If you refer to Myers-Briggs as pseudo science, I will not be arguing this point with you. However, this theory helped me to understand myself and other people. I also noticed that there is disproportionally high numbers of INTP's and ENTP's among bitcoin early and not so early adopters as compared to general population (but there is no credible research known on this).
<--- Waves to fellow INTP's (ENTP's too).
Topic: Mappers vs Packers. Why Most People Don't Get Bitcoin - page 3. (Read 11125 times)
This is all pseudoscience.
Talk page:
This isn't exactly a real psychological theory. This is just a hypothesis thought up by a computer programmer/blogger. While I think it is interesting, I don't really think it needs it's own Wikipedia page linked as a psychology stub. Maybe once some folks with PhD.'s do some experiments and actually turn it into a theory, then we can write about it here. Otherwise, I am forced to assume that this page was added to Wikipedia by the blogger himself. If this is the case, then this is improper use of Wikipedia.
Talk page:
This isn't exactly a real psychological theory. This is just a hypothesis thought up by a computer programmer/blogger. While I think it is interesting, I don't really think it needs it's own Wikipedia page linked as a psychology stub. Maybe once some folks with PhD.'s do some experiments and actually turn it into a theory, then we can write about it here. Otherwise, I am forced to assume that this page was added to Wikipedia by the blogger himself. If this is the case, then this is improper use of Wikipedia.
Glad to see Jungian psychology and Myers-Briggs mentioned here. Someone mentioned a male/female dichotomy and I don't believe that is correct in relation to packer/mapper (at least not as far as it relates to Sensing/iNtuition).
Many years ago I was involved with an entheogentic plants list and due to the nature of the topic we made heavy use of cryptography and remailers. Out of curiosity and a similar thread, a huge number of us took the Myers-Briggs test and unanimously categorized ourselves Intuitive. I imagine the same would be true here among bitcoiners.
Intuition is the preferred method of perceiving the world by only about 25% of the general population. If I recall there was no strong statistical difference between men and women with respect to Sensing and Intuition. There is, however, and huge judging correlation between men and Thinking and women and Feeling.
Perhaps T/F relates to the mapper/packers in the sense that a mapper applies logic while a packer gives greater weight to their emotional response.
Cheers, from an ENTP
Many years ago I was involved with an entheogentic plants list and due to the nature of the topic we made heavy use of cryptography and remailers. Out of curiosity and a similar thread, a huge number of us took the Myers-Briggs test and unanimously categorized ourselves Intuitive. I imagine the same would be true here among bitcoiners.
Intuition is the preferred method of perceiving the world by only about 25% of the general population. If I recall there was no strong statistical difference between men and women with respect to Sensing and Intuition. There is, however, and huge judging correlation between men and Thinking and women and Feeling.
Perhaps T/F relates to the mapper/packers in the sense that a mapper applies logic while a packer gives greater weight to their emotional response.
Cheers, from an ENTP
The whole mappers vs. packers epistemology is about how skillfully we are able to model our world. The scientific method vs. our patter-seeking animal instincts. Packers have evolved to survive in the natural world, but the inevitable outcome of all evolution is extinction. If we don't become mappers (positivists), then we will be replaced by species that will better adapt to the environment we create.
It's clearly the mappers, like bitcoin enthusiasts, who steer the world. If the human race followed packers, we might have never left the dark ages. Or even worse, we might all be wearing those godawful cheese hats. Anyway, packers tend to be followers, because they don't have the vision or risk tolerance to lead, so I'm not too worried about it.
Maybe I'm not understanding this hypothesis. I tend to see the world leaders as mostly highly efficient predatorial packers. The few mappers in the world have to be wary of them. Mappers tend to have complex ideas and mappers tend to have loud voices proclaiming their knowledge. Try watching a creation vs evolution debate sometime. Our civilization is frequently hindered by distractions by packers with things like war and corporate sponsored sporting events.
