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Topic: Miner cartel, Bankster cartel, or an altcoin? Your choice? - page 12. (Read 33250 times)

sr. member
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I must be frank because we are searching for the truth here, not just for back slaps. I'm confident that frankness is what you want from me.

The highest perspective, as I understand, is to see that society is looking for a stable metric for value.  This would be optimal to have, its a great technology.

That is really not difficult.  The prostitute fuck is a stable metric of value.

You can express all market value as an amount of  "one good prostitute half hour".  Something that is not going to be modified a lot by technology, that has millennia-long tradition, of which demand and offer has always been more or less stable over the ages.

I think that this is a very stable measure of value.

Disagree. That could be manipulated with mass media, forced deprivation, "education", etc..

Nah.  Has been tried for millennia.  The oldest profession.  Older than gold !

The empirical evidence proves you are absolutely incorrect. I read an account of the war in Serbia and the value of prostitution was reduced to below the value of a cigarette or a single unused bullet.

Also an average value for an economic good is meaningless. For example, I can get prostitution for a negative cost (where they pay me!), because I know how to pull the levers of a woman's hindbrain. Even a prostitute has utility for something she can't get easily.

I also think that you give way, way too much value to knowledge (technical/scientific that is).  It is stuff in over-production, and it is less and less needed.

Don't conflate noise with knowledge.

More precisely, the difference between noise and information is the resonance of the parties participating. What is noise to one person, can be information to another.

(Btw, this is how I will completely deconstruct and destroy your faith in Kurzweil's Singularity but again not now...)

The markets are held by those that possess resources (minerals, water, sunshine, clean air, land, ...) and certification rights without which you cannot bring anything legally to the market.

There you go again repeating our debate about Kurzweil's Singularity.

You are so stuck on atoms being heavy. But you entirely miss the fact that relatively speaking they are asymptotically massless. And this absolutely required mathematically else we could not exist in multiple parallel universes, and I already explained why without parallel universes we wouldn't exist at all. But please don't take me off onto this tangent. You tend to go off into obtuse math and physics which require significant verbiage (and far reaching assimilation of many fields of science) to unravel your mistakes and I don't have time for that tit-for-tat right now.

As Einstein said, our existence is nothing but an elaborate illusion constructed in our mind. Even you admitted you believe we never die because we never really existed in any absolute sense.

But for every needed idea, there are 50 starving engineers waiting to sell their services for a sandwich.  This was totally different 30 years ago.  The lack of need of good knowledge in the economy is visible in the total degradation of scientific education, without any economic impact.  In other words, 30 years ago, we still needed engineers and scientists - now we don't.  Or almost not.

What do you expect when you live in a socialistic hell where the government has corrupted all indicators of value so what the engineers train to be is entirely useless. I am creating tremendous value (look in past day I created $millions of value for those who listened to me and bought Litecoin on the pullback to $6), because I didn't listen to any sycophantic socialistic circle jerk echo chamber. I ran away from academia.

The government is not capable of preventing those who are willing to fight to be relevant. It are those who are unwilling to trade a little safety, for renewing the tree of liberty that end up enslaved. Hey it is their choice. Don't use that incorrect logic to say that the knowledge age is BS. Their EU socialist hell is BS!!! Why they haven't left it already only they know. It obviously makes them mentally ill in sense of misjudging the reality in this case. You are still super smart (probably smarter than me), but you are limited by something which keeps you stuck on measuring reality using a metric which is an entirely manipulated socialistic hell.

What you are essentially admitting is that science and knowledge are not created in Ivory Cathedrals. They are created in messy, chaotic Bazaars.

Live in a socialistic hell and attend Ivy League schools, then end up a useless xerox copy of some top-down driven curriculum and nonsense in academia.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
The highest perspective, as I understand, is to see that society is looking for a stable metric for value.  This would be optimal to have, its a great technology.

That is really not difficult.  The prostitute fuck is a stable metric of value.

You can express all market value as an amount of  "one good prostitute half hour".  Something that is not going to be modified a lot by technology, that has millennia-long tradition, of which demand and offer has always been more or less stable over the ages.

