is the inability of citizens to control the country's financial system. At the same time, the government gets the opportunity to fully control all financial flows in the country.

Privacy is Monero (XMR), not CBDC...

bittraffic

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 07, 2022, 02:42:54 AM

Quote from: bittraffic on December 06, 2022, 09:18:56 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 06, 2022, 08:49:43 AM

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 05, 2022, 03:16:28 PM

The bad thing about this is that I am sure that the majority of the population will believe it. The digital euro, with which they are going to control all payments and be able to put an expiry date on it or block it if they feel like it, they have started to sell it as something that is convenient for the population, of course.

Digital euro: a common European project

On the subject of privacy, I'm laughing my head off:

Quote

The first one is privacy. In our public consultation, 43% of respondents ranked privacy as the most important aspect of the digital euro, well ahead of other features. So it is clear that if we want the digital euro to be attractive, it needs to be designed in a way that meets people's privacy expectations.

We seek to ensure high standards of privacy for digital euro users. But full anonymity – such as offered by cash – does not appear a viable option in my opinion. It would contravene other public policy objectives such as ensuring compliance with anti-money laundering rules and combating the financing of terrorism. And it would also make it virtually impossible to limit the use of the digital euro as a form of investment – for example via holding limits or tiered remuneration – for which identities of users need to be known.

We should at least provide a level of privacy equal to that of current electronic payment solutions.

So, no privacy.

NONE! How can you trust a centralized entity who says that they will give you your privacy. The cabal behind Central Banks WILL LIE to you, and make everyone believe that CBDC is good for society, and WILL LIE to you and convince everyone that Bitcoin censorship-resistance = "bad".

BUT CBDC should be encouraged by the community because it will make Bitcoin self-sovereignty and censorship-resistance more valuable.

The majority of the population doesn't really suspect what else is there when the government tries to experiment on them.

I believe many people/users of CBDC won't suspect anything during the first implementation. Everyone will be astonished in how "covenient", "fast", and "frictionless" CBDC usages are until one day the first iterations of censorship start to happen.

Will I be using CBDC? I will be using CBDC because everyone may never have a choice, BUT I will always have my Bitcoin if I need censorship-resistant, hard-money.

You will be forced to use CBDC since everyone will be using it and you may not be able to make transactions to buy something you need.

People are not aware in most cases. No one ever complains anymore because they are going to be poor by the time this war and the high gas price extends to another year. People are not aware they've experimented, we're all getting fooled by this climate change.

avikz

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Lagarde had used "privacy" as a double-meaning word. Digital money will give privacy from other users. This essentially means, the person you are transacting with, will not be able to view your balance or your transaction history.

But the government will have full access to your transaction history. So there will be no anonymity. That's the main reason digital money is being introduced. Governments will now start looking into your finances and your spending. There's no surprise, to be honest! Whatever little privacy was offered by cash, will be gone with the introduction of digital money. The majority of governments are now trying to introduce the same due to this benefit because now it will be easier to catch a tax thief.

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Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 05, 2022, 03:16:28 PM

On the subject of privacy, I'm laughing my head off:

Why? the privacy of the fund is very close and non-disclose to the client. They are true when they said that privacy is at a very high standard, and the client needs the power of the court in order to know his statement of account. That is how government CBDC is. Grin

They are very transparent to financial institutions but opaque to the owner,

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So, no privacy.

They want us to believe that with the digital Euro there will be privacy because they won't publish every transaction we make with our name and surname on a website accessible to everyone. And no, obviously they are not going to do that so that your neighbour or a thief knows what you spend your money on, but they are going to know 24/7 what you spend every penny on.

They won't publish it but they will leak it Cheesy

.

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Who are they kidding? I don't even know why I ask myself that question, because it's obvious: the majority of the population who will welcome it as something positive and a modernisation.

We all know financial institutions are liars. They always keep secret in order for us to not know that our money are being used by them to gain profit from the market.

Quote

What is the advantage in terms of convenience over paying by card? None. A lot to lose and nothing to gain.

At least we have another option... to be rekt Grin

.

On a serious note, financial institution has a different meaning of privacy when they say privacy, it is the censorship of leaking information on customer data and censorship of the information on how the financial institution uses the money deposited in the savings account of a client.

