Mighty DTs - no manipulation LOL | Are you okay theymos?

The Sceptical Chymist

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Merit: 6981

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Quote from: teeGUMES on May 18, 2019, 02:11:23 PM

Did I use the wrong tool to bring light to this? Maybe/Probably. Is there a proper forum tool available? I don't think so.

I get it, believe me. There was no good tool to combat shitposters back before January 2018 when the merit system was implemented, so I and actmyname were using the trust system as a tool to fight them. It was not a good use of the trust system and I knew that, but I was so frustrated at how bad the situation had gotten that I felt I had to use the only tool available.

As far as the irreversible nature of merits and needing to think long and hard before leaving them....I don't think it's that big a deal. Merits are just a "like", except that they carry a lot more weight because many members need them to rank up, and they're somewhat of a status symbol here. But IMO it's not that big of a deal if merits occasionally are given out for questionable or controversial posts, hence why I think it's wrong to neg someone for a merit they gave out (unless it's an obvious case of abuse).

Anyway teeGUMES, no hard feelings from my end and I apologize for reacting the way I did. I should have given the situation a lot more thought before acting.

teeGUMES

legendary

Activity: 1253

Merit: 1203

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 18, 2019, 01:58:10 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory.

Giving red trust to someone for meriting a post that you disagree with, find offensive, or think was otherwise wrongfully merited isn't acceptable, and I think that's why I'd originally excluded teeGUMES from my trust list. I thought that was terrible judgement on his part, but in any case I don't think anybody should be negging members for those reasons.

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm.

Agree, but personally I wouldn't even give merit abusers a negative and I stopped doing so months ago. There is way too much subjectivity when it comes to handing out merits, and it's often difficult to prove someone has abused the merit system. Red paint should be applied very conservatively IMO.

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that once you merit something it can not be removed. When handing out merit you actually need to think longer and harder about what you are doing than when leaving positive/neutral/negative trust because it can not be modified or taken away (unless post deletion/admin?). The conversation we should be having hasn't even been had yet because the attack dogs came out and tried to destroy me because I temporarily red tagged some of their favorite members, when these members permanently merited a public dox.

Did I use the wrong tool to bring light to this? Maybe/Probably. Is there a proper forum tool available? I don't think so.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Activity: 3500

Merit: 6981

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Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory.

Giving red trust to someone for meriting a post that you disagree with, find offensive, or think was otherwise wrongfully merited isn't acceptable, and I think that's why I'd originally excluded teeGUMES from my trust list. I thought that was terrible judgement on his part, but in any case I don't think anybody should be negging members for those reasons.

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm.

Agree, but personally I wouldn't even give merit abusers a negative and I stopped doing so months ago. There is way too much subjectivity when it comes to handing out merits, and it's often difficult to prove someone has abused the merit system. Red paint should be applied very conservatively IMO.

Quote from: TheNewAnon135246 on May 18, 2019, 01:06:11 AM

That sounds like a government to me, which is exactly what Theymos wants to avoid.

Actisstupidname's suggestion that Theymos should pick his friends for DT would be basically going back to how the system was before, right? Theymos had picked the people he trusted to be DT1 members if I'm not mistaken, and I wouldn't exactly call that a government. They weren't necessarily scam busters or members who left a lot of negs or did any kind of actions normally associated with governance. I'd prefer we didn't go back to that.

marlboroza

legendary

Activity: 1932

Merit: 2272

It is actually good to have voting system, that prevents few users to remove someone from DT because other users can vote for user to stay in DT.