I think that this is a very stable measure of value.

Disagree. That could be manipulated with mass media, forced deprivation, "education", etc..


Nah.  Has been tried for millennia.  The oldest profession.  Older than gold !

I also think that you give way, way too much value to knowledge (technical/scientific that is).  It is stuff in over-production, and it is less and less needed.

The markets are held by those that possess resources (minerals, water, sunshine, clean air, land, ...) and certification rights without which you cannot bring anything legally to the market.  Imposed certification is a way to keep small competitors out of the market, have permissioned markets limited to an oligarchy in agreement with lawmakers.  Knowledge is not much needed in this domain.  Somewhat, still, but less and less.  But for every needed idea, there are 50 starving engineers waiting to sell their services for a sandwich.  This was totally different 30 years ago.  The lack of need of good knowledge in the economy is visible in the total degradation of scientific education, without any economic impact.  In other words, 30 years ago, we still needed engineers and scientists - now we don't.  Or almost not.

The only industry where this doesn't seem to be the case is entertainment, but that's a very meme-controlled industry which serves as a vector for crowd manipulation.  Panis et circenses.  
hero member
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sr. member
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Merit: 265
The highest perspective, as I understand, is to see that society is looking for a stable metric for value.  This would be optimal to have, its a great technology.

That is really not difficult.  The prostitute fuck is a stable metric of value.

You can express all market value as an amount of  "one good prostitute half hour".  Something that is not going to be modified a lot by technology, that has millennia-long tradition, of which demand and offer has always been more or less stable over the ages.

I think that this is a very stable measure of value.

Disagree. That could be manipulated with mass media, forced deprivation, "education", etc..

The other one is the Big Mac, but it has no historical perspective.

Again this could be manipulated both from the demand side and the supply of raw ingredients side.

At McDonalds, burgers are not printed, and not served by robots.  They are essentially fungible labour.

The labor will be automated. All tangible replicated goods will decline asymptotically towards 0 relative value. That is what my Rise of Knowledge, Demise of Finance points out. Yeah atoms are heavily but they don't get heavier. Relative value will decline (the absolute value will always have mass but that is irrelevant as I had pointed about to Eric Raymond on his blog, c.f. the Dark Enlightenment thread).


There are no stable values in a relativistic universe. But this is a good thing, otherwise we would not exist because the past and the future would collapse into indistinguishable (the light cones of relativity would overlap) if there could be any absolute reference point because relativism wouldn't exist.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Nash wrote a paper that provides a model for explaining that the Inverse Commons is where the participants have utility to exchange non-fungible knowledge on this common territory, e.g. contributing source code and bug fixes to an open source repository or simply sharing our ideas here on this forum. There is a significant amount of knowledge value being exchanged here today but none of us are directly paying each other for our discussions. For example, we gain reputation and stature for being candid, lucid, and genuine. We might be able to monetize that reputation (e.g. launch an ICO or what have you, although I've already stated I would not do that), but it is more valuable for us to use it motivate others to exchange knowledge to produce more innovations/insights together via synergy.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
One more post trying to get Bitcoiners to wake up to reality:

While some of you waste your time trying to figure out what all the irrelevant noise of signaling on Bitcoin doesn't mean, the reality is something that will require re-orienting your thinking.

Bitcoin will never scale without Litecoin. No significant protocol changes will ever be made to Bitcoin. Bitcoiners need to get this nailed into their thick skulls. Read the following:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.18424568

Bitcoin will achieve maximum value by enabling SegWit on Litecoin. There is no other option going forward. The above linked post explains why in detail.

Bitcoin was designed by Satoshi such that the vested interests would be that no one can change the protocol. No change is ever coming to Bitcoin. The sooner you realize this, the sooner we can get unstuck from the mud. Those of you who continue to facilitate this illusion of change coming to Bitcoin's protocol are obstacles in the way of progress.

Altcoins are good competitors to Bitcoin and I think it just needs it.

Incorrect. Most of the speculation value from altcoins ends up in BTC, not in the altcoins. Altcoins are complementary to BTC. The reason BTC percentage of market cap is diving lately is because Bitcoiners are trying to force protocol changes to Bitcoin, instead of doing it on Litecoin, and so no progress is being made at all. Stuck in the mud.

