KEVIN WE HAD A GOOD THING GOING AND YOU THREW IT ALL AWAY
Topic: Making it public: I have moved the disputed 643.2771 BTC into an escrow account - page 3. (Read 17071 times)
June 21, 2011, 09:01:16 PM
Kevin deserves what he gets for ruining a perfectly good PFMS community
KEVIN WE HAD A GOOD THING GOING AND YOU THREW IT ALL AWAY
KEVIN WE HAD A GOOD THING GOING AND YOU THREW IT ALL AWAY
June 21, 2011, 08:54:48 PM
To be honest I kinda wish Kevin got away with all the coins.
For one thing, it would force Mt. Gox out of business when they had to compensate those who lost coins in the hack which I think most of us can agree is a good thing. Now that Bitcoins are actually worth a good chunk of change, it's preposterous to have the leading exchange be run by an idiot and a liar like MagicalTux.
For another, a very lucky innocent person would have received the windfall instead of a malicious hacker.
It would be a massive win/win.
Kevin: I stand to gain absolutely nothing, but I think you should get your $5m. The only person who should be punished is the person who allowed all this to happen: MagicalTux.
For one thing, it would force Mt. Gox out of business when they had to compensate those who lost coins in the hack which I think most of us can agree is a good thing. Now that Bitcoins are actually worth a good chunk of change, it's preposterous to have the leading exchange be run by an idiot and a liar like MagicalTux.
For another, a very lucky innocent person would have received the windfall instead of a malicious hacker.
It would be a massive win/win.
Kevin: I stand to gain absolutely nothing, but I think you should get your $5m. The only person who should be punished is the person who allowed all this to happen: MagicalTux.
June 21, 2011, 08:54:14 PM
This is why gov't exist. Because people are dishonorable dicks. There doesn't need to be a law. Kevin knowingly profitted from an illegal act and has CONFESSED to suspecting the market's performance was a result of an illegal act AT THE TIME HE PUT IN HIS BUY ORDER.
Feeling guilty about something is not mean that a crime is committed, there has to be a crime. Here there is one clear act of hacking, but we cannot establish theft yet until we determine that BTCs are even subject of theft.
You don't need a law to know buying what is in essence someone else property is wrong. Bitcoins are a right to a service (a nonreversible multipeer authenticated data transfer and record keeping). They don't need to be tangible.
Ahh, you are talking about ethical conduct. Sure, Kevin keeping the BTCs would be ethically wrong, but is it illegal? You do need a law for determining that.
Bitcoin cannot have its pie and eat it too. It wants to be a decentralised system operating outside of the law and of government's jurisdiction. To do that, its legal status has to remain clouded, otherwise you would have regulators intervening. Unless that happens, law enforcement officials will laugh and treat this as the theft of gold in WoW.
June 21, 2011, 08:51:24 PM
Sounds like Kevin wasn't the only one who got a buy order in fast.
Hehe. I am serious though. Theft has very specific connotations (warning, this discussion is about UK law, but this is typical of most systems I am familiar with). Most intangible theft, that is, money transfers, securities, etc. are classified as fraud, and that would depend on BTCs having some form of legal value. At the moment, BTCs are at best in a legal grey area. I cannot imagine that any enforcement agency would take theft (or fraud) in BTCs seriously (yet).
Hacking however is a well recognised offence, so the hacker is certainly liable regardless of Bitcoin's legal status. But Kevin would not be liable for making an exchange.
your out of your mind. There is no gray legal area.Theft of service goes way back in law. We are all trading a right to a service. It's not frickin complicated.
June 21, 2011, 08:46:35 PM
Sounds like Kevin wasn't the only one who got a buy order in fast.
Hehe. I am serious though. Theft has very specific connotations (warning, this discussion is about UK law, but this is typical of most systems I am familiar with). Most intangible theft, that is, money transfers, securities, etc. are classified as fraud, and that would depend on BTCs having some form of legal value. At the moment, BTCs are at best in a legal grey area. I cannot imagine that any enforcement agency would take theft (or fraud) in BTCs seriously (yet).
Hacking however is a well recognised offence, so the hacker is certainly liable regardless of Bitcoin's legal status. But Kevin would not be liable for making an exchange.