How many DT1 members we have, 80 or something? So real question is not why someone is excluded by few members Wink

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: mightyDTs on May 15, 2019, 01:05:41 PM

Anyway, I am interested to see LoyceV's http://loyce.club/trust project's next update for the following users:

teeGUMES: http://loyce.club/trust/2019-05-11_Sat_05.45h/307884.html | http://archive.is/yg3SS
OgNasty: http://loyce.club/trust/2019-05-11_Sat_05.45h/18321.html | http://archive.is/CKqZ0
Rmcdermott927: http://loyce.club/trust/2019-05-11_Sat_05.45h/289011.html | http://archive.is/Lor9U
bill gator: http://loyce.club/trust/2019-05-11_Sat_05.45h/370611.html | http://archive.is/ySv1A

Here you go:
teeGUMES (Trust: 103: -0 / +11) (DT1! (0) 285 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
OgNasty (Trust: 21: -6 / +64) (~~DT1~~ (-2) 664 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Rmcdermott927 (Trust: 201: -0 / +21) (37 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
bill gator (Trust: 0: -1 / +14) (DT1! (0) 510 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

BitcoinSupremo

copper member

Activity: 1442

Merit: 529

Quote from: TheNewAnon135246 on May 18, 2019, 01:06:11 AM

Quote from: actisstupidname on May 17, 2019, 04:48:00 PM

Quote from: Quickseller on May 15, 2019, 01:16:52 PM

I think theymos should go back to cultivating a good (default) trust list.

I don’t think the current experiment is a success.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 15, 2019, 01:55:05 PM

~I'm not going to do anything hasty or out of emotion with respect to my trust list until I can figure out what the hell is going on.
~
I really don't like the state bitcointalk is in right now.

Quote from: Thule on May 15, 2019, 03:30:31 PM

What a surprise these people who are talking the most about forgiveness trying to end that topic and gaslightning are the ones who kicked other DT members out.

Quote from: TECSHARE on May 15, 2019, 04:29:33 PM

Hhampuz had me included as of this morning, now suddenly I am excluded in spite of the fact I never said a word about Hhampuz during this whole blowout, which leads me to believe he is doing so because he has pressure being put on him from the "club of special people" he is so desperately trying to be a part of. I would have loved to hear his objections, but when I went to PM him about it, I found he had blocked me too like a coward in spite of our previous open line of amicable communication. I guess I will just have to take my discussion of it to the public then since he is to afraid to have a private conversation with people he found trustworthy as of a day ago.

Quote from: BitcoinSupremo on May 15, 2019, 04:37:42 PM

Another fact I want to add is that these new 3-4 or a bit more persons are even damaging users who have been here for much longer than them and have a history of trading goods worth thousand of dollars and yet they don't decide anything but these new users do, how fucked up is that ?

The experiment is indeed a failure and intervention will only increase in the following months.

Quote from: Foxpup on May 16, 2019, 01:41:35 AM

If theymos has to intervene for every little disagreement, the experiment is a failure.

Theymos should go back and pick his real friends as DT, people he interacts with regularly. It will reset the forum norms in line with their collective values and behavior.

That sounds like a government to me, which is exactly what Theymos wants to avoid.

Your statement is very funny, what do you think the actual DT is ? You think is not a government because everybody here I think agrees with me that DT is a government.

Few users dictate what will happen to one person account, while they maybe right in their decision lot of times they are in a lot more others wrong so in the end it isn't working as a system.

TheNewAnon135246

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Activity: 2198

Merit: 1989

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Quote from: actisstupidname on May 17, 2019, 04:48:00 PM

Quote from: Quickseller on May 15, 2019, 01:16:52 PM

I think theymos should go back to cultivating a good (default) trust list.

I don’t think the current experiment is a success.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 15, 2019, 01:55:05 PM

~I'm not going to do anything hasty or out of emotion with respect to my trust list until I can figure out what the hell is going on.
~
I really don't like the state bitcointalk is in right now.

Quote from: Thule on May 15, 2019, 03:30:31 PM

What a surprise these people who are talking the most about forgiveness trying to end that topic and gaslightning are the ones who kicked other DT members out.

Quote from: TECSHARE on May 15, 2019, 04:29:33 PM

Hhampuz had me included as of this morning, now suddenly I am excluded in spite of the fact I never said a word about Hhampuz during this whole blowout, which leads me to believe he is doing so because he has pressure being put on him from the "club of special people" he is so desperately trying to be a part of. I would have loved to hear his objections, but when I went to PM him about it, I found he had blocked me too like a coward in spite of our previous open line of amicable communication. I guess I will just have to take my discussion of it to the public then since he is to afraid to have a private conversation with people he found trustworthy as of a day ago.

