Topic: Mark Karpeles, please liberate my money (Read 5593 times)
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I just went through this crap a few weeks ago. I feel sorry for this guy and anyone else who has to go through this. As mentioned earlier in the thread there was no exit method offered, so our money is essentially stolen by Gox during this process. Somewhere else on these forums a member who has experience with stock, futures, forex brokers, etc. explained very well how they must provide an exit method prior to requiring ID, proof of residency.
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TL;DR:
Good! Do it!
Yes I guess I could open a new ticket
Good! Do it!
....hot air....
TL;DR
Yes I guess I could open a new ticket, but the previously denied ticket sets a bad precedent that can and may be used against you, Mark has not said anything that it will not be the case, many times in government or bureaucratic enterprises make a decision based on a previous decision, you may say it is not fair but nevertheless that is a reality of life, so to prevent this problem you either avoid the bad precedent in first place, or ask some authority Mark in this case, some assurances that everything will be fine once he gets the ID.
When it comes to the law, it is good not to have bad precedents, since they can and might be used against you.
I would not be surprised if Mark says your were already denied once, and then have to enter another loop of compliance at my expense.
When a company in general wants to help you out, they will not stop and say its the law tough luck, when they do that they create what it called a level of distrust with justified reasons, that are a million things a company can do when a problem like this happens, like better communication, and provide some guarantee that once they receive the ID they will there will not be another problem.
True they have to comply with the law, but that does not mean they have to be nasty and require more than the law asks for, and that does not mean communications need to fail.
I have dealt with other exchanges and have not had any problems, even with banks, when a bank is nasty you switch to another bank, same thing with exchanges, but in this case my money is hostage, and hopefully I will get it back once Mark receives my ID, but that is not guaranteed by him, otherwise he would say it and he has not.
If Mark simply just said "I will free your money once I get your ID" and provide that assurance, that would make things a lot better, that is not against the law, and that way I would know for sure that after he gets the ID everything is clear, but he has not done that, and I am afraid of more compliance loops.
When it comes to the law, it is good not to have bad precedents, since they can and might be used against you.
I would not be surprised if Mark says your were already denied once, and then have to enter another loop of compliance at my expense.
When a company in general wants to help you out, they will not stop and say its the law tough luck, when they do that they create what it called a level of distrust with justified reasons, that are a million things a company can do when a problem like this happens, like better communication, and provide some guarantee that once they receive the ID they will there will not be another problem.
True they have to comply with the law, but that does not mean they have to be nasty and require more than the law asks for, and that does not mean communications need to fail.
I have dealt with other exchanges and have not had any problems, even with banks, when a bank is nasty you switch to another bank, same thing with exchanges, but in this case my money is hostage, and hopefully I will get it back once Mark receives my ID, but that is not guaranteed by him, otherwise he would say it and he has not.
If Mark simply just said "I will free your money once I get your ID" and provide that assurance, that would make things a lot better, that is not against the law, and that way I would know for sure that after he gets the ID everything is clear, but he has not done that, and I am afraid of more compliance loops.
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It's a support ticket. Support tickets typically go to the extreme for easy sort-ability. In the meantime, the system believes you have failed to comply (which you have by the system's requirements as the system requires complete documents). When you get the complete documents, submit them in a new ticket (or maybe even the same?) and then they should be looked at again and "approved" if that is indeed what the system needed to continue.
You're arguing semantics here.
It's also of nay importance since he can open a new ticket once he is ready with his documents. Obvious misunderstanding going on here and a bit of obsession of the semantics.
It's a support ticket. Support tickets typically go to the extreme for easy sort-ability. In the meantime, the system believes you have failed to comply (which you have by the system's requirements as the system requires complete documents). When you get the complete documents, submit them in a new ticket (or maybe even the same?) and then they should be looked at again and "approved" if that is indeed what the system needed to continue.
You're arguing semantics here.
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Mark, you say that you are awaiting for the documents but your actions show otherwise.
