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Topic: Look, you guys win. I admit I like Rand. (Read 5976 times)

legendary
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October 01, 2012, 10:51:40 PM
The observer effect is very clear, that a subjective consciousness alters the results of the experiment.
That interpretation was shown not to be true by experiments specifically designed to test this hypothesis. The "observer" is any part of the environment which interacts with the system in a thermodynamically-irreverable way.

http://www.danko-nikolic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Yu-and-Nikolic-Qm-and-consciousness-Annalen-Physik.pdf

Quote
Taken together, the existing experiments suggest clear conclusions regarding the predictionswe derived. All predictions have been falsified. The existence of interference patterns depends solely on whether the “which-path” information is in principle obtainable [11,20,33–35].Whether such information is registered in consciousness of a human observer, one can conclude, is irrelevant. Consequently, this conclusion leaves no other option but to reject the collapse-by-consciousness hypothesis.

Ok. I'm going to roll over on this as I'm not nearly qualified to wade through that study in detail.

I am curious however as they mention human consciousness being the variable - is that correct? It would be interesting to see where the line is between self aware human/ non self aware animal/ inanimate object/ measuring device.

In any case, I doubt this will be the end of the story.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 08:14:45 PM
The observer effect is very clear, that a subjective consciousness alters the results of the experiment.
That interpretation was shown not to be true by experiments specifically designed to test this hypothesis. The "observer" is any part of the environment which interacts with the system in a thermodynamically-irreverable way.

http://www.danko-nikolic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Yu-and-Nikolic-Qm-and-consciousness-Annalen-Physik.pdf

Quote
Taken together, the existing experiments suggest clear conclusions regarding the predictionswe derived. All predictions have been falsified. The existence of interference patterns depends solely on whether the “which-path” information is in principle obtainable [11,20,33–35].Whether such information is registered in consciousness of a human observer, one can conclude, is irrelevant. Consequently, this conclusion leaves no other option but to reject the collapse-by-consciousness hypothesis.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 07:58:42 PM

The double split experiment does not prove that reality is not objective. It proves subatomic particles behave in ways we don't fully understand.

I guess we are just going to go around in circles on this because I just don't think you understand what this experiment confirms. The observer effect is very clear, that a subjective consciousness alters the results of the experiment. We understand this perfectly well.
hero member
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October 01, 2012, 06:25:45 PM
Not knowing where something is does not make it unreal. You're the one claiming things are not real unless we observe them. I'm simply saying that quantum mechanics is not relevant to the notion of an objective reality, especially when we are speaking of dealing with people as they really are.

A better phrasing would have been irrelavent (not real) - and you confirmed it. How do you reconcile a split in the type of reality based on it's size?

Sorry, just like you don't get to define reality however you feel like, you don't get to define words however you like, either. Irrelevant doesn't mean "not real," it means "not relevant; not applicable or pertinent." Also, I do not have to reconcile a split in the type of reality based on the size of the object in question. Subatomic particles don't behave subjectively. They behave in ways we don't understand... but which 2-dimensional time explains, especially if the second dimension is tightly curled so that subatomic particles can travel in it, but larger ones don't move appreciably even if they do travel along that dimension.

The double split experiment does not prove that reality is not objective. It proves subatomic particles behave in ways we don't fully understand.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 06:00:17 PM
Not knowing where something is does not make it unreal. You're the one claiming things are not real unless we observe them. I'm simply saying that quantum mechanics is not relevant to the notion of an objective reality, especially when we are speaking of dealing with people as they really are.

A better phrasing would have been irrelavent (not real) - and you confirmed it. How do you reconcile a split in the type of reality based on it's size?

Well, it's not a study, but it is an alternate explanation for the double-slit experiment:

http://phys.org/news98468776.html
http://science.discovery.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/videos/does-time-exist.htm (the third clip is the one where it discusses this) A you may note, proving this theory will be difficult if not impossible. The same, of course, applies to your "reality is subjective" theory... which is why you've been unable to produce a study proving it.

Note also that the outcome is always the same...objective. The theories explaining that outcome, however, vary.
This should be a good jumping-off point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

I dont see where objective comes in anywhere - actually I believe I just posted a link to a study which proved that reality is not objective.

(also just for the record, you are now posting a link to a video, not a study... I will however indulge and watch it  Tongue )
hero member
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October 01, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Because the uncertainty ceases once you get above the subatomic level. My salt shaker (and all the salt, for that matter) is always in the same place, unless someone moves it. I can say with utmost certainty exactly where it is. When I open the cabinet door, the salt does not spring into existence exactly where I left it.

So by this logic, everything below the subatomic level is not real?
Not knowing where something is does not make it unreal. You're the one claiming things are not real unless we observe them. I'm simply saying that quantum mechanics is not relevant to the notion of an objective reality, especially when we are speaking of dealing with people as they really are.