Quote from: BitcoinSupremo on May 15, 2019, 04:37:42 PM

Another fact I want to add is that these new 3-4 or a bit more persons are even damaging users who have been here for much longer than them and have a history of trading goods worth thousand of dollars and yet they don't decide anything but these new users do, how fucked up is that ?

The experiment is indeed a failure and intervention will only increase in the following months.

Quote from: Foxpup on May 16, 2019, 01:41:35 AM

If theymos has to intervene for every little disagreement, the experiment is a failure.

Theymos should go back and pick his real friends as DT, people he interacts with regularly. It will reset the forum norms in line with their collective values and behavior.

That sounds like a government to me, which is exactly what Theymos wants to avoid.

actisstupidname

jr. member

Activity: 67

Merit: 5

Quote from: Quickseller on May 15, 2019, 01:16:52 PM

I think theymos should go back to cultivating a good (default) trust list.

I don’t think the current experiment is a success.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 15, 2019, 01:55:05 PM

~I'm not going to do anything hasty or out of emotion with respect to my trust list until I can figure out what the hell is going on.
~
I really don't like the state bitcointalk is in right now.

Quote from: Thule on May 15, 2019, 03:30:31 PM

What a surprise these people who are talking the most about forgiveness trying to end that topic and gaslightning are the ones who kicked other DT members out.

Quote from: TECSHARE on May 15, 2019, 04:29:33 PM

Hhampuz had me included as of this morning, now suddenly I am excluded in spite of the fact I never said a word about Hhampuz during this whole blowout, which leads me to believe he is doing so because he has pressure being put on him from the "club of special people" he is so desperately trying to be a part of. I would have loved to hear his objections, but when I went to PM him about it, I found he had blocked me too like a coward in spite of our previous open line of amicable communication. I guess I will just have to take my discussion of it to the public then since he is to afraid to have a private conversation with people he found trustworthy as of a day ago.

Quote from: BitcoinSupremo on May 15, 2019, 04:37:42 PM

Another fact I want to add is that these new 3-4 or a bit more persons are even damaging users who have been here for much longer than them and have a history of trading goods worth thousand of dollars and yet they don't decide anything but these new users do, how fucked up is that ?

The experiment is indeed a failure and intervention will only increase in the following months.

Quote from: Foxpup on May 16, 2019, 01:41:35 AM

If theymos has to intervene for every little disagreement, the experiment is a failure.

Theymos should go back and pick his real friends as DT, people he interacts with regularly. It will reset the forum norms in line with their collective values and behavior.

TECSHARE

legendary

Activity: 3318

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First Exclusion Ever

Quote from: Foxpup on May 16, 2019, 01:41:35 AM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 10:17:36 PM

It appears Foxpup is still a merit source and the merits to Vod have not been reversed as of this moment.

Correct. I (and other merit sources) don't always agree with theymos, but I don't believe he wants us to, either. The whole point of the merit system and DT voting is for the community to collectively decide for itself what actions are appropriate, without having to appoint theymos as our benevolent dictator. If theymos has to intervene for every little disagreement, the experiment is a failure.

If that is the case it was a failure the moment he introduced exclusions.

Foxpup

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Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 10:17:36 PM

It appears Foxpup is still a merit source and the merits to Vod have not been reversed as of this moment.

Correct. I (and other merit sources) don't always agree with theymos, but I don't believe he wants us to, either. The whole point of the merit system and DT voting is for the community to collectively decide for itself what actions are appropriate, without having to appoint theymos as our benevolent dictator. If theymos has to intervene for every little disagreement, the experiment is a failure.

Lauda

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Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: eddie13 on May 15, 2019, 04:13:19 PM

I was at 4 DT1 inclusions until just recently and am now down to just 1... Hmmmmmm...

Which is quite generous given your behavior.