It is clear that the documents have been requested, nevertheless you closed the verification process with a "denied", when the law does not prevent you from waiting, and leave the case open with either a "wait" or "hold" status, I fully understand the AML laws may require my to identify myself I am am doing the best to comply, but I do not have your cooperation.
At the very least you should leave the case open and close it only if I fail to deliver, but as I have shown the documents are being processed it is your duty to wait, since official documents show that the required documentation has already been requested.
Also it is my duty to identify myself according to the law, but I do not believe international law requires anything beyond identification, if I am wrong please provide an official link that says otherwise.
In a few weeks I should have the documents.
At this point all I am asking is to change the status of my case from "denied", to "wait", "on hold", or "standby", basically anything that indicates that you are waiting for the documents, and not something that indicates a failure to comply, since I have not failed, I am fully complying, but the law is very slow.
It is clear that the documents have been requested, nevertheless you closed the verification process with a "denied", when the law does not prevent you from waiting, and leave the case open with either a "wait" or "hold" status, I fully understand the AML laws may require my to identify myself I am am doing the best to comply, but I do not have your cooperation.
At the very least you should leave the case open and close it only if I fail to deliver, but as I have shown the documents are being processed it is your duty to wait, since official documents show that the required documentation has already been requested.
Also it is my duty to identify myself according to the law, but I do not believe international law requires anything beyond identification, if I am wrong please provide an official link that says otherwise.
In a few weeks I should have the documents.
At this point all I am asking is to change the status of my case from "denied", to "wait", "on hold", or "standby", basically anything that indicates that you are waiting for the documents, and not something that indicates a failure to comply, since I have not failed, I am fully complying, but the law is very slow.
It's a support ticket. Support tickets typically go to the extreme for easy sort-ability. In the meantime, the system believes you have failed to comply (which you have by the system's requirements as the system requires complete documents). When you get the complete documents, submit them in a new ticket (or maybe even the same?) and then they should be looked at again and "approved" if that is indeed what the system needed to continue.
You're arguing semantics here.
Mark, you say that you are awaiting for the documents but your actions show otherwise.
It is clear that the documents have been requested, nevertheless you closed the verification process with a "denied", when the law does not prevent you from waiting, and leave the case open with either a "wait" or "hold" status, I fully understand the AML laws may require my to identify myself I am am doing the best to comply, but I do not have your cooperation.
At the very least you should leave the case open and close it only if I fail to deliver, but as I have shown the documents are being processed it is your duty to wait, since official documents show that the required documentation has already been requested.
Also it is my duty to identify myself according to the law, but I do not believe international law requires anything beyond identification, if I am wrong please provide an official link that says otherwise.
In a few weeks I should have the documents.
At this point all I am asking is to change the status of my case from "denied", to "wait", "on hold", or "standby", basically anything that indicates that you are waiting for the documents, and not something that indicates a failure to comply, since I have not failed, I am fully complying, but the law is very slow.
It is clear that the documents have been requested, nevertheless you closed the verification process with a "denied", when the law does not prevent you from waiting, and leave the case open with either a "wait" or "hold" status, I fully understand the AML laws may require my to identify myself I am am doing the best to comply, but I do not have your cooperation.
At the very least you should leave the case open and close it only if I fail to deliver, but as I have shown the documents are being processed it is your duty to wait, since official documents show that the required documentation has already been requested.
Also it is my duty to identify myself according to the law, but I do not believe international law requires anything beyond identification, if I am wrong please provide an official link that says otherwise.
In a few weeks I should have the documents.
At this point all I am asking is to change the status of my case from "denied", to "wait", "on hold", or "standby", basically anything that indicates that you are waiting for the documents, and not something that indicates a failure to comply, since I have not failed, I am fully complying, but the law is very slow.
Mark, fine they be not be valid as a proof of ID, but they are definitely valid as proof that that official documents have been requested as such it is your duty to honor this documents and leave the petition of verification open until such documents arrive, and not deny my verification petition knowingly through official documentation for this precise purpose that the official documents are on their way.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
A direct quote from our Support Team leader for your Sergio.
