Topic: Miners have full control of Bitcoin price. Nobody can trust a system like this. (Read 1515 times)
November 14, 2017, 04:05:51 AM
It's all in percents. 1% from 100$ is 1$ and 1% from 1 million is 10000$. If you have a lot, it's much easier to get more. Whatever system you setup, people with a lot of funds will be able to turn it to their own interest.
November 14, 2017, 03:18:38 AM
POS changes everything.
1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
Shares of Apple Inc. is PoS system. How many ordinary ppl they make richer and how much? And how many Investments Funds, banks earn millions on them?
Ask guess who will loose their money if Apple will go down?
Actual crypto PoS systems let earn big money to exchanges, because they hold many coins in their wallets. And very low income for others.
I suppose you have many BTC already, therefore you want to get higher price + increase in PoS, thats good, but nothing with the system itself. And why we care about forks?
Anybody can do any fork from any coin. Just collect some ppl to keep network alive and go on. Problem is that ppl are greedy and don't care just about income
November 13, 2017, 07:00:11 AM
Can't believe couple of mine farm could manipulate BCH price up to 8 billion dollar volume, this is just insane. I think it was show off the power miner have to tell the bitcoin people, if you mess with us, we will mess with you.
Miners dump, they don't pump, they follow the path of least resistance for more cash. Charlatan criminals pump the price and turn gullible people into shitcoin bag holders. November 12, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
Can't believe couple of mine farm could manipulate BCH price up to 8 billion dollar volume, this is just insane. I think it was show off the power miner have to tell the bitcoin people, if you mess with us, we will mess with you.
November 12, 2017, 10:36:20 PM
~ the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. ~
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Proof of Stake is the exact definition of "the rich getting richer", it is way too obvious. the poor who has 1 coin gets practically nothing from staking, but the rich who has millions of coins will get a lot of reward for free, or just because he is rich.
that i don't consider a fair distribution. in PoW at least you have to "work" for it.
and miners don't "control" the price, you are exaggerating their power. they affected things a lot but they can not control it. the market does and all the manipulators, and in fact miners are mostly following the money meaning the pump of BCH and then when it is dumped they will come back to bitcoin.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
the act of dumping causes the crash not how many times you can or can not dump it. you have some tokens and some money and with them you manipulate the market. PoW, PoS, Po- doesn't change that.
and the rich who has gotten richer for free from the PoS will have a lot more free money to dump than the worker in PoW who has worked for it and has to pay the bills and because of that has to sell regularly not accumulate the PoS to dump at once.
November 12, 2017, 09:55:18 PM
Truth is both PoW and PoS, or even PoC for that matter, fail to foster a true decentralized economy. We're all at the same place we were in 1985 with the internet. We're a fair way away from wrapping our collective heads around decentralized blockchain economy.
November 12, 2017, 09:39:43 PM
all this is just a game of someone and they want bitcoin to fall so they do the setting with a big fee so when there is a transaction with a small fee it will not get confirmation. I think a lot of people who have been forgotten their vision and mission so they want to drop the name of bitcoin by increasing the presence of new coins and its value is so fantastic in a few hours 
November 12, 2017, 09:21:48 PM
This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.
Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
POS changes everything.
1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate
Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
POS changes everything.
1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate
This is what we signed up for when we let the mining centralize this badly, and now that we have let this get to this point, the only civi/diplomatic/democratic thing to do is to smply catch up. of course Jihan would do this; he has spent a lot of time and a lot of money to develop him mining capacity. if he has an ideological split, like he did, then this is what happens. in the future, we will be wary of investing in a decentralized thing that really isnt.
the mining situation will have to improve (greater decentralization, and advances in efficiency) for this to be sustainable. until then, this is still very much in an experimental place. treat it as such, and you wont be disappointed
and decetralization should never = trust. you see how easily this can be subverted.
