Lost bitcoins - a bigger flaw than originally thought?

Roger_Murdock

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Roger_Murdock on March 06, 2013, 01:23:42 PM

...
Yeah, but what if too many of the old threads get lost? (For that matter, are you sure you found them all?) That's why it's imperative that we create new "lost coins" threads every month in perpetuity. Ideally, it should be hardcoded into the forum software so that they're generated automatically.

But this wouldn't solve the cost overhead of keeping the old threads in memory. I propose a completely different solution: the forum software should automatically dig up and resurrect zombie "lost coin" threads to keep them fresh. Cheesy

You think memory is going to be the problem?! At the rate hardware is improving? Frankly, your proposal is absurd and tyrannical. How do you know that those "zombie" threads you are proposing to dig up are lost? Maybe they were abandoned for a reason. People should be free to make that choice. I suggest you go make an alt forum, because you don't have a frickin' clue what bitcointalk is all about. Oh, and guess who just got added to my ignore list?

nwbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 294

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Piper67 on March 06, 2013, 08:55:03 AM

Quote from: Gabi on March 06, 2013, 08:22:57 AM

4 pages, did someone proposed the idiocy "ehi, if a bitcoin is not used for 10 years, we should remove it and put it back to be mined"?

Of course they did... maybe we should start a new subforum, only for people who've been around since 2011 or so, and pay someone to edit out the chaff.

Using that logic, it might make more sense to expire the membership of anyone who has been on the forum before 2011 to prevent them feeling that they have entered groundhog day!

Wink

Roger_Murdock

sr. member

Activity: 343

Merit: 250

Quote from: SimonL on March 06, 2013, 09:07:41 AM

OP, please do a better job of looking in the forums for these asinine discussions.

On the up side I have one more to add to the list.

See you guys in two more months Wink

for future reference here are all the threads I've found to date that near constantly try to resurrect a non-problem. If you feel so passionate about it, please move it to the alt-currency section. It has no place here on Bitcoin Discussion. It already been "discussed".

Is this idea to counter lost bitcoins possible? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-this-idea-to-counter-lost-bitcoins-possible-131101
Can bitcoin die at some date because of stranded bitcoins? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/can-bitcoin-die-at-some-date-because-of-stranded-bitcoins-112525
A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-proposed-solution-to-adjust-for-lost-bitcoins-wallet-heartbeats-20799
Recycle lost coins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/recycle-lost-coins-44511
Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/deflation-and-bitcoin-the-last-word-on-this-forum-11627
Coins checking and snapshotting https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/coins-checking-and-snapshotting-473
Restoring Lost Bitcoins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/restoring-lost-bitcoins-48851
Deflation, Doomsday and the return of Lost Coins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.882591
Make Bitcoins "dissolve" after some time if not used? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.125407
PROPOSAL: Move all "lost bitcoins" threads to "Alternate cryptocurrencies" https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1404275

Yeah, but what if too many of the old threads get lost? (For that matter, are you sure you found them all?) That's why it's imperative that we create new "lost coins" threads every month in perpetuity. Ideally, it should be hardcoded into the forum software so that they're generated automatically.

SimonL

member

Activity: 113

Merit: 11

OP, please do a better job of looking in the forums for these asinine discussions.

On the up side I have one more to add to the list.

See you guys in two more months Wink

for future reference here are all the threads I've found to date that near constantly try to resurrect a non-problem. If you feel so passionate about it, please move it to the alt-currency section. It has no place here on Bitcoin Discussion. It already been "discussed".

Is this idea to counter lost bitcoins possible? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-this-idea-to-counter-lost-bitcoins-possible-131101
Can bitcoin die at some date because of stranded bitcoins? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/can-bitcoin-die-at-some-date-because-of-stranded-bitcoins-112525
A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-proposed-solution-to-adjust-for-lost-bitcoins-wallet-heartbeats-20799
Recycle lost coins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/recycle-lost-coins-44511
Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/deflation-and-bitcoin-the-last-word-on-this-forum-11627
Coins checking and snapshotting https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/coins-checking-and-snapshotting-473
Restoring Lost Bitcoins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/restoring-lost-bitcoins-48851
Deflation, Doomsday and the return of Lost Coins https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.882591
Make Bitcoins "dissolve" after some time if not used? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.125407
PROPOSAL: Move all "lost bitcoins" threads to "Alternate cryptocurrencies" https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1404275

Piper67

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Activity: 1106

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Gabi on March 06, 2013, 08:22:57 AM

4 pages, did someone proposed the idiocy "ehi, if a bitcoin is not used for 10 years, we should remove it and put it back to be mined"?

Of course they did... maybe we should start a new subforum, only for people who've been around since 2011 or so, and pay someone to edit out the chaff.