June 21, 2011, 08:44:37 PM
In my opinion, this whole debate has been nothing more than a publicity stunt by Kevin who is desperately trying to paint himself as a "good guy" in hopes that he wins over the hearts of the community so they rally behind him and persuade Mt. Gox to ultimately end up letting him keep all 200,000+ bitcoins.
The 643 BTC is just a distraction. The real thing Kevin is fighting to keep (without actually coming outright and saying it) is the motherload.
I'm sorry, but Kevin just needs to accept the fact that all those bitcoins were stolen and they need to be returned to their rightful owner(s), regardless of who that owner is. That's the right thing to do, and ultimately, the decision isn't even his (since the BTC are still all in the hands of Mt. Gox).
The 643 BTC is just a distraction. The real thing Kevin is fighting to keep (without actually coming outright and saying it) is the motherload.
I'm sorry, but Kevin just needs to accept the fact that all those bitcoins were stolen and they need to be returned to their rightful owner(s), regardless of who that owner is. That's the right thing to do, and ultimately, the decision isn't even his (since the BTC are still all in the hands of Mt. Gox).
June 21, 2011, 08:40:43 PM
This is why gov't exist. Because people are dishonorable dicks. There doesn't need to be a law. Kevin knowingly profitted from an illegal act and has CONFESSED to suspecting the market's performance was a result of an illegal act AT THE TIME HE PUT IN HIS BUY ORDER.
There is your mens rea people.
You don't need a law to know buying what is in essence someone else property is wrong. Bitcoins are a right to a service (a nonreversible multipeer authenticated data transfer and record keeping). They don't need to be tangible.
Kevin knows in his heart that's why he keeps trying to rationalize this.
There is your mens rea people.
You don't need a law to know buying what is in essence someone else property is wrong. Bitcoins are a right to a service (a nonreversible multipeer authenticated data transfer and record keeping). They don't need to be tangible.
Kevin knows in his heart that's why he keeps trying to rationalize this.
June 21, 2011, 08:29:37 PM
That only applies to tangible goods. BTCs are an unregulated market in virtual currency, so theft laws do not apply. There was no theft, there was hacking, and Kevin was not the perpetrator.
Sounds like Kevin wasn't the only one who got a buy order in fast.
June 21, 2011, 08:27:21 PM
I'm not totally sure I know all the details in this case, but according to Swedish law (IIRC) buying something in good faith doesn't give you possession of what you bought, in case it was previously stolen.
For example, if someone comes to you and offers to sell you diamonds at a discounted price, and you buy, that doesn't mean you can keep them if it turns out they were stolen in the first place.
For example, if someone comes to you and offers to sell you diamonds at a discounted price, and you buy, that doesn't mean you can keep them if it turns out they were stolen in the first place.
That only applies to tangible goods. BTCs are an unregulated market in virtual currency, so theft laws do not apply. There was no theft, there was hacking, and Kevin was not the perpetrator.
June 21, 2011, 08:24:21 PM
Well, I don't know other country's laws that well, but here in germany the transactions would be invalid.
MtGox would have no choice and has to do a rollback.
MtGox would have no choice and has to do a rollback.
Really? Can you be more specific as to what law applies in this case?
June 21, 2011, 08:22:36 PM
2) The FBI accepts "Kevin logged in within 15 minutes of the attacker" as enough evidence to arrest me and seize my wallet as evidence and/or I end up convicted and the FBI buys some new socks and night lights for the whole office with the balance.
Why in the seven blazes would the FBI be after you?
Serious question, what do you think they could possibly charge you with?
This is of course, assuming you are not the hacker, but if you were, you would not be here.
June 21, 2011, 08:04:01 PM
An exchange cant revert hours of trades back just because one account got hacked.
Why do you speak lies? Ever heard of the flash crash? Trades are backed out all the time on global exchanges. You are ignorant and uneducated.
June 21, 2011, 07:39:44 PM
My loyalty is for sale. 
1CRcJUNAPvHYd888jLiwRZacwSQDNSFPfh
1CRcJUNAPvHYd888jLiwRZacwSQDNSFPfh
June 21, 2011, 07:32:06 PM
Why drag out this situation? Basically, your only making $3000 off of keeping the stolen coins. Doesn't make sense to ruin your reputation over such an insignificant amount that you put 0 work into getting.