Bitcoiners need to re-orient their thinking. Read my prior post and click the link and read more.



Bitcoin will never scale without Litecoin. No significant protocol changes will ever be made to Bitcoin. Bitcoiners need to get this nailed into their thick skulls. Read the following:

Bitcoin will achieve maximum value by enabling SegWit on Litecoin. There is no other option going forward. The above linked post explains why in detail.

How would this be possible without some type of protocol change that allows stuff such as atomic swaps? Without that the chains are stuck as separate entities.

You apparently don't understand finance. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

You guys don't read all of my posts, thus you force me to post copies of my posts all over the place:

Once I realized Bitcoin is never going to allow any major changes to its protocol, then I started to think about what would Blockstream do. That is when I was ripe for realizing what the LTC spike in price is probably about. Of course most of the Bitcoiners are stuck on this concept that Bitcoin has to scale, which I have realized is entirely unnecessary (and you still need to understand this) because Litecoin can scale yet Bitcoin will still capture the lion's share of the value of the scaling of Litecoin.

I explained why days ago. But y'all don't pay attention.

Any way, I don't mind providing you the link above.

Bitcoin is a currency not money.

Incorrect. You don't understand finance. The tail doesn't wag the dog. Read this.

Bitcoin is not a medium-of-exchange. It is a unit-of-account and a store-of-value. Litecoin will be the medium-of-exchange. Small blocks will make Bitcoin for settlement amongst power brokers of finance.



Well, at some point, they need to leave the middle ground and make a decision. I think it will be better if this will made as soon as possible. People are getting tired because of these and it will not be healthy if they will drag this for so long. Or maybe, they are just playing with both BU and SegWit while at the end of the day, nothing will happen?  Roll Eyes

There will never be a middle ground.

Correct, nothing will ever change on Bitcoin. But Litecoin...

Core hasn't been keeping the system updated, and their refusal of further updates and generally increasing the Block size is alarming and drives support away. The bitcoin unlimited bound failure doesn't lift any responsibility away from the core devs..

Entirely incorrect.

Bitcoin will never be updated and doesn't need to be updated.

Please read my posts in this thread and click the links do some extensive reading and thinking. You will learn about the absolute importance of Litecoin for Bitcoin's future.

Until you re-orient your thinking to the reality, you will be hopelessly confused.

No disrespect intended. I am trying to guide you to the truth, but you have to be willing to click and read a lot.

Core hasn't been keeping the system updated,

There's a very steady stream of updates from Core. They've also provided the protocol change that they think is best. It's sitting there waiting to be used right now.

Waiting to be used on Litecoin. Never will be activated on Bitcoin. Satoshi designed the game theory of Bitcoin so that the vested interests would never be able to agree on modifying the protocol. Otherwise Bitcoin would have no value as power broker money. Please learn that the tail does not wag the dog in finance. Go read please.



This is bouncing up and down, but slowly moving upwards. It just exceeded 59% for the first time:

http://litecoinblockhalf.com/segwit.php

It is inevitable. The hard-headed who are late are going to be butt-hurt and backsplaining.
hero member
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I would think that, even though some optimisation happens, yes.  Because essentially, it is fungible, relatively uneducated labour (life time of people, doesn't change much over time) and a relatively constant demand (you won't eat 20 times more Big Macs because they become 20 times cheaper).  So I would think that the fraction of life time sacrificed to make a big mac over the pleasure to eat a big mac keeps its "true market value" more or less constant.


Not sure i understand, are you including robots and or food printing machines in this?

At McDonalds, burgers are not printed, and not served by robots.  They are essentially fungible labour.
sr. member
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sr. member
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I would think that, even though some optimisation happens, yes.  Because essentially, it is fungible, relatively uneducated labour (life time of people, doesn't change much over time) and a relatively constant demand (you won't eat 20 times more Big Macs because they become 20 times cheaper).  So I would think that the fraction of life time sacrificed to make a big mac over the pleasure to eat a big mac keeps its "true market value" more or less constant.