You should read some of the original programmer's stone papers. The M0 hypothesis (if we can call it that) has a lot to say about charisma. The Mapper/packer axis is orthogonal to the M0/immune axis, but a mapper/immune type that can see and do the M0 language is a powerful force (for good or for evil), but a packer/M0 type can be nearly as powerful, just less directed.
i see 4 classes of people when it comes to these sort of things
the intelligent
the creators
the controllers
the tools
the intelligent are the people that understand things at a low level, like how bitcoin works, and cryptography and other things. they want to know how stuff works. this would describe most people who understand bitcoin, as they love to learn about things. even if they disagree. they question everything. if you tell them to do something, they ask why and what for.
the creators make the stuff that intelligent want to understand, like bitcoin and cryptography and such. they get shit done. this describes people that made and develop bitcoin. when they fell their rights have been infringed, they fight. they also fit into the intelligent.
the controllers use the products of the above 2 classes to control the tools, mostly the 2nd class. they are people like the government and other very high level positions with a lot of authority and influence.(verisign the president, although he kinda fits as a tool too.)
the tools are the people that don't care or are too stupid or don't care about anything. they drift through limbo their entire lives not really understanding anything, controlled by the controllers. they do without asking why.
i gave only electronic examples, but there are plenty of non electronic examples.
its a sad but true reality.
the intelligent
the creators
the controllers
the tools
the intelligent are the people that understand things at a low level, like how bitcoin works, and cryptography and other things. they want to know how stuff works. this would describe most people who understand bitcoin, as they love to learn about things. even if they disagree. they question everything. if you tell them to do something, they ask why and what for.
the creators make the stuff that intelligent want to understand, like bitcoin and cryptography and such. they get shit done. this describes people that made and develop bitcoin. when they fell their rights have been infringed, they fight. they also fit into the intelligent.
the controllers use the products of the above 2 classes to control the tools, mostly the 2nd class. they are people like the government and other very high level positions with a lot of authority and influence.(verisign the president, although he kinda fits as a tool too.)
the tools are the people that don't care or are too stupid or don't care about anything. they drift through limbo their entire lives not really understanding anything, controlled by the controllers. they do without asking why.
i gave only electronic examples, but there are plenty of non electronic examples.
its a sad but true reality.
This is true. This is really difficult to sell Bitcoin to someone who don't get what money, inflation or fractional reserve is.
For those persons I think we better to only talk about the trivial stuff :
- non-reversable
- almost no fees
- no bank involved
- fast
- easy
- do not talk about mining. if you really need to, start by explaining the need to protect the network because there is no central authority...
- do not talk about the early adopters advantage. It look like the start of a pyramidal scheme.
- do not show a chart of the value BTC/USD. It looks like it's failing but it's only the fault of the speculators.
very true For those persons I think we better to only talk about the trivial stuff :
- non-reversable
- almost no fees
- no bank involved
- fast
- easy
- do not talk about mining. if you really need to, start by explaining the need to protect the network because there is no central authority...
- do not talk about the early adopters advantage. It look like the start of a pyramidal scheme.
- do not show a chart of the value BTC/USD. It looks like it's failing but it's only the fault of the speculators.
The whole mappers vs. packers epistemology is about how skillfully we are able to model our world. The scientific method vs. our patter-seeking animal instincts. Packers have evolved to survive in the natural world, but the inevitable outcome of all evolution is extinction. If we don't become mappers (positivists), then we will be replaced by species that will better adapt to the environment we create.
It's clearly the mappers, like bitcoin enthusiasts, who steer the world. If the human race followed packers, we might have never left the dark ages. Or even worse, we might all be wearing those godawful cheese hats. Anyway, packers tend to be followers, because they don't have the vision or risk tolerance to lead, so I'm not too worried about it.
Maybe I'm not understanding this hypothesis. I tend to see the world leaders as mostly highly efficient predatorial packers. The few mappers in the world have to be wary of them. Mappers tend to have complex ideas and mappers tend to have loud voices proclaiming their knowledge. Try watching a creation vs evolution debate sometime. Our civilization is frequently hindered by distractions by packers with things like war and corporate sponsored sporting events.
heh best thread i commented lately, with references that help allot. Guess i'm a mapper that tends to forget things fast 
Very interesting.
This seems to correspond exactly with the MBTI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbti) Intuition vs Sensing dichotomy. According to this theory, what you're describing is the "perceiving" function.
from wikipedia:
Sensing and intuition are the information-gathering (perceiving) functions. They describe how new information is understood and interpreted. Individuals who prefer sensing are more likely to trust information that is in the present, tangible and concrete: that is, information that can be understood by the five senses. They tend to distrust hunches, which seem to come "out of nowhere."[1]:2 They prefer to look for details and facts. For them, the meaning is in the data. On the other hand, those who prefer intuition tend to trust information that is more abstract or theoretical, that can be associated with other information (either remembered or discovered by seeking a wider context or pattern). They may be more interested in future possibilities. They tend to trust those flashes of insight that seem to bubble up from the unconscious mind. The meaning is in how the data relates to the pattern or theory.
perceiving function descriptions (http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/understanding-mbti-type-dynamics/the-eight-function-attitudes.asp)
Extraverted Sensing: Acts on concrete data from here and now. Trusts the present, then lets it go.