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 10:48:43 PM

I've already explained my main motivation, and have quoted theymos to justify it. If you really think that maintaining my income stream from the signature that I am wearing has anything to do with this, you must think I am really hard up. After all, I am not even posting anywhere near the maximum of 55 posts a week for this signature. Furthermore, I am certain that if HHampuz gave me the boot, there are plenty of other signature campaigns that I could easily join.

That's the kind of people that you're up against. Anything will be used against you for not siding with them*. Mr. Snowfucker will not kick you out of the campaign regardless if you agree or disagree with him any matters. A quite cancerous group they are indeed.

suchmoon

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Merit: 8909

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Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 10:00:28 PM

Most important thing you should have taken away from theymos' post. You think in his notes he put these users on the good boy/girl side of his list?
To each their own I guess.

Why do you care what's in his notes. Maybe he's got a 2-inch binder on each of us. Maybe he just said that to yank the chain.

I understand the need to look up to theymos for some guidance on trust/merit/etc but you guys are taking this into Maoism territory here by interpreting words that perhaps are just regular words without any hidden meaning. He's anarcho-libertarian or whatever, he wants us to use our judgement with as little supervision as possible but we're failing miserably so far.

bones261

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Activity: 1806

Merit: 1828

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 10:27:24 PM

Hey bones261 no worries at all.. I definitely know who's side I'd take in these kinds of situations if I were you. Never wanna bite the hand that feeds you.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50345864

I've already explained my main motivation, and have quoted theymos to justify it. If you really think that maintaining my income stream from the signature that I am wearing has anything to do with this, you must think I am really hard up. After all, I am not even posting anywhere near the maximum of 55 posts a week for this signature. Furthermore, I am certain that if HHampuz gave me the boot, there are plenty of other signature campaigns that I could easily join.

teeGUMES

legendary

Activity: 1253

Merit: 1203

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 10:17:36 PM

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 10:00:28 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory. Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm. All other complaints about merit should be brought up either by PM or the open forum, and if theymos feels it's abuse, he may reverse them and if it involves a merit source, give them the boot. However, to each their own, I guess.

"I added to my notes the fact that those users merited such a post. Meriting it is saying basically that we need more posts like this on the forum, and we do not need more posts like this on the forum."

Most important thing you should have taken away from theymos' post. You think in his notes he put these users on the good boy/girl side of his list?
To each their own I guess.

However, it appears that the only action theymos took in this case was making a mental note and to clarify what merit giving should be about. It appears Foxpup is still a merit source and the merits to Vod have not been reversed as of this moment. Therefore, I am going to go by the words that theymos wrote in response to me, months ago.

Hey bones261 no worries at all.. I definitely know who's side I'd take in these kinds of situations if I were you. Never wanna bite the hand that feeds you.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50345864

bones261

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Activity: 1806

Merit: 1828

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 10:00:28 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory. Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm. All other complaints about merit should be brought up either by PM or the open forum, and if theymos feels it's abuse, he may reverse them and if it involves a merit source, give them the boot. However, to each their own, I guess.

"I added to my notes the fact that those users merited such a post. Meriting it is saying basically that we need more posts like this on the forum, and we do not need more posts like this on the forum."

Most important thing you should have taken away from theymos' post. You think in his notes he put these users on the good boy/girl side of his list?
To each their own I guess.

However, it appears that the only action theymos took in this case was making a mental note and to clarify what merit giving should be about. It appears Foxpup is still a merit source and the merits to Vod have not been reversed as of this moment. Therefore, I am going to go by the words that theymos wrote in response to me, months ago.

teeGUMES

legendary

Activity: 1253

Merit: 1203

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 09:36:06 PM

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 05:50:12 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 05:37:21 PM

-snip-

I do not think it was right for teeGUMES to tag the merit givers to sound the alarm on Vod's behavior. Although teegumes has removed the red trust, I am not removing my exclusion. Quite frankly, my exclusion has nothing to do with the red trust he had left for Vod.