Lucius

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Quote from: lixer on December 10, 2022, 06:09:23 AM

~snip~
You shouldn't include El Salvador in your list because this was a crypto-friendly country and they even made btc as a legal tender. No need for them to create CBDC's as that only contradicts or can make a conflict with cryptos. No matter what other governments do, those who already use crypto won't change their views anymore. They know that CBDC's are not a crypto. It was the same to fiat but only in a digital form.

I look at it from a different perspective - because even though Bitcoin in El Salvador is regulated as legal tender and we can say that the ruling politicians are Bitcoin-friendly, can we also say the same about the people who live in that country? The vast majority just used the opportunity to get $30 through the Chivo wallet, and I think I read somewhere that maybe less than 20% of people living in that country use Bitcoin. Of course, this is not a tragedy or as some want to portray it as a failure of Bitcoin in that country, it will take time for people to get used to something new.

In addition, we know that El Salvador has been using the US dollar as its national currency for over 20 years, which means that they tend to experiment with such things - and I wouldn't be surprised if they create their own CBDC one day.

lixer

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Quote from: so98nn on December 08, 2022, 12:08:04 PM

So similar to what Nigeria is doing, similar to what china and India and El Salvador. Basically agenda of every country is same, to bring prominent digitalisation within the country. This is either with the intention of making country free from black money OR this could be superseded in the view of crypto usage. So they might be trying to divert the attention of peeps from crypto space and let them know government has got their back. While the idea might seem elegant in the view of authorities like CBDC and may be SEC, it’s dumb idea. There is still large population who still rely on the cash and carry business.

I think Nigeria, China and India are strict with crypto so definitely they will also release their own CBDC's and say some nice words with it for it to be accepted by the public easily but smart people knows that this wasn't true at all.

You shouldn't include El Salvador in your list because this was a crypto-friendly country and they even made btc as a legal tender. No need for them to create CBDC's as that only contradicts or can make a conflict with cryptos. No matter what other governments do, those who already use crypto won't change their views anymore. They know that CBDC's are not a crypto. It was the same to fiat but only in a digital form.

Don Pedro Dinero

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Quote from: Darker45 on December 08, 2022, 09:33:20 PM

First off, a currency that has an expiry date? This is something new and mind-boggling. I cannot access the article, but if this is true, I admit I was caught completely off guard. It never ever crossed my mind that money could expire.

It's not exactly like that, it could be. But you can also print an expiration date on a banknote or say that banknotes expire by serial number.

CBDCs being programmable have many more potential control properties, whether they get to implement those properties or not, such as expiration, we don't know but by default I don't trust.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on December 09, 2022, 01:31:50 AM

I wouldn't be laughing at all, as absurd as that statement reads, because the implications it has for this new monetary system are dire. Not joking or exaggerating at all here: this frightens me to no end. Eventually this brand of bullshit money is going to make its way to the US unless it's stopped in its tracks, right now. If I had any suggestions as to how to make that happen I'd gladly bring them forward....but I don't.

Does any of this frighten any of you?

Well, I was laughing because Lagarde had the nerve to talk about privacy. When compared to the use of cash or bitcoin, privacy in the use of CBDCs does not exist.

It doesn't scare me for the moment, as it has some possibly negative consequences, but this is going to be like the frog in the water that is slowly being warmed up. If there are catastrophic consequences, by the time people want to react it will probably be too late, and many will be delighted with CBDCs, just as they are delighted to be able to pay €0.70 with their mobile phone.

The Sceptical Chymist

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It's always coming down to that stupid fucking money laundering argument. And OP I agree with you that the public will probably just blindly go along with whatever these big wigs decide, with no opposition whatsoever.

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 05, 2022, 03:16:28 PM

On the subject of privacy, I'm laughing my head off:

I wouldn't be laughing at all, as absurd as that statement reads, because the implications it has for this new monetary system are dire. Not joking or exaggerating at all here: this frightens me to no end. Eventually this brand of bullshit money is going to make its way to the US unless it's stopped in its tracks, right now. If I had any suggestions as to how to make that happen I'd gladly bring them forward....but I don't.

