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Topic: Mental illness is most likely a fiction (Read 2615 times)

hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 28, 2012, 03:47:56 PM
#30

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)



Also, I forgot to mention, this is actually likely much closer to the effects of toxo infestation (it's a brain parasite not a virus). Here are the results from a good paper that doesn't try to make ridiculous claims or hide the data. They do fit a line when it looks like a log or sigmoidal curve would be better though:



Quote
Prevalence was positively, but weakly and not
significantly, associated with the cultural dimensions of
uncertainty avoidance (n=32, R2=0.07, p=0.061)
....

Individuals in populations that rate high in the cultural
dimension of uncertainty avoidance feel threatened by
uncertain or unknown situations, leading to a ruleoriented
society geared to reduce uncertainty
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635495/pdf/rspb20063641.pdf
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 27, 2012, 10:32:02 PM
#29
He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm

Does a viral infection count as illness or injury?

(Note the numbers are very significant here: 10-20% of people carry the T. Gondii infection. People with T. Gondii infection are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide. -> 60% or more of suicide attempts could be T. Gondii-related).

Alternatively, perhaps the axioms of natural law dictate that T. Gondii is either (a) caused by child abuse or (b) imaginary. Ask the cult leader for the correct answer. Interpretations of natural law at this level are quite subtle.

Or perhaps cat ownership is child abuse?
http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/03/are-cat-ladies-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)



Did you read that paper? It has all the hallmarks of being an exaggeration or outright false positive.
1) It has  no figures and only two tables. One has an obvious error indicating inadequate peer review. Nowhere is the actual data shown.
2) Main source of data is reported to be "severely skewed and bimodal"
3) Much larger effect size than expected due to previous literature. Implausible effect sizes are a trademark of false positives.
4) Strange, unequal sample sizes indicating they were likely not determined beforehand and high probability that sequential sampling occurred.
5) They actually admit to making multiple comparisons, but do not correct for this before making inferences.
6) Control group and Suicide group exclusion criteria vary greatly. The effect of this is not assessed.
-What is the toxo antigen they used? Could there be a human gene the antibody to it also reacts with that is upregulated by SSRI, etc treatment?


Also, you have misinterpreted odds ratio as a risk ratio, and the claims you make don't make sense on the face of it: google says about 33% of US households have at least one cat while attempted suicide rates are close to .1% of people.

Anyway, if there actually was strong evidence that having a cat lead to your children having mental disorders later in life, I think it would widely be considered as child abuse.



legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
December 27, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
#28
He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm

Does a viral infection count as illness or injury?

(Note the numbers are very significant here: 10-20% of people carry the T. Gondii infection. People with T. Gondii infection are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide. -> 60% or more of suicide attempts could be T. Gondii-related).

Alternatively, perhaps the axioms of natural law dictate that T. Gondii is either (a) caused by child abuse or (b) imaginary. Ask the cult leader for the correct answer. Interpretations of natural law at this level are quite subtle.

Or perhaps cat ownership is child abuse?
http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/03/are-cat-ladies-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)



hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 27, 2012, 06:26:58 PM
#27
So by your definition, OP, my high-functioning Autism (aka Asperger's Syndrome) is either invented or a mental illness?

And yet not only do I have a different physical brain structure (not sure what the real term is) to prove my Autism, but I happen to have an above average IQ and boosted Math skills, with the only side effect being my inability to understand specific social cues.

Tell me more about how I'm an undesirable. I'm sure you know more about disorders than someone who actually has one.
This is not what he's saying.

Most "mental illness" is more accurately termed damage, caused by abuse. Your condition is completely different. I'm not up on the causes of Asperger's or other autism spectrum conditions, but I might even call Asperger's a beneficial adaptation. As you say, above average IQ, and higher mathematical ability. Poor social skills seems a pretty good trade for that.
full member
Activity: 166
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December 27, 2012, 06:08:09 PM
#26
So by your definition, OP, my high-functioning Autism (aka Asperger's Syndrome) is either invented or a mental illness?

And yet not only do I have a different physical brain structure (not sure what the real term is) to prove my Autism, but I happen to have an above average IQ and boosted Math skills, with the only side effect being my inability to understand specific social cues.

Tell me more about how I'm an undesirable. I'm sure you know more about disorders than someone who actually has one.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
December 22, 2012, 08:08:36 AM
#25
No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

The distinction between an illness and an injury is very significant.  An injury is an effect of a cause which can be resolved by entering into another cause.  An illness is indicative of a condition which suggests that a person is a victim of such a state.  And it is this perceived state of victimization that organized healthcare, particularly the pharmaceutical companies, profits from.

In terms of the OP, there is no significant difference between illness and injury. A mental illness cause by trauma or genetically is no different from a mental illness caused by experiences which cause changes to the brain having the same effect. If the outcome is the same, then differentiating between the two is pointless and also prejudicial.
newbie
Activity: 33
Merit: 0
December 21, 2012, 10:48:51 PM
#24
No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

The distinction between an illness and an injury is very significant.  An injury is an effect of a cause which can be resolved by entering into another cause.  An illness is indicative of a condition which suggests that a person is a victim of such a state.  And it is this perceived state of victimization that organized healthcare, particularly the pharmaceutical companies, profits from.
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
December 19, 2012, 12:48:21 AM
#23
If you catch a cold, you can hardly blame the guy who gave it to you. (Well, you can, but there's nothing you can do about it.) If someone breaks your leg, however....