If time is 2 dimensional, then the subatomic particle can be in a specific point (not a probabilistic wave) but because it is moving in that other dimension of time as well, and we only perceive one, what we see is an uncertain universe. In other words, if something seems random, it's probably just following rules more complex than you understand.

This is the part where I ask you to provide a study proving what you are referring to.

The double slit experiment is the single most widely reproduced experiment in physics (maybe in all of science) and the outcome is therefore established. Not once have I heard of the outcome you are referring to.
Well, it's not a study, but it is an alternate explanation for the double-slit experiment:

http://phys.org/news98468776.html
http://science.discovery.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/videos/does-time-exist.htm (the third clip is the one where it discusses this) A you may note, proving this theory will be difficult if not impossible. The same, of course, applies to your "reality is subjective" theory... which is why you've been unable to produce a study proving it.

Note also that the outcome is always the same...objective. The theories explaining that outcome, however, vary.
This should be a good jumping-off point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 03:17:01 PM
Because the uncertainty ceases once you get above the subatomic level. My salt shaker (and all the salt, for that matter) is always in the same place, unless someone moves it. I can say with utmost certainty exactly where it is. When I open the cabinet door, the salt does not spring into existence exactly where I left it.

So by this logic, everything below the subatomic level is not real?

If time is 2 dimensional, then the subatomic particle can be in a specific point (not a probabilistic wave) but because it is moving in that other dimension of time as well, and we only perceive one, what we see is an uncertain universe. In other words, if something seems random, it's probably just following rules more complex than you understand.

This is the part where I ask you to provide a study proving what you are referring to.

The double slit experiment is the single most widely reproduced experiment in physics (maybe in all of science) and the outcome is therefore established. Not once have I heard of the outcome you are referring to.
hero member
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October 01, 2012, 02:53:22 PM
Why isnt quantum mechanics relavent? Because it doesnt fit the newtonian worldview?
Because the uncertainty ceases once you get above the subatomic level. My salt shaker (and all the salt, for that matter) is always in the same place, unless someone moves it. I can say with utmost certainty exactly where it is. When I open the cabinet door, the salt does not spring into existence exactly where I left it.

What the hell does time have to do with anything?
If time is 2 dimensional, then the subatomic particle can be in a specific point (not a probabilistic wave) but because it is moving in that other dimension of time as well, and we only perceive one, what we see is an uncertain universe. In other words, if something seems random, it's probably just following rules more complex than you understand.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 01:37:50 PM
#99

Let me put it this way: If reality were truly subjective, the experimenter could choose which slit the particle went through. Or the experimenter could pick whether the cat has died or not when he opens the box. But he can't. The particle detectors discover which slit the photon went through. The experimenter discovers whether or not the radioactive material has decayed when he opens the box. In other words, yes, the tree does indeed make a sound. A falling tree will displace air whether or not there is someone there to register that against their eardrums.

Just because reality is subjective, does not mean that you have control over that reality... This experiment proves that whatever we perceive turns to "matter"... everything else is simply waves of possibility.

No, it proves that Light travels in a probabilistic wave, or that there is a second dimension of time. I say again: quantum mechanics is not relevant to this discussion.

It's not just light, its matter (they were firing electrons). Why isnt quantum mechanics relavent? Because it doesnt fit the newtonian worldview?

What the hell does time have to do with anything?
hero member
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October 01, 2012, 04:24:22 AM
#98

Let me put it this way: If reality were truly subjective, the experimenter could choose which slit the particle went through. Or the experimenter could pick whether the cat has died or not when he opens the box. But he can't. The particle detectors discover which slit the photon went through. The experimenter discovers whether or not the radioactive material has decayed when he opens the box. In other words, yes, the tree does indeed make a sound. A falling tree will displace air whether or not there is someone there to register that against their eardrums.

Just because reality is subjective, does not mean that you have control over that reality... This experiment proves that whatever we perceive turns to "matter"... everything else is simply waves of possibility.

No, it proves that Light travels in a probabilistic wave, or that there is a second dimension of time. I say again: quantum mechanics is not relevant to this discussion.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 04:16:33 AM
#97

Let me put it this way: If reality were truly subjective, the experimenter could choose which slit the particle went through. Or the experimenter could pick whether the cat has died or not when he opens the box. But he can't. The particle detectors discover which slit the photon went through. The experimenter discovers whether or not the radioactive material has decayed when he opens the box. In other words, yes, the tree does indeed make a sound. A falling tree will displace air whether or not there is someone there to register that against their eardrums.

Just because reality is subjective, does not mean that you have control over that reality... This experiment proves that whatever we perceive turns to "matter"... everything else is simply waves of possibility.
hero member
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October 01, 2012, 04:00:57 AM
#96
You wouldnt understand it anyway If you so want to find the studies yourself, then pay for them (yes you have to pay for access to journals) and get them yourself. The info is there. Do with it as you please.