Not sure i understand, are you including robots and or food printing machines in this?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
is that a suggestion that big macs don't get cheaper to produce over time?

I would think that, even though some optimisation happens, yes.  Because essentially, it is fungible, relatively uneducated labour (life time of people, doesn't change much over time) and a relatively constant demand (you won't eat 20 times more Big Macs because they become 20 times cheaper).  So I would think that the fraction of life time sacrificed to make a big mac over the pleasure to eat a big mac keeps its "true market value" more or less constant.

hero member
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sr. member
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Merit: 251
is that a suggestion that big macs don't get cheaper to produce over time?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
The highest perspective, as I understand, is to see that society is looking for a stable metric for value.  This would be optimal to have, its a great technology.

That is really not difficult.  The prostitute fuck is a stable metric of value.

You can express all market value as an amount of  "one good prostitute half hour".  Something that is not going to be modified a lot by technology, that has millennia-long tradition, of which demand and offer has always been more or less stable over the ages.

I think that this is a very stable measure of value.

The other one is the Big Mac, but it has no historical perspective.

legendary
Activity: 2044
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No asymptotic ideal money means that one money that follows some principles that allow for higher transfer utility will be accepted by yhe market but we will never reach the perfect money because you cant have perfectly stable and infinite transfer utility and thus you will get better versions over time in that if one is a paradaigm shift over another it may have a chance at being a better asymptotically ideal money. Fiat with rate targeting replaced gold standard and we posit cryptocurrency with stable supply may be a big enough shift to create that paradaign shift because it removes greed of central bankers. I think he meant ideal would be a rate targetted money based on an auditable economic metric but that may not be possible without greedy centralized entities.
sr. member
Activity: 336
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My understanding of Nash's mathematical theory of ideal money is that if we have unit-of-account and store-of-value for reserves (but not necessarily a medium-of-exchange!) which has a non-manipulable and predictable rate of change of its supply, then that money can form the basis of sound financial systems which correctly value the activities in the economy and thus don't create distortions which lead to for example the failure of private fractional reserve banking, depressions, and misallocation of economic resources and capital.

So this is why the primary value of Bitcoin is the inability to change its protocol. If Bitcoin's protocol can be changed by anyone, then it is no longer a reliable metric in Nash's mathematical scheme.

So Satoshi tried to design a monetary system which would meet the requirements of Nash's ideal money scheme. Because in theory this can bring great benefits to society, such as destroying all the fiat systems, corrupt governments and destroying the inherently correct concept of socialism and democracy. These justifications have been explained in more detail upthread (and in extensive detail in my archives on BCT), so I won't repeat that information.

But as I already explained upthread, the immutability of PoW only exists for the token (blockchain) which has the greatest value, because the finance tail doesn't wag the dog. I explained upthread that whales on a higher valued blockchain can potentially manipulate a lowered valued altcoin as is the case ongoing now with Litecoin wherein they are able to change the protocol.

I also explained upthread how (using MPEx as an example) finance always accumulates to the one with the most reserves, i.e. finance is inherently a winner-take-all construct. It is a gravitational system that sucks everything into itself until it is the entire economy and then it self-destructs. Thus Nash's ideal money can't exist in reality with finance.

Nash wanted an asymptotic solution wherein the number of stable currencies could be unbounded and thus no one could ever gain sufficient omniscient information in order to winner-take-all the financial system. Unfortunately Bitcoin as the center of the financial universe as the only stable currency is of course an abomination and not at all what Nash would have wanted. (Note altcoins are not stable currencies because they are not immutable.) Because of course I explained already upthread how over time there will end up with one whale who has monopolized the Bitcoin economy and thus can change the protocol at-will. This is why I say Bitcoin is the NWO system and was probably created by a think tank funded by an elite globalist such as Rothschild.