"Hello Sergio,
We sincerely regret that you have experienced difficulties in making use of Mt.Gox. Please be aware that the AML procedures which we are asking you to complete are legally obliged upon us by both Japanese and American financial law. Releasing your funds to you without gathering all the documentation required would be a crime under these laws, and as such we are forced to seek identifying documentation from you before we can return your funds.
We are, however, more than willing to work with you in relation to the AML process to achieve a satisfactory outcome for you. If you so desire, we can keep your AML application open until you are able to provide the requested documentation. Further, as soon as you provide us with the information which we are required to collect, we will re-review your application and contact you immediately.
It should be noted that the AML process is legally required of all money services businesses. Any company which does not under any circumstances ask for your personal information is breaking international banking law."
Kind regards,
It's perfectly understandable that MG wants AML documentation. It is not possible to run a reliable conduit between Bitcoin and the outer banking system without having their licensing and paperwork in order, which includes KYC on all their customers. If you want a completely unlicensed, unknown and anonymous exchange, they're out there and you can take your chances with them, and possibly get your cash with complete anonymity a few times before they're shut down or run away with the wallets. But the anger seems misplaced; I doubt if, given a choice, they would want to put their customers through his kind of hassle. Unfortunately this is the world we live in.
Mark, fine they be not be valid as a proof of ID, but they are definitely valid as proof that that official documents have been requested as such it is your duty to honor this documents and leave the petition of verification open until such documents arrive, and not deny my verification petition knowingly through official documentation for this precise purpose that the official documents are on their way.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
You are a bit mistaken here
1. Yes, you sent us documents from a government stating that you have been requested a new set of ID. No problem with that. But these are still not Official IDs just a paper stating that you requested these documents
2. Yes, no problems with that.
3. No, We are aware that you will get these documents and are waiting for them. Your account is still in available to you, you can still log-in and trade, only withdrawal are on hold. You are account is as for today in Pending for Verification. What has been so far denied is the document you sent us (see point 1)
4. No, as stated several times here we are waiting for your documents to arrive and to be sent to us in order to "unlock" all features on your account.
Bottom line. As for today you are NOT LOCKED OUT of your account, we just block all withdrawal until you are sending us a government issue photo ID like a passport for example, which is, as I believe what you requested from your government. Finally you account is in Pending AML since September 25 2011 (5 month ago), I am sure that since then you had all the time to get the proper documentation ready, we cannot be responsible if your government needs 3 to 4 weeks in order to issue you a passport.
you got GOXED!
+1 What's really ______ed up about the whole scam is that MtG will allow you to DEPOSIT both fiat and Bitcoin as much as you want without any verification. It's only when you want to withdraw that you find out that "Your papers are not in order!"
It's the same old KYC dejavu of the existing A_____s Incorporated financial system all over again. With Bitcoin at MtG, one is just exchanging one kind of government approved exchange for another...
Whether or not i ever get what little i have at MtG out, i won't use it for trading again, and will recommend to everyone i know that they don't use it. The end of the MtG oligopoly in Bitcoin is long overdue...
Sergio, you got GOXED!
All community members, stop Mtgox dead on their tracks by simply not using them. They are the bitcoin bullies that freeze your account anytime and then FORCE you to send them your PRIVATE documents for him probably to resell on the black market. Modern Thief. Its a shame that tradehill didnt know how to manage their cash flow. I rather deal with decent human beings than with the Mtgox thieves.
Sergio, speak to a lawyer and start a lawsuit agains Mtgox. Make it public and others in your position will follow. Somebody needs to travel to Japan and teach these guys some business manners.
In the meantime,
Visit, www.coinexchanger.com
All community members, stop Mtgox dead on their tracks by simply not using them. They are the bitcoin bullies that freeze your account anytime and then FORCE you to send them your PRIVATE documents for him probably to resell on the black market. Modern Thief. Its a shame that tradehill didnt know how to manage their cash flow. I rather deal with decent human beings than with the Mtgox thieves.