I think you mean: "You wouldn't understand it anyway." When attempting to insult someone's intelligence, spelling, grammar, and yes, punctuation, count. So far you've directed me to watch a movie, and now a PBS show. The only studies presented (thanks, Vampire) have found no evidence to support your silly theory.

So, rather than pointing at the internet and saying "it's there, find it yourself," How about you direct me to the journal it's in? All I've ever asked for is a link to the study.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, its a fact that this shit is extremely difficult for our monkey brains to comprehend.

Here is a link to a lecture on the double slit study, which specifically says that there is no such thing as an objective reality:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec13.html
"This is an extreme break from the idea of an objective reality or one where the laws of Nature have a special, Platonic existence."

All the double-slit experiment proves is that light behaves weirdly, and that one can never be truly certain where a particular sub-atomic particle is at any one moment. It still doesn't have fuck-all to do with how you and I interact.

Let me put it this way: If reality were truly subjective, the experimenter could choose which slit the particle went through. Or the experimenter could pick whether the cat has died or not when he opens the box. But he can't. The particle detectors discover which slit the photon went through. The experimenter discovers whether or not the radioactive material has decayed when he opens the box. In other words, yes, the tree does indeed make a sound. A falling tree will displace air whether or not there is someone there to register that against their eardrums.
legendary
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October 01, 2012, 12:39:07 AM
#95
You wouldnt understand it anyway If you so want to find the studies yourself, then pay for them (yes you have to pay for access to journals) and get them yourself. The info is there. Do with it as you please.

I think you mean: "You wouldn't understand it anyway." When attempting to insult someone's intelligence, spelling, grammar, and yes, punctuation, count. So far you've directed me to watch a movie, and now a PBS show. The only studies presented (thanks, Vampire) have found no evidence to support your silly theory.

So, rather than pointing at the internet and saying "it's there, find it yourself," How about you direct me to the journal it's in? All I've ever asked for is a link to the study.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, its a fact that this shit is extremely difficult for our monkey brains to comprehend.

Here is a link to a lecture on the double slit study, which specifically says that there is no such thing as an objective reality:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec13.html
"This is an extreme break from the idea of an objective reality or one where the laws of Nature have a special, Platonic existence."
hero member
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September 22, 2012, 04:24:38 AM
#94
You wouldnt understand it anyway If you so want to find the studies yourself, then pay for them (yes you have to pay for access to journals) and get them yourself. The info is there. Do with it as you please.

I think you mean: "You wouldn't understand it anyway." When attempting to insult someone's intelligence, spelling, grammar, and yes, punctuation, count. So far you've directed me to watch a movie, and now a PBS show. The only studies presented (thanks, Vampire) have found no evidence to support your silly theory.

So, rather than pointing at the internet and saying "it's there, find it yourself," How about you direct me to the journal it's in? All I've ever asked for is a link to the study.
legendary
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September 22, 2012, 04:11:15 AM
#93
Show from Nova (PBS) on the holographic universe: http://video.pbs.org/video/2163057527/

...studies?
...tests?
...results?

No. Shows. Roll Eyes

You wouldnt understand it anyway If you so want to find the studies yourself, then pay for them (yes you have to pay for access to journals) and get them yourself. The info is there. Do with it as you please.
hero member
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September 22, 2012, 03:54:22 AM
#92
Show from Nova (PBS) on the holographic universe: http://video.pbs.org/video/2163057527/

...studies?
...tests?
...results?

No. Shows. Roll Eyes
legendary
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September 22, 2012, 02:30:22 AM
#91
Show from Nova (PBS) on the holographic universe: http://video.pbs.org/video/2163057527/
legendary
Activity: 1400
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September 21, 2012, 07:23:18 PM
#90
It's self-evident that reality is both subjective and objective simultaneously.  There is no explanation necessary, it's completely obvious (as in "duh").
You're clearly done a lot of studying and thinking about this topic and have a lot of knowledge to share with the rest of us.

Can you begin by explaining what you mean by "subjective" and "objective"?

I've been defining objective as anything which is true relative to a standard which is independent of any particular perception and subjective as the opposite of objective (i.e. an opinion).

Using theses definitions your statement is not at all self-evident but perhaps this is because I lack your wisdom. or because you mean something else by "subjective" and "objective". Would you please enlighten us?
legendary
Activity: 1834
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September 21, 2012, 07:11:54 PM
#89
It's self-evident that reality is both subjective and objective simultaneously.  There is no explanation necessary, it's completely obvious (as in "duh").

If you don't believe me, ask yourself a few questions.  How about this one to start:  Are you (subject) and the environment (object) real?  Yes?  You don't say...

Subjectivity and objectivity are not mutually exclusive (unless you evoke a limited scope).
hero member
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September 21, 2012, 04:29:45 PM
#88
Ok, so explain how memory works without holograms and I'll concede.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory
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