Nash required two incongruent things. He wanted a metric to be stable so the (rest of the) financial system could be measured against it, yet he also needed that metric to be absolute (as in its veracity/protocol not being relative to anything which could be controlled or gamed). There are no absolutes in our universe. We live in a relativistic universe which is only constructed from relative perspectives. None of us can even communicate our present to everyone and we can't even communicate our histories incontrovertibly because there is no way to prove an event happened other than by the corroboration of the memories of others who witnessed it (which is not a total ordering thus isn't incontrovertible). For example (but this is by no means the main point of what I am trying to explain here), this weakness in fungible money is why money requires a total ordering consensus so as to order the transactions globally to insure a double-spend wasn't attempted some where else in the universe.

I wrote as @anonymous:

O/T assigned a descriptive model where nodes or their connections are assumed to have unequal value without any model for why they do. Eric posited a generative model wherein communication has a space-time frictional cost. Subsequent commentary has pointed out that the more generalized generative model is that networking (in the generalized conceptualization of communication and/or group formation) has a myriad of genres of opportunity cost (e.g. even political opportunity cost in cooperative games theory), so this can account for preferences in group formation which may in some cases be independent of physical transport costs.

Something else occurred to me while reading the O/T paper before reading Robert Willis's thoughts, and I think combining the opportunity cost generalization with the following insight might model his point. Note that if the possible connections between nodes are limited by opportunity cost weighted compatibility of groups of nodes, then we can approximate a model of the network as connections between groups (aka clusters) of nodes. In this case, the equations for relative value of network mergers changes such that it is possible for the value proposition to invert between small and larger networks, if the larger network has fewer groupings (on an opportunity cost potential connections weighted basis). O/T mentioned clusters but in the context of their descriptive model of assumed unequal value. The key point of opportunity cost is that value is relativistic to the observer. The highly relativistic model is capable of higher-order effects such as those described by Robert Willis. Demographics matter.

I want to investigate whether Verlinde's entropic force emergent information based gravitation model is applicable and perhaps a generative mathematical foundation.

So I believe what Nash worked out in his mind mathematically was that in some hypothetical asymptotic case wherein there are an unbounded number of stable, non-manipulable currencies, then it would not be possible for any player in the system to always win just because he/she held the most reserves, because that player would lack information about whether he/she held the most powerful basket of reserves, so it would thus not be a power vacuum winner-take-all outcome in the theoretical asymptotic case. So Nash was correct that in the asymptotic case, his ideal money is stable, but the problem is that such an asymptotic case isn't known to exist nor does anyone know how to make it come into existence. Even Satoshi's design requires Bitcoin to be the stable currency with the highest value otherwise as I had explained, its immutability is not assured by the game theory.

Precisely four years ago, I wrote Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch, and I see now that I was entirely correct. Bitcoin is an abomination of Nash's ideal money scheme. Its end game is one globalist who controls everything. One omnipotent whale who stomps on all life. The NWO-666 outcome. Sorry I can't stand by idle and let that happen! Four years ago, I set out to try to figure out how to fix this problem. I've been working incessantly ever since on this in spite of my disseminated Tuberculosis illness (which I am now undergoing treatment to cure hopefully).

But along my journey of thinking about money every since I got interested in gold in 2006 because by late 2005 I could already see in my mind that a global crisis of debt and socialism was ahead in the real world, I ended up making a discovery and writing it down some time in the period between 2011 and 2013. That essay was Rise of Knowledge, Demise of Finance.

The generative essence of that discovery was that knowledge can't be financed, because unlike manual labor, knowledge production is not fungible. Read the essay I wrote for more explanation.

Also Eric S. Raymond had discovered Linus' Law "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" when he wrote the seminal The Cathedral and the Bazaar which launched the open source revolution and Eric had invented the term "open source" preferring it over Richard Stallman's "free software". Eric followed that up with the explanation of open source economics models in the Magic Cauldron wherein he explained the opposite of a Tragedy-of-the-Commons is an Inverse Commons which is what open source is.