Gabi

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Activity: 1148

Merit: 1008

If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

4 pages, did someone proposed the idiocy "ehi, if a bitcoin is not used for 10 years, we should remove it and put it back to be mined"?

beeblebrox

member

Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: blablahblah on March 06, 2013, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 06, 2013, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 06, 2013, 05:39:13 AM

.......
What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

A constant coin creation rate can be expected to eventually reach an equilibrium of sorts with the rate of coin loss and thus a ready steady total amount of active (not-lost) coin. I'm guessing you've already had an inkling along these lines. (One can reasonably expect this to be the case as long as the mining rate wasn't ridiculously high causing hyperinflation and completely destroying bitcoin)

As for people getting angry for even mentioning, yep, I'd bet on it.

Lol. If it's so important to compensate for estimated coin loss, why don't you make an alt-chain that implements it your way? Even if your alt-coin struggles at first, people will eventually start to feel the pain from all that unwanted deflation and they will come flocking to your idea.

Oh, by the way, thanks for fullfilling my prediction. I should take up gambling for a living.

beeblebrox

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Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: blablahblah on March 06, 2013, 07:45:00 AM

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 06, 2013, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 06, 2013, 05:39:13 AM

.......
What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

A constant coin creation rate can be expected to eventually reach an equilibrium of sorts with the rate of coin loss and thus a ready steady total amount of active (not-lost) coin. I'm guessing you've already had an inkling along these lines. (One can reasonably expect this to be the case as long as the mining rate wasn't ridiculously high causing hyperinflation and completely destroying bitcoin)

As for people getting angry for even mentioning, yep, I'd bet on it.

Lol. If it's so important to compensate for estimated coin loss, why don't you make an alt-chain that implements it your way? Even if your alt-coin struggles at first, people will eventually start to feel the pain from all that unwanted deflation and they will come flocking to your idea.

Are you replying to me or to nwbitcoin. Cause if you're replying to me and have read this thread a bit then you should have realised that I DON'T consider coin loss a problem. I was just replying to a genuine question with an intelligent and to the point answer.

zebedee

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Activity: 668

Merit: 500

Quote from: DannyHamilton on March 06, 2013, 05:11:28 AM

Quote from: Mjbmonetarymetals on March 06, 2013, 04:51:55 AM

Could someone crunch the numbers Grin

how many satoshi's each would every person on earth be able to have?

If we assume that all lost coins are eventually somehow recovered, all future coins have been mined, the population doesn't increase above the current level, and all coins are shared equally, that is some pretty simple and straight forward math (if you don't like those assumptions, what numbers would you prefer?).

Total Bitcoins:20999999.97690000 = 2,099,999,997,690,000 Satoshis
Total current world population = 7,070,409,764

2,099,999,997,690,000 divided by 7,070,409,764 = 297,012 Satoshi per person.

I think 20999999.97690000 includes the generation 50 in block 0 that aren't spendable (and there isn't consensus on whether to make them so; do it I say) so actually it's 50 less. But I could be wrong.

blablahblah

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Activity: 775

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Quote from: beeblebrox on March 06, 2013, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 06, 2013, 05:39:13 AM

.......
What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

A constant coin creation rate can be expected to eventually reach an equilibrium of sorts with the rate of coin loss and thus a ready steady total amount of active (not-lost) coin. I'm guessing you've already had an inkling along these lines. (One can reasonably expect this to be the case as long as the mining rate wasn't ridiculously high causing hyperinflation and completely destroying bitcoin)

As for people getting angry for even mentioning, yep, I'd bet on it.

Lol. If it's so important to compensate for estimated coin loss, why don't you make an alt-chain that implements it your way? Even if your alt-coin struggles at first, people will eventually start to feel the pain from all that unwanted deflation and they will come flocking to your idea.

zebedee

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Activity: 668

Merit: 500

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 05, 2013, 07:46:26 AM

Ok, If you allow the miners to sweep up the untouched coins then the ones that remain untouched are most likely lost (yes, before you mention it: I know that a very small percent of the time it maybe that they're not lost its just that the owner can't make any transaction-- say if the owner is imprisoned or in a coma, etc-- but this would be rare. To them I'd say it's just tough luck)

Gee, how nice of you. I'm sure the dude's spouse and heirs would be thrilled at the double whammy.

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 05, 2013, 07:46:26 AM

Personally I'd suggest a schedule where you can leave them untouched for a year or two, but then after that the miners can periodically take a percentage of the original amount so that it takes say 5-10years before they disappear completely.

The reason why I feel miners should be allowed to collect dead coin is two fold:
1) I believe the transaction fee model is fundamentally flawed due to the fact that you can trade bitcoin off-chain. I've just been arguing this on a another thread-- no-one else seems to believe me though. (This flaw will take a few decades from now to reveal itself and I'll be a very old man by then so in reality I don't really care about it.)

Even if you believe this (and I don't) then if you have a lot of "stash" and you're worried about network security - the obvious non-violent non-coercive non-stealing solution is to spend a bit of coin in a transaction to help fund miners. Every day if need be.

And if you're not worried, then why should you pay for security you don't need?

You're imagining an issue where there isn't one. This kind of answers your point below too.