Does any of this frighten any of you?

Darker45

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First off, a currency that has an expiry date? This is something new and mind-boggling. I cannot access the article, but if this is true, I admit I was caught completely off guard. It never ever crossed my mind that money could expire.

Anyway, as to privacy, there is no improvement actually. If at all, there is instead deterioration. I guess part of the reason why cash is to be replaced with its digital version is control and monitoring. That's for security's sake, of course. But it sacrifices privacy. But that's the goal; cash gives too much privacy.

stompix

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Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 08, 2022, 11:29:02 AM

From a serious poster like you, I would expect something more than a post from 4 and a half years ago, which I read at the time, because despite what they said, nothing has changed the trend that Sweden has, and its way to be the first country to completely abandon cash, whose use is practically non-existent in everyday life. If the central bank had wanted to, it had weapons to use.

A thing isn't wrong because it happened 4 years ago and not two weeks ago, it did happen the Central Bank is still against not eliminating cash and you can see that for yourself since it's still printing banknotes. As for the last remark, it's quite funny, the people don't want cash themselves but you would expect the central bank to go against their wishes and use their "weapons"? Well, what a surprise, it does:

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 08, 2022, 11:29:02 AM

When someone tells me one thing, and I see with my eyes that they do something else, I listen to my eyes, you know?

You realize from the above that I can say the same thing, right? Wink

LE, I don't know why my quote was not there

Quote from: bitmover on December 07, 2022, 11:06:59 AM

Quote from: stompix on December 06, 2022, 10:55:25 AM

And if your government is that powerful, what stops them from just getting the bank data, and then proceeding to fine, raid your house and jail you?

Exactly the things that doesn't look important. They don't have the data. What stops them to get the data are some laws which are going to become useless with a cdbc.
They need to get bank data through Court. It is a small protection , but it is a protection.

Laws that a totalitarian regime will don't give a damn to bend.
The small protection didn't help people in Hong Kong, for sure it ain't helping people in Russia and it didn't do wonders for the truck protesters last year either.
The problem is not the CDBC and it's not the laws, it's that you have a government that would abuse it, and if choose to abuse nothing will stop it, not a court in which it can jail and can replace all judges, not the law it can redefine, not banks that can be raided at ease. The only way out of this is to replace the abuser, the government, not to try and play an endless game of cat and mouse that will for sure end badly.

Gyfts

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Quote from: bitmover on December 05, 2022, 08:06:13 PM

But this is a completely different scenario.

Nowadays, central bank creates the money and we put that money in a private company, which the government cannot see what happens anymore unless court order (like you said).

With CBDC governments will have free access to our money and statements. Banks will have reduced usage and we will be easier to be spied by the government.

The remaining separation between private banks and central government is eroding. There isn't much left, if at all.

I figure most users of traditional banking systems understand their privacy is nonexistent. CBDC's just give the government more power to control fiscal policy within their borders. Not that it was too difficult before, but in if the currency supply could be modified simply by generating new digital tokens, or crediting people's digital accounts, seems to be a more efficient way than dealing with a balance sheet full of assets.

It's not as if this is a new concept, because most banking is digital already. Merely an attempt to completely wash the paper currency system and switch to something completely digitalized.

so98nn

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So similar to what Nigeria is doing, similar to what china and India and El Salvador. Basically agenda of every country is same, to bring prominent digitalisation within the country. This is either with the intention of making country free from black money OR this could be superseded in the view of crypto usage. So they might be trying to divert the attention of peeps from crypto space and let them know government has got their back. While the idea might seem elegant in the view of authorities like CBDC and may be SEC, it’s dumb idea. There is still large population who still rely on the cash and carry business.

Don Pedro Dinero

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Quote from: stompix on December 07, 2022, 11:04:39 AM

Why not look from this point of view to previous examples, let's take Sweden, where people are abandoning cahs and, what a surprise, the one raising the alarm is the central bank:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/03/sweden-cashless-future-sounds-alarm-bells-for-the-central-bank.html

From a serious poster like you, I would expect something more than a post from 4 and a half years ago, which I read at the time, because despite what they said, nothing has changed the trend that Sweden has, and its way to be the first country to completely abandon cash, whose use is practically non-existent in everyday life. If the central bank had wanted to, it had weapons to use.