So what I had figured out that finance would die because the entire point of money is an information system which routes perception of value to those who help the society produce the most. Fungible money worked during the tangible ages (agriculture and industrial) because society needed to aggregate large amounts of capital (because economies-of-scale were paramount in agriculture and industry) and labor was fungible (i.e. replaceable) and thus finance was useful for maximizing production. Companies aggregate fungible resources and economies-of-scale to gain a transactional cost advantage to solve the coordination problem of the Tragedy-of-the-Commons of uncoordinated resources per the Theory of the Firm (and such transactional cost advantages decline in the knowledge age due to technological changes which enable more diverse production with lower economies-of-scale and Inverse Commons coordination). Although this system carried with it huge social problems because laborers had no pricing power unless they could restrict membership (e.g. unions) or otherwise use the government to try to redistribute wealth (or do birth control eugenics to lower their competition with each other). In other words, the broken concepts such as democracy and socialism were ramifications of the fact that labor was too fungible (replaceable) and finance was cardinal. That is why so many hate capitalism, but they don't understand that the fledgling knowledge age (which is already underway!) will change everything to a meritocracy and destroy finance and money.

So we tie all this together and note that we increasingly are exchanging our knowledge and doing knowledge creation in open source Inverse Commons, especially those who produce the most in the new economy of the knowledge age. Eric Raymond had eloquently pointed out that the Inverse Commons of open source is the only known positive scaling law of engineering. And it applies to almost any field of knowledge creation that applies the open source principle (such as what we doing right now here by discussing a new concept and peer reviewing it here).

So I figured out that if I could tie the knowledge production within Inverse Commons to exchange of a fungible monetary unit, I could bridge the gap between where we are now and where we are headed. And that each time some fungible money would be exchanged in this system I designed, then the value of the fungible money would not be in exchange for the knowledge but rather in exchange for the service provided to host the knowledge. Then the fungible portion of exchange would only be a small fraction of the non-fungible value created by the activity. This was a very clever and insightful and essential discovery that I made!

So I had figured out a way to make new blockchain currency which would scale out larger than Bitcoin and thus defeat it while also itself not being vulnerable to manipulation because the fungible finance portion of the economy would orders-of-magnitude inferior in relative value to the knowledge portion. In other words, no one could ever monopolize it.

Then I combined that with a clever consensus algorithm which doesn't require PoW. And voila I named the unpublished design the Bitcoin Killer.

In other words, it achieves Nash's asymptotic ideal money by turning a person's brain into their non-fungible money (the unbounded number of brains is the asymptotic domain) and leverages that huge value creation in order to make the associated fungible token more demanded than Bitcoin. The economy shifts from a predominately monetary one into a predominately reputation and gift culture, wherein we recognize value by accomplishments and not by monetary digits.

Those parasite high finance and Wallstreet thugs have to find a new vocation and actually work together in society or become irrelevant.

I rather like my discovery. I think you will too if I am correct.
sr. member
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I don't believe in a "bankster cartel".

I know the theory about the supposed "Blockstream conspiration" - "banksters want to harm Bitcoin, so they would like it to stay small and highly dependant on centralized payment processors". But I don't think they would have any success with such a dumb strategy, as every altcoin could replace BTC relatively fast and we have also already a real contender (Ethereum) that is focusing on on chain scaling.

Nobody has published a way to scale on chain. Ethereum hasn't either. I haven't published yet.

The currently only known way to scale is centralization (all altcoins that claim to scale accomplish it via centralization, even if they've tried to obfuscate that fact).

The bankster cartel was pushing to get off chain enabled on Bitcoin, but as it turns out Satoshi designed a game theory that makes it impossible to fork Bitcoin as I explained in my prior posts upthread (and credit to @dinofelis for first stating and predicting this principle). But apparently DTCC and Core have a plan B prepared which is the do the scaling on Litecoin. And I have explained upthread why that will be good for Bitcoin. There is no reason to settle the LN channels on Bitcoin. So it will happen on Litecoin instead. The bankster cartel will get what they want which is private fractional reserve banking on LN, and the Bitcoin whales and miners will get what they want which is small blocks and the inability to fork Bitcoin, so that Bitcoin remains a non-manipulated stable money according to Nash's theory of ideal money and the benefits that would bring onto society such as economically sound private fractional reserve banking.

Note LN doesn't scale up without centralized hubs which means private fractional reserve banking. @dinofelis explained that well upthread. I had also explained some of the LN issues in the past.