Sergio, speak to a lawyer and start a lawsuit agains Mtgox. Make it public and others in your position will follow. Somebody needs to travel to Japan and teach these guys some business manners.
In the meantime,
Visit, www.coinexchanger.com
Mark, fine they be not be valid as a proof of ID, but they are definitely valid as proof that that official documents have been requested as such it is your duty to honor this documents and leave the petition of verification open until such documents arrive, and not deny my verification petition knowingly through official documentation for this precise purpose that the official documents are on their way.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
Facts:
1. official documents that are valid proof that official documents have been requested have been sent to you.
2. You know that official documents are being processed based on official documentation.
3. Fail to acknowledge that official documents show documentation will take 3 to 4 weeks, and instead of waiting for this time, you decide to close verification petition, and deny my case, when instead you should wait for such documents, since you have official proof of that, and do not need to take my word for it, just base it on the documentation, if in doubt then verify.
4. You have fail to acknowledge if you will accept my government issued photo ID, which I should have in 3 to 4 weeks, and you have indicated that it is not a valid document, nevertheless it is official ID, and valid at banks.
The very least you could do at this point in to undeny my verification petition and change its status from deny to wait, and allow time for my documents to arrive and acknowledge that a government issue photo id is a valid document.
The documents you sent us have no value as identification document. They show you have a request in progress, however it is not acceptable as an ID proof for us (ie. via Internet).
Any ID document submitted to us has to be a valid ID document, including picture, date of expiration, document number, etc. and must be submitted in color with a good enough scan. The documents you have submitted do not fit into "valid ID document".
Anyway our legal department confirms your request is not receivable as such, until you can submit a valid ID document.
Your account was flagged as "AML data required" on Sun 25 Sep 2011 (JST) and we haven't received any valid document from you since then. Considering the risks involved we will get in touch with the payment processor to confirm your identity.
Any ID document submitted to us has to be a valid ID document, including picture, date of expiration, document number, etc. and must be submitted in color with a good enough scan. The documents you have submitted do not fit into "valid ID document".
Anyway our legal department confirms your request is not receivable as such, until you can submit a valid ID document.
Your account was flagged as "AML data required" on Sun 25 Sep 2011 (JST) and we haven't received any valid document from you since then. Considering the risks involved we will get in touch with the payment processor to confirm your identity.
Mark, The ID was requested and official government proof of that was submitted to mtgox, the proof had a picture and it clearly states it will take 3 to 4 weeks for delivery of final documents, and add to that another 3 business day for the mail delivery, nevertheless mtgox knowingly it would take 3 to 4 as shown with official government papers has decided to deny the petition and not wait for the official documentation, knowing that it has already been requested.
Here is the email I got from mtgox:
"Dear sergio,
We regret to inform you that the identification documentation you have submitted has been reviewed, and your request has been temporarily denied.
Reasons(s)
No form of government issued photographic identification documentation has been provided with this application.
We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, but it would be greatly appreciated if you resubmit the requested clarification(s) above.
Otherwise, if you would like to make further enquiries in relation to this, please do not hesitate to contact Mt.Gox Support."
This is clearly false the documentation I have provided has a picture and it is government documentation clearly stating that both ID and passport has been requested, and it clearly states a time frame of 3 to 4 weeks, nevertheless to fail to acknowledge that documentation and reject the application knowingly the documentation it is in process.
In regards connecting from several countries that is due to the occasional use of a vpn, a vpn is needed because many sites will show you different information depending on the country of where the connections is made, and since geeks, gurus and most people associated with bitcoins some some technical knowledge I never thought this would be a problem with a bitcoin exchange, in matter of fact I used that same vpn to other exchanges with absolutely no problems, with banks I admit I had problems in the past using a vpn, but a single phone took care of the problem, and they were open about, unlike mtgox that would not tell me it was the vpn that caused the problem.
Also I feel I have the right to use the account from any country, this restriction is not stated in the terms of service.
The other post by jimrandomh states that I am not linking my real identity to my account which is false, official documents have been submited to mtgox showing that documentation is in process, if mtgox is in doubt of the documentation I sent it his responsability to verify it, and if it is false he can send me to jail, but if it is clean the very least Marc should do is release my money, and undeny the verification petition.