Introverted Sensing: Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use.
Extraverted Intuition: Sees possibilities in the external world. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which can then be shared with others.
Introverted Intuition: Looks at consistency of ideas and thoughts with an internal framework. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which may be hard for others to understand.
Most people are sensing types and it's really frustrating trying to explain abstract concepts to them, such as why bitcoin will work. Introverted Sensors won't use bitcoin until it's proven itself as a historically sound system. Extroverted Sensors, unfortunately, won't use bitcoin until everyone else is. it's up to us Intuitives to bootstrap this revolution!
This seems to correspond exactly with the MBTI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbti) Intuition vs Sensing dichotomy. According to this theory, what you're describing is the "perceiving" function.
from wikipedia:
Sensing and intuition are the information-gathering (perceiving) functions. They describe how new information is understood and interpreted. Individuals who prefer sensing are more likely to trust information that is in the present, tangible and concrete: that is, information that can be understood by the five senses. They tend to distrust hunches, which seem to come "out of nowhere."[1]:2 They prefer to look for details and facts. For them, the meaning is in the data. On the other hand, those who prefer intuition tend to trust information that is more abstract or theoretical, that can be associated with other information (either remembered or discovered by seeking a wider context or pattern). They may be more interested in future possibilities. They tend to trust those flashes of insight that seem to bubble up from the unconscious mind. The meaning is in how the data relates to the pattern or theory.
perceiving function descriptions (http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/understanding-mbti-type-dynamics/the-eight-function-attitudes.asp)
Extraverted Sensing: Acts on concrete data from here and now. Trusts the present, then lets it go.
Introverted Sensing: Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use.
Extraverted Intuition: Sees possibilities in the external world. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which can then be shared with others.
Introverted Intuition: Looks at consistency of ideas and thoughts with an internal framework. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which may be hard for others to understand.
Most people are sensing types and it's really frustrating trying to explain abstract concepts to them, such as why bitcoin will work. Introverted Sensors won't use bitcoin until it's proven itself as a historically sound system. Extroverted Sensors, unfortunately, won't use bitcoin until everyone else is. it's up to us Intuitives to bootstrap this revolution!
It seems like mappers would usually be the early half in the technology adoption lifecycle whereas packers would be in the late half of the technology adoption cycle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle
nice
, yeah same story with bitcoin and hope we don't have to get into account "external factors" ex. banks and other status-quo maintainers 
It seems like mappers would usually be the early half in the technology adoption lifecycle whereas packers would be in the late half of the technology adoption cycle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle
The whole mappers vs. packers epistemology is about how skillfully we are able to model our world. The scientific method vs. our patter-seeking animal instincts. Packers have evolved to survive in the natural world, but the inevitable outcome of all evolution is extinction. If we don't become mappers (positivists), then we will be replaced by species that will better adapt to the environment we create.
It's clearly the mappers, like bitcoin enthusiasts, who steer the world. If the human race followed packers, we might have never left the dark ages. Or even worse, we might all be wearing those godawful cheese hats. Anyway, packers tend to be followers, because they don't have the vision or risk tolerance to lead, so I'm not too worried about it.
The whole mappers vs. packers epistemology is about how skillfully we are able to model our world. The scientific method vs. our patter-seeking animal instincts. Packers have evolved to survive in the natural world, but the inevitable outcome of all evolution is extinction. If we don't become mappers (positivists), then we will be replaced by species that will better adapt to the environment we create.
@FreeTrade thanks for opening this thread and posting the external links, you just managed to explain a whole life dilemma i had about people psychology. I only managed to link this two, by myself, with the predominance of male or female genes in a person.
Personal rant... Within mappers male genes would dominate. They tend to assume risks with ease, explore their environment, investigate a problem before addressing it, etc. Exactly the opposite happens with individuals that have female genes dominate, or packers, prefer large communities to feel secure, adapt or try to match new things with already known stuff, use something once they see it working. Taking risks is not an option for them though.
We made a great team over the centuries and if we want to succeed as a race we can't allow having to many from a type, mappers or packers. I am sure great discoveries were made by mappers but they tend to forget fast and pass on to other things, with the help of packers we had all that knowledge gathered and passed over time. Dunno if i'm even close to the theory but i had to spit it out.