It's not really as much of a difference as you're implying. The distinction here is whether the other party intended to cause you harm. We overlook minor, commonplace things like catching a cold from someone for two reasons; first, it's rarely deliberate, and second, we all expect to accidentally give someone else a cold or similar at some point, so on the whole it evens out and isn't worth getting upset about. However, if someone deliberately exposed you to a disease, however minor, that would be a form of assault, just as if they'd beat you up or broken your leg, or injected you with poison.

It's worth noting that "illness" can refer to conditions which are not contagious; cancer, for example, or malnutrition, or a chemical imbalance. Merriam-Webster gives the medical definition as "an unhealthy condition of body or mind". It's a very general term. While mental conditions certainly do not seem to resemble viral or bacterial infections (unless you count certain memes...), one can hardly argue that they aren't "unhealthy conditions".

I would say the term illness is more applicable, the the general sense, than injury, though injury (abuse) may be involved in causing the illness. A blow to the head is an injury; the resulting concussion is an illness. A similar relationship applies between mental abuse and mental illness.
hero member
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 18, 2012, 11:27:53 PM
#22
He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

how is that even relevant as long as he doesnt point out what implications that distinction should have, in his opinion?


If you catch a cold, you can hardly blame the guy who gave it to you. (Well, you can, but there's nothing you can do about it.) If someone breaks your leg, however....
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 18, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
#21
I think its important to note that whether or not we call them illnessess or injuries or whatever, the current treatment regimes are far overrated and overtrusted.
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1008
December 18, 2012, 11:03:29 PM
#20
He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

how is that even relevant as long as he doesnt point out what implications that distinction should have, in his opinion?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 18, 2012, 10:04:46 PM
#19
No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
December 18, 2012, 09:54:18 PM
#18
No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.


newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
December 18, 2012, 09:34:06 PM
#17
Welp, time to tell all those skizophrenics that there really are leprachauns telling them to burn things...

Who knew?

You know, I try to be pleasant... http://youtu.be/KLODu02R_gA?t=16m15s

I'd appreciate you actually participating in the conversation rather than making a mockery out of a very serious topic that affects millions of people.  But if you can't, please do disrupt the conversation once again, so I can file you in my ignore list.
420
hero member
Activity: 756
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December 18, 2012, 08:00:12 PM
#16
well that guy's usually right. and I met him
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
December 18, 2012, 07:48:14 PM
#15
My personal experience leads me to strongly believe that people can be mentally ill without having been abused, the same way they can be born blind or deaf or with any other disability.

Sup man, hope you're okay.

Modern science of mental health and neurology says otherwise -- in the vast majority if not all cases of mental illness (exception made for provable congenital defects affecting the brain), there is always an environmental trigger associated.  This is why there isn't a "schizophrenia gene" or a "psychopathy gene", but rather genes that make people propense to schizophrenia or psychopathy.

If you are interested in the topic, I suggest these conversation starters:

http://fdrurl.com/bib

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOScYBwMyAA <- this one in particular

http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/19/reasontv-three-ingredients-for <- famous neurologist

Stef has a few interviews with (inb4 "fringe!") well-known mental health professionals about the topic.  I suggest you take a look at these too.

Please do ignore the two other people in this thread -- they are attempting to sabotage this post by either provoking me or derailing the topic.  Some people just have virulent and abusive reactions to discussing the (pretty much taboo) topic of child abuse; I won't speculate as to why they do that, but you can see for yourself that they definitely do, right here.

The current research is that schizophrenia is caused part genetic and part behavioural reasons.  Proved by the reasons that mental health problems can be heritable and by the fact when identical twins are born and one develops schizophrenia.  That the other twin is only 50:50 likely to develop schizophrenia as well.
hero member
Activity: 700
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daytrader/superhero
December 18, 2012, 07:46:57 PM
#14
Welp, time to tell all those skizophrenics that there really are leprachauns telling them to burn things...

Who knew?
legendary
Activity: 1372
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1davout
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
December 18, 2012, 07:06:22 PM
#12
I love a guy that does exactly what he says other do to him and topics he responds or creates.  I am glad to find out that I am not the only one who feels Rudd-O is really rough when he responds.


Now to your point to stay on topic - Yes, I agree many mental illnesses are created by environmentally conditions, I would even say the majority (large majority).  I don't want to go on about this but I will leave it that our modern society has some very counter-productive messages that start with what the parents were taught as children up those each step of contact we make through society, schooling, media, peer-groups and straight-up propaganda.  
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
December 18, 2012, 07:03:19 PM
#11
My personal experience leads me to strongly believe that people can be mentally ill without having been abused, the same way they can be born blind or deaf or with any other disability.
Modern science of mental health and neurology says otherwise -- in the vast majority if not all cases of mental illness (exception made for provable congenital defects affecting the brain), there is always an environmental trigger associated.  This is why there isn't a "schizophrenia gene", but rather genes that make people propense to schizophrenia.

Well of course... just like every time you flip a coin (exception: all the times it lands tails) it lands heads!

Congenital means you're born with it.  Some people have mental illness resulting from congenital defects affecting the brain, just like you said.

I would love to have a conversation about the research exposed in the videos with you.  I understand they are very long, so I don't expect any kind of immediate feedback, but rest assured I would still love to have a conversation about it in a few days.
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