This is fine I do not fault you for standing up for something you believe to be right. Many times throughout the countless threads here I have stated that had there been another way of achieving this same effect, I would have used it. If as a merit source you believe that one day in the future you think you'll throw some of your merit down on a public doxx to expend your source then our paths will probably cross again.

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory. Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm. All other complaints about merit should be brought up either by PM or the open forum, and if theymos feels it's abuse, he may reverse them and if it involves a merit source, give them the boot. However, to each their own, I guess.

"I added to my notes the fact that those users merited such a post. Meriting it is saying basically that we need more posts like this on the forum, and we do not need more posts like this on the forum."

Most important thing you should have taken away from theymos' post. You think in his notes he put these users on the good boy/girl side of his list?
To each their own I guess.

bones261

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1828

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 05:50:12 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 05:37:21 PM

-snip-

I do not think it was right for teeGUMES to tag the merit givers to sound the alarm on Vod's behavior. Although teegumes has removed the red trust, I am not removing my exclusion. Quite frankly, my exclusion has nothing to do with the red trust he had left for Vod.

This is fine I do not fault you for standing up for something you believe to be right. Many times throughout the countless threads here I have stated that had there been another way of achieving this same effect, I would have used it. If as a merit source you believe that one day in the future you think you'll throw some of your merit down on a public doxx to expend your source then our paths will probably cross again.

Let's just hope for all the users that give out merit(merit sources and the general population alike) that other DT1 and DT2 members don't take your precedent and construe it to mean that perhaps they can go ahead and red trust meriters if they merit other types of posts that the DT member finds unsavory. Personally, I think red trust for merit should only be done for selling/buying merit or using it to rank up an account farm. All other complaints about merit should be brought up either by PM or the open forum, and if theymos feels it's abuse, he may reverse them and if it involves a merit source, give them the boot. However, to each their own, I guess.

suchmoon

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Activity: 3654

Merit: 8909

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Quote from: xolxol on May 15, 2019, 07:10:06 PM

look at fucking suchmoon,he has given you red trust then changed it to neutral he doesnt want people to get tagged by giving merits but if the normal people abuses the merit system he wont allow, a total coward supporting an idiot colleague.I respect you teeGUMES more by his actions.

I have never given red trust for teeGUMES. I have excluded him for reasons not directly related to Vod and explained multiple times, including by bones261 above. BTW teeGUMES is back in DT1 which is hopefully a net positive for the forum but my personal opinion is unchanged.

I guess it's too much to ask for excrement like you to get your facts straight so carry on.

Foxpup

legendary

Activity: 4522

Merit: 3183

Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023

I excluded Rmcdermott927 not specifically for tagging Vod, but for his overly hysterical justification for it which makes me question his judgement in other cases, not just this one. I didn't exclude any of the others, at least not for this drama.

Quote from: Thule on May 15, 2019, 03:55:36 PM

It's not CH.Get a brain and stop acting like an idiot

Stop protesting too much, then. If you wanted people to know it's you, you'd have used your main account.

xolxol

member

Activity: 241

Merit: 98

Quote from: teeGUMES on May 15, 2019, 05:50:12 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 15, 2019, 05:37:21 PM

-snip-

I do not think it was right for teeGUMES to tag the merit givers to sound the alarm on Vod's behavior. Although teegumes has removed the red trust, I am not removing my exclusion. Quite frankly, my exclusion has nothing to do with the red trust he had left for Vod.

This is fine I do not fault you for standing up for something you believe to be right. Many times throughout the countless threads here I have stated that had there been another way of achieving this same effect, I would have used it. If as a merit source you believe that one day in the future you think you'll throw some of your merit down on a public doxx to expend your source then our paths will probably cross again.

look at fucking suchmoon,he has given you red trust then changed it to neutral he doesnt want people to get tagged by giving merits but if the normal people abuses the merit system he wont allow, a total coward supporting an idiot colleague.I respect you teeGUMES more by his actions.

Topic: Mighty DTs - no manipulation LOL | Are you okay theymos? (Read 1204 times)