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 05, 2013, 07:46:26 AM

2) The second reason is an argument from a sense of equity. It's to do with the question of who should pay to maintain network security. Take me for example, almost 2yrs ago now I bought approx. 2500 coin as an investment and have left it sit on the network accumulating dust. I've never made any transactions since so haven't paid any fees to the miners-- however it is the miners that are protecting my coin. Isn't it fairer if I was forced to contribute a bit to the cost of protecting my investment? If miner's were allowed to collect dead coin then I'd be forced either to pay the miners by the fee incurred in making a transaction from one of my addresses to to another in order to revive my coin, or pay them direct by dead-coin loss.

If you don't contribute to your own coin protection and lose it owing to lack of network security, who do you have to blame? No-one but yourself.

There is no problem to see here.

zebedee

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Activity: 668

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes, we are all doomed. Stick with fiat so you are safe.

Lol

Mjbmonetarymetals

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Thanks for the calc. Grin

At 297,012 Satoshi per person - what could I buy with 1 satoshi ?

beeblebrox

member

Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: beeblebrox on March 06, 2013, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 06, 2013, 05:39:13 AM

.......
What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

A constant coin creation rate can be expected to eventually reach an equilibrium of sorts with the rate of coin loss and thus a ready steady total amount of active (not-lost) coin. I'm guessing you've already had an inkling along these lines. (One can reasonably expect this to be the case as long as the mining rate wasn't ridiculously high causing hyperinflation and completely destroying bitcoin)

This is assuming that bitcoin has reached saturation peneration of the population and that the popularity of bitcoin remains constant. Also other factors such as population growth would effect it, but that's on larger time scales (years->decade) so quater to quater it would be quite steady.

beeblebrox

member

Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 06, 2013, 05:39:13 AM

.......
What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

A constant coin creation rate can be expected to eventually reach an equilibrium of sorts with the rate of coin loss and thus a ready steady total amount of active (not-lost) coin. I'm guessing you've already had an inkling along these lines. (One can reasonably expect this to be the case as long as the mining rate wasn't ridiculously high causing hyperinflation and completely destroying bitcoin)

As for people getting angry for even mentioning, yep, I'd bet on it.

nwbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: DannyHamilton on March 06, 2013, 05:11:28 AM

Quote from: Mjbmonetarymetals on March 06, 2013, 04:51:55 AM

Could someone crunch the numbers Grin

how many satoshi's each would every person on earth be able to have?

If we assume that all lost coins are eventually somehow recovered, all future coins have been mined, the population doesn't increase above the current level, and all coins are shared equally, that is some pretty simple and straight forward math (if you don't like those assumptions, what numbers would you prefer?).

Total Bitcoins:20999999.97690000 = 2,099,999,997,690,000 Satoshis
Total current world population = 7,070,409,764

2,099,999,997,690,000 divided by 7,070,409,764 = 297,012 Satoshi per person.

Nice figures, but it does highlight that many of the claims that keep the bitcoin potential alive are just theory.

For instance, I have about 4 wallets all ready to store my bitcoins in, but two of them have less than .05 btc in them. I might forget the details of the wallet within the next few years, and not feel too guilty about it, because currently, its not worth more to me than the coins down the back of the sofa.

Most of the people on this forum are the sort of people who don't do things like that, and don't understand why someone would do something so irrational. However, the majority of people are very irrational and this is why I brought up the question in the first place.

What would happen if there wasn't a limit on the number of coins created?

My gut feeling is that anyone reading this with more than a handful of bitcoins is going to get very angry as they see their potential pension pot disappear in a cloud of zeros and ones! Wink

Any feedback?

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 4801

Quote from: Mjbmonetarymetals on March 06, 2013, 04:51:55 AM

Could someone crunch the numbers Grin

how many satoshi's each would every person on earth be able to have?

If we assume that all lost coins are eventually somehow recovered, all future coins have been mined, the population doesn't increase above the current level, and all coins are shared equally, that is some pretty simple and straight forward math (if you don't like those assumptions, what numbers would you prefer?).

Total Bitcoins:20999999.97690000 = 2,099,999,997,690,000 Satoshis
Total current world population = 7,070,409,764

2,099,999,997,690,000 divided by 7,070,409,764 = 297,012 Satoshi per person.

greyhawk

hero member

Activity: 952

Merit: 1009

Quote from: Mjbmonetarymetals on March 06, 2013, 04:51:55 AM

Could someone crunch the numbers Grin

how many satoshi's each would every person on earth be able to have?

Before or after the war?

Mjbmonetarymetals

legendary

Activity: 1096

Merit: 1067

Could someone crunch the numbers Grin

how many satoshi's each would every person on earth be able to have?

nwbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Just a quick question of forum etiquette - if someone is writing total nonsense, is the tradition to let them get on with it, or do you point it out?

Wink

Topic: Lost bitcoins - a bigger flaw than originally thought? (Read 5857 times)