Miners have full control of Bitcoin price. Nobody can trust a system like this. - page 2.

WilderX

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Quote from: garytheasshole on November 12, 2017, 09:12:33 AM

You're forgetting that markets tend to correct.
How exactly PoS is not making the rich richer? I fail to see your point.

I already explained in POS you can play your hand only once (dumb your stake) after that you have no more power over the system. In POW the largest miners can keep playing the system indefinitely.

Quote from: WilderX on November 12, 2017, 05:50:41 AM

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

WilderX

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 12, 2017, 09:10:29 AM

Quote from: WilderX on November 12, 2017, 06:57:37 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 12, 2017, 06:45:26 AM

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

No, it's not, the value is always determined by supply and demand, production costs is simply the bottom line for value, because no one would produce something at a loss. But you can't simply put a lot of work into something and expect to sell it at higher price, buyers don't concern themselves with production costs, their price is based purely on their feelings. And with cryptocurrencies the price change always precedes the hashpower change because miners are following the most profitable chain at the moment - it's never the opposite, like you are describing, that miners put more work and the price rises