Personal rant... Within mappers male genes would dominate. They tend to assume risks with ease, explore their environment, investigate a problem before addressing it, etc. Exactly the opposite happens with individuals that have female genes dominate, or packers, prefer large communities to feel secure, adapt or try to match new things with already known stuff, use something once they see it working. Taking risks is not an option for them though.
We made a great team over the centuries and if we want to succeed as a race we can't allow having to many from a type, mappers or packers. I am sure great discoveries were made by mappers but they tend to forget fast and pass on to other things, with the help of packers we had all that knowledge gathered and passed over time. Dunno if i'm even close to the theory but i had to spit it out.
tl;dr: We understand Bitcoin because we are better than them. Let the circlejerk commence!
Personally I think there are different types of Bitcoiners too.
Some understand it, almost from first principles - they really get it. Falkvinge as a prominent example.
Others don't get it at all and are responding to the pyramid-scheme like aspect of it. It's dumb luck they got into BTC rather than a pyramid-scheme or ponzi.
I see both on this forum! How do you know which you are? If you've ever lost money in a pyramid-scheme, ponzi, or MLM scam before, you're probably the latter.
If OP is right, bitcoin won't get widespread adoption by general consumer Packers until there's been a pattern drawn out for them by general consumer Mappers (for several years).
Packers are happy enough to use something once they see it working - being practical is not a problem.
It's in discussion where you need to be aware of their different way of thinking.
I'm sure this will sound familiar to you -
--------------
An aspect of packer thinking that drives mappers up the wall, is that packers often seem to neither seek out the flaws in their own logic, nor even hear them when they utter them. Worse, when flaws are pointed out to them, they are likely to react by justifying following logic that they cheerfully admit is flawed, on grounds of administrative convenience. The evidence of their own senses is not as important as behaviour learned through repetition, and they seem to have no sense of proportion when performing cost/benefit analyses. This is because packers do not create integrated conceptual pictures from as much as possible of what they know. The mapper may point out a fact, but it is one fact amongst so many. The packer does not have a conceptual picture of the situation that indicates the important issues, so the principal source of guidance is a set of procedural responses that specify action to be taken. The procedure that is selected to be followed will be something of a lottery. For the mapper, one fact that should fit the map but doesn't, means the whole map is suspect. The error could wander around like a lump in a carpet, and end up somewhere really important. Both parties agree that they should do the `logical' thing, but two people can disagree about logic when one sees relationships that the other has only ever been dissuaded from seeing.
tl;dr: We understand Bitcoin because we are better than them. Let the circlejerk commence!
If OP is right, bitcoin won't get widespread adoption by general consumer Packers until there's been a pattern drawn out for them by general consumer Mappers (for several years).
But, elicit drug consumer Packers might exhibit a different time preference when they see a pattern drawn out for them by elicit drug consumer Mappers - and take it up a little quicker.
And organizations that find themselves on the wrong side of governmental pressure on Paypal might find they need fresh ideas or leadership in a hurry - and spot the pattern drawn out for them by organizations headed by Mappers.
And Packers in a country with a hyper-inflating currency will feel a fire under their posteriors - to spot the pattern drawn out for them by flight-to-safety Mappers that figured it out.
These and other niche groups, stroke by stroke, will help to paint a picture that challenges the pre-conceived notions of general consumer Packers.
The time frames we're dealing with are clearly historically short. They're just longer than we would have hoped - having lived through the big run-up of June.
But, elicit drug consumer Packers might exhibit a different time preference when they see a pattern drawn out for them by elicit drug consumer Mappers - and take it up a little quicker.
And organizations that find themselves on the wrong side of governmental pressure on Paypal might find they need fresh ideas or leadership in a hurry - and spot the pattern drawn out for them by organizations headed by Mappers.
And Packers in a country with a hyper-inflating currency will feel a fire under their posteriors - to spot the pattern drawn out for them by flight-to-safety Mappers that figured it out.
These and other niche groups, stroke by stroke, will help to paint a picture that challenges the pre-conceived notions of general consumer Packers.
The time frames we're dealing with are clearly historically short. They're just longer than we would have hoped - having lived through the big run-up of June.
There are two types of people in the world: those who try to peg 7 billion human beings into two square holes, and those who to try to actually understand other people.
Remember, folks, ignore lists only work if you tell people they're on them. 
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