Either give them the fuck back or tell everyone to go fuck them selves.. Dragging out the situation makes no sense. Pretty sure no one cares at this point either way.
Either give them the fuck back or tell everyone to go fuck them selves.. Dragging out the situation makes no sense. Pretty sure no one cares at this point either way.
I couldn't agree with this comment more.
June 21, 2011, 07:31:25 PM
I am heading over to the Bitcoin faceut with my sleeping bag and camp stove (and my 600 Gmail accounts).
600 accounts won't even get you 1 BTC.
June 21, 2011, 07:23:25 PM
Why drag out this situation? Basically, your only making $3000 off of keeping the stolen coins. Doesn't make sense to ruin your reputation over such an insignificant amount that you put 0 work into getting.
Either give them the fuck back or tell everyone to go fuck them selves.. Dragging out the situation makes no sense. Pretty sure no one cares at this point either way.
Either give them the fuck back or tell everyone to go fuck them selves.. Dragging out the situation makes no sense. Pretty sure no one cares at this point either way.
June 21, 2011, 06:55:20 PM
Petition to FREE KEVIN!!
Finally! A chance to bust out my old yellow bumper stickers!
June 21, 2011, 06:41:24 PM
There is one fact to all of this.
MT Gox doesnt lose anything.
Why is that ?
After all, it was 100% their fault by their own admission.
Shitty security or shitty choice in who they hired to audit is irrelevent, the buck stops with MT Gox.
What if this was all an elaborate contrived ruse on MT Gox's part to skim money and bitcoins.
Yes, yes I know lots trust MT Gox, but havent we all know people we trusted that we thought were honest, for much longer periods of time than any of us have known MT Gox, just to learn they lied, cheated, deceived, and/or stole from us ?
Ex-significant others, ex-friends, associates, even that bad seed relative ...
How much documented absolute fact is known ?
none.
just throwing it out there.
MT Gox doesnt lose anything.
Why is that ?
After all, it was 100% their fault by their own admission.
Shitty security or shitty choice in who they hired to audit is irrelevent, the buck stops with MT Gox.
What if this was all an elaborate contrived ruse on MT Gox's part to skim money and bitcoins.
Yes, yes I know lots trust MT Gox, but havent we all know people we trusted that we thought were honest, for much longer periods of time than any of us have known MT Gox, just to learn they lied, cheated, deceived, and/or stole from us ?
Ex-significant others, ex-friends, associates, even that bad seed relative ...
How much documented absolute fact is known ?
none.
just throwing it out there.
June 21, 2011, 06:24:22 PM
I'm glad to see that Kevin is much more mature and reasonable than his supporters.
June 21, 2011, 06:19:51 PM
The 643.2771BTC I withdrew from Mt Gox before trading was halted has been used to question my motives. To try to prove my intentions, I have moved the entire balance to an escrow account at Clearcoin:
https://clearcoin.appspot.com/status/r_H5PyEWwb5wEa8RTbrMTY8k
I cannot retrieve them for a month now. The options are:
1) I press the release button and donate them to the Bitcoin Faucet
2) The FBI accepts "Kevin logged in within 15 minutes of the attacker" as enough evidence to arrest me and seize my wallet as evidence and/or I end up convicted and the FBI buys some new socks and night lights for the whole office with the balance.
3) One month from now, when things have calmed down and I am obviously not arrested, they'll be returned to me and hopefully by then we will have determined their rightful home.
It would be an incredible show of faith if Mt Gox would volunteer to do something similar, but I'm not making this demand off them.
https://clearcoin.appspot.com/status/r_H5PyEWwb5wEa8RTbrMTY8k
I cannot retrieve them for a month now. The options are:
1) I press the release button and donate them to the Bitcoin Faucet
2) The FBI accepts "Kevin logged in within 15 minutes of the attacker" as enough evidence to arrest me and seize my wallet as evidence and/or I end up convicted and the FBI buys some new socks and night lights for the whole office with the balance.
3) One month from now, when things have calmed down and I am obviously not arrested, they'll be returned to me and hopefully by then we will have determined their rightful home.
It would be an incredible show of faith if Mt Gox would volunteer to do something similar, but I'm not making this demand off them.
Kevin,
This I can applaud and support fully. Well done.
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