At this point I am waiting for the final documents.
Here is the email I got from mtgox:
"Dear sergio,
We regret to inform you that the identification documentation you have submitted has been reviewed, and your request has been temporarily denied.
Reasons(s)
No form of government issued photographic identification documentation has been provided with this application.
We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, but it would be greatly appreciated if you resubmit the requested clarification(s) above.
Otherwise, if you would like to make further enquiries in relation to this, please do not hesitate to contact Mt.Gox Support."
This is clearly false the documentation I have provided has a picture and it is government documentation clearly stating that both ID and passport has been requested, and it clearly states a time frame of 3 to 4 weeks, nevertheless to fail to acknowledge that documentation and reject the application knowingly the documentation it is in process.
In regards connecting from several countries that is due to the occasional use of a vpn, a vpn is needed because many sites will show you different information depending on the country of where the connections is made, and since geeks, gurus and most people associated with bitcoins some some technical knowledge I never thought this would be a problem with a bitcoin exchange, in matter of fact I used that same vpn to other exchanges with absolutely no problems, with banks I admit I had problems in the past using a vpn, but a single phone took care of the problem, and they were open about, unlike mtgox that would not tell me it was the vpn that caused the problem.
Also I feel I have the right to use the account from any country, this restriction is not stated in the terms of service.
The other post by jimrandomh states that I am not linking my real identity to my account which is false, official documents have been submited to mtgox showing that documentation is in process, if mtgox is in doubt of the documentation I sent it his responsability to verify it, and if it is false he can send me to jail, but if it is clean the very least Marc should do is release my money, and undeny the verification petition.
At this point I am waiting for the final documents.
Your account has been deemed suspicious since you have been accessing your account from various countries (which I won't list for privacy reasons). This is an issue most people living outside their home country have. Being myself an expat, I have been often frustrated at being unable to use my credit card or seeing my order delayed.
Guidelines for AML/AT/KYC say that if the payment method cannot be linked to the country of the user, check is required, no matter how small the amount is.
This is usually resolved by providing a valid ID, which can be a national ID (if written in a language we understand) or a passport, driver's license, etc.
Now, as soon as you submit a valid ID I'll be happy to have your account active again, however until then there is unfortunately nothing we can legally do (You could ask your bank to reverse the funds sent through Dwolla, however).
Guidelines for AML/AT/KYC say that if the payment method cannot be linked to the country of the user, check is required, no matter how small the amount is.
This is usually resolved by providing a valid ID, which can be a national ID (if written in a language we understand) or a passport, driver's license, etc.
Now, as soon as you submit a valid ID I'll be happy to have your account active again, however until then there is unfortunately nothing we can legally do (You could ask your bank to reverse the funds sent through Dwolla, however).
CoinExchanger, you're making yourself look bad. MtGox has its share of problems, but in this case it's just following the law. Someone or some algorithm in the law enforcement world decided that sergio's account looked suspicious, and froze it. To get it unfrozen, sergio would have to submit a copy of his ID. Instead of sending ID, he claimed he didn't have any, and sent a receipt showing that he'd requested an ID. This probably means that he isn't willing to link the account to his real identity. So his funds are still frozen, and here he is complaining that MtGox won't break the law for him. Boo hoo.
We never require any documents at all from our users. We never hold funds hostage. No limits.
Instant withdrawals.
STOP GOX in their tracks. They abuse the community with their silly demands, always, after receiving your funds, never before.
If you foresome reason can NOT provide verification with gox, they will start a "detailed review" of your account which means they will hold your funds for months until "completed".
Visit, www.coinexchanger.com
Instant withdrawals.
STOP GOX in their tracks. They abuse the community with their silly demands, always, after receiving your funds, never before.
If you foresome reason can NOT provide verification with gox, they will start a "detailed review" of your account which means they will hold your funds for months until "completed".
Visit, www.coinexchanger.com
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