When someone tells me one thing, and I see with my eyes that they do something else, I listen to my eyes, you know?

Quote from: el kaka22 on December 07, 2022, 04:08:03 PM

I feel like they will "say" that but they will do the opposite.

This.

Quote from: stompix on December 07, 2022, 11:04:39 AM

So, leaving aside your personal dislike of the leaders of the EU and of the ECB, how would you see a working CBDC that would be tailored to your needs for privacy?

Leaving aside my personal dislike of some of the policies of the leaders of the EU and the ECB, a working CBCD doesn't matter to me in the initial stages, but do you think that the plan is the coexistence of cash and CBDCs? I don't. I think the plan is to slowly but steadily substitute one by another.

el kaka22

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I feel like they will "say" that but they will do the opposite. There are not that many people in the world who has done something for the good of the people, for the people, and still not liked by the people at the same time.

There was a local ruler here, like head of a town, just 800 people lived, and that guy made anything above 2 stories illegal for buildings, no tall buildings, all same and when earthquake hit, everywhere around got devastated and destroyed and thousands died, and this town didn't even had a crack, didn't had even a single injured person let alone dead. He was ousted next term because people wanted tall buildings to make profit. So if you REALLY want privacy, elect people who would.

Lucius

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I'll just say that it's somewhat tragic that we've been discussing for years about something that's literally called "central bank digital currencies", as if someone's fate depends on it, even less something that's decentralized like Bitcoin. The EU and their digital currency is already in trouble even before it is created because it depends on the eurozone, and the euro is only as strong as its weakest link.

As for privacy and any transactions, even with Bitcoin, we should not be too fooled that this is possible nowadays, considering the technology that exists, which we are not even aware of because it is used in secret.

That old woman who is often quoted because she is the president of the ECB has very big problems with cryptocurrencies, although she does not understand them more than that they represent competition to the system she represents. If their answer to the challenges of the digital age is only that they will design a digital euro, then they are not thinking very constructively, although in a world where the majority behave like ordinary sheep, this is not something that should worry them too much.

bitmover

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Quote from: stompix on December 06, 2022, 10:55:25 AM

And if your government is that powerful, what stops them from just getting the bank data, and then proceeding to fine, raid your house and jail you?

Exactly the things that doesn't look important. They don't have the data. What stops them to get the data are some laws which are going to become useless with a cdbc.

They need to get bank data through Court. It is a small protection , but it is a protection.
We also may have multiple bank accounts. Spend in cash. And so one.

In a cdbc, they will have all our data in something very similar to an excel file.

They can just make a SELECT in a database and get everyone who is spending more than they expect, for example. No need to go to court in suspious cases anymore.

"Well, you spent 150.000 last year, but your irs anual report said you made only 130"

Cdbc is basically a Spyware.

stompix

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Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 07, 2022, 12:42:45 AM

You are confusing me with your fellow signature campaigners.

Nothing confusing here, we're not an entity or a group with the same opinions, we have a lot of different views on a hundred things. And the best example of all would be the fact that the last cheater who was caught with multiple accounts was exposed exactly because he didn't use a mixer to mix his coins and reused addresses. Again, ironic!

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 07, 2022, 12:42:45 AM

I don't advocate that. I am defending my right to go to the ATM and withdraw €1,000, and, yes, the bank will know that I have withdrawn €1,000, but then spend it without KYC on whatever I want.

And who is preventing this?
As I said, the irony of double standards, when China banned bitcoin mining everyone was screaming FUD, now an official says something about CBDC, and despite doubts about future plans, and total uncertainty even on the release of this coins we've reached fear level.
Why not look from this point of view to previous examples, let's take Sweden, where people are abandoning cahs and, what a surprise, the one raising the alarm is the central bank:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/03/sweden-cashless-future-sounds-alarm-bells-for-the-central-bank.html

So, leaving aside your personal dislike of the leaders of the EU and of the ECB, how would you see a working CBDC that would be tailored to your needs for privacy?

Topic: LMAO: Lagarde says Euro CBDC seeks to 'ensure high standars of privacy'. (Read 343 times)