You really need to see the big picture. The miners and whales in Bitcoin are a benevolent cartel but in an Inverse Commons (as opposed to a Tragedy of the Commons) in that they can't change anything for the worse, yet they will act as a cartel to defend the protocol either unified defense or threats of mutual self-destruction. Because they are mutually locked into defending Bitcoin's protocol lest they lead to mutual self-destruction as I explained upthread. As I explained upthread, Bitcoin's game theory equilibrium depends on it remaining the most stable and largest fulcrum of value in this new fiat-less economy, thus it doesn't fulfill Nash's asymptotic ideal money because as I had already explained, the concentration of wealth in any finance system of fungible money will trend to winner-take-all which is thus eventually destroys Bitcoin's equilibrium when one whale becomes omnipotent in Bitcoin so Bitcoin will lose the protection of mutual self-destruction of whales who attempt to take control over the protocol (and once that happens then it is the NWO-666 outcome which will be the ultimate outcome of Bitcoin where all the capital gets concentrated on one hill in Jerusalem).

In the case of miners, things are not so clear - I think there may be mining pools conspiring to maximize profit regarding transaction fees.

That is by design and part of the clever game theory Satoshi designed.

I think the current stalemate is simply because of stubbornness and short-sighted thinking on both sides. There might be some interest conflict behind, but I'm sure if it was only that it could be solved with a solution similar to the Roundtable Consensus.

Polarization, simply, is en vogue now.

No it is by design of Satoshi. And a very good thing. And it was intentionally designed that way.



If it's done with Litecoins it'll be done with bitcoins.

Incorrect. <--- the entire thread should be digested

There will be no forks on Bitcoin, other than non-contentious (especially emergency) bug fixes that all relevant economic players in the system agree on wholeheartedly.

Satoshi designed the game theory of Bitcoin's political-economics such that it's protocol can't be upgraded so that it can't be manipulated.
sr. member
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Ok, then what shall we do?

Buy moooore

Lol. Well humans are quite resourceful. And smart people are working on it. So my stance is to stay tuned (and of course so you can buy Moore). I think it may be possible to get closer to Nash's ideal than where I think Bitcoin puts us. I want to try to reply to @traincarswreck on this point.
sr. member
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Oh, well, that is still 100 years away Smiley  Bitcoin most probably won't exist any more then.
And in any case, no tail emission is a disaster if you need to reward people.  I think no inflation is OK, but in a voluntary system only.
The argument for or against a deflationary or inflationary money seems to be largely perspective and context.  So often different people with didn't perspectives and or speaking to or from different contexts will battle it out basically semantically.

The highest perspective, as I understand, is to see that society is looking for a stable metric for value.  This would be optimal to have, its a great technology.

From this perspective inflation is not a good thing because you are literally talking about a measuring device which changes "length".  

If we don't have such a perfectly stable measuring device then the competition between different currencies has a different meaning.  If you do introduce that device then the concept of inflation becomes non-nonsensical, irrational, and damaging.
sr. member
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Fungible money:  When one cannot determine any difference between instances of money.  For example, we each have a dollar bill, we swap and no one can tell.  But, if the serial numbers were recorded then it can be determined which bill is which.  A clean crisp new bill is worth more than an old raggedy bill in some/many places.

Bitcoin is an interesting mixture of really good fungibility and not even close to fungible.  If a miner takes care then they can create a portion of Bitcoin pretty much out of thin air with virtually no traceability; without care in theory it can be traced.  Each time bitcoins are transacted they tend to become more and more traceable.

I heard once that if you have a US $100 bill in your possession it is very likely to have been used in an illegal drug transaction.  In fact, it is quite likely to have trace amounts of cocaine on it.  I have not confirmed this but it sounds plausible.  If so then arguably you are in possession of something that endangers you.  It would behoove you to wash such clean.

Some altcoins are superior to Bitcoin in terms of fungibility, although they might come with other issues.
I need INB to explain their own understanding/relevance.

All the above I understand to some extent.  I'm thinking there must be an admitting of a social factor through.  The usd example shows this.  If people are willing to ignore such issues (being used for crime etc.) then there is not really a problem.
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