November 12, 2017, 08:06:27 PM
The ecosystem of blockchain of bitcoin is constructed on circular dependence. Increase in quantity of miners (quantity hash of capacities) increases by the speed of transactions on the one hand and leads to increase in complexity on the other hand. Increase in complexity increases the cost of production (cost value) of coin. Increase in complexity leads to reduction of quantity of the got coins for unit of time and to reduction of speed of transaction. Unprofitable cost value forces miners to switch own capacities to more profitable coins. It leads hash-rate of bitcoin to growth delay. This cycle is repeated by miners on an alternative coin until there cost value of production doesn't increase too. After that mayner return to bitcoin. And everything repeats anew. It shows that it is enough to unite the necessary quantity of miners to affect market bitcoin. I think, the mining of currencies will consign to the past as this imperfection of a code of blockchain of bitcoin.
November 12, 2017, 07:12:33 PM
It is a interesting discuss, i really not sure if more hash power increases the price, in theory, if there are no buyers, the price will not increase, even if you are mining a lot with huge hash power.
I think that rich people can inside trading their group even selling and buying to themselves, just for control and increase the price. So another people sees the price increasing and buy like an herd effect.
I think that rich people can inside trading their group even selling and buying to themselves, just for control and increase the price. So another people sees the price increasing and buy like an herd effect.
November 12, 2017, 06:56:30 PM
This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.
Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
POS changes everything.
1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate
Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
POS changes everything.
1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.
https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate
We can say miners are like the early rich people, they have the advantage from new comers and new adopters of crypto currency. But once the time comes that most of the people are using Bitcoin then everything will somehow be leveled up.
November 12, 2017, 06:38:31 PM
The premise of the post is wrong.
The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.
I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.
Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.
They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.
Patience. Time will tell.
This.The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.
I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.
Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.
They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.
Patience. Time will tell.
I thought Whales who can manipulate the price, but in this thread miners seem have more power than whales or market/price manipulator.
(oh this is PoS coin, let's buy all the coin, we will have biggest reward, we will always get richer
don't need to buy expensive hardware ) November 12, 2017, 05:52:09 PM
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.
Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.
There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.
Proof of stake system wouldn't change the situation mate. It doesn't bring anything new to bitcoin ecosystem. The problem is some groups, miners, bitcoin celebrities are doing hard manipulation in bitcoin and bitcoin cash. This is totally bad.
People like us need to be the role takers of this ecosystem. Mining it doesn't mean owning it totally.
November 12, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
The premise of the post is wrong.
The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.
I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.
Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.
They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.
Patience. Time will tell.
The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.
I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.
Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.
They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.
Patience. Time will tell.
November 12, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.
Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.
Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.
It's the same as now, but people don't have to invest in equipment for mining, instead they have to invest in a token. I also believe POS is the future.
November 12, 2017, 05:06:25 PM
It's down to 165k now 
See things are looking better already.
I want to point out the block rewards because of this -
Here are the last 5 blocks at the time of this post.
12.5 + 8.97069057 BTC
12.5 + 5.81207641 BTC
12.5 + 8.42500571 BTC
12.5 + 7.86277005 BTC
12.5 + 6.28012796 BTC
Let the idiots grind on empty BCH blocks = More for us!
See things are looking better already. I want to point out the block rewards because of this -
Here are the last 5 blocks at the time of this post.
12.5 + 8.97069057 BTC
12.5 + 5.81207641 BTC
12.5 + 8.42500571 BTC
12.5 + 7.86277005 BTC
12.5 + 6.28012796 BTC
Let the idiots grind on empty BCH blocks = More for us!
November 12, 2017, 01:25:26 PM
177k unconfirmed transactions on BTC and counting... Wondering how bad the dumbing is going to be when those transactions finally do go through...
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
November 12, 2017, 12:52:54 PM
POS changes everything.
There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.
Sounds like something easily exploited.
November 12, 2017, 12:41:47 PM
the amount of market manipulation is insane. this is why sometimes things need to be regulated
November 12, 2017, 12:40:35 PM
POS changes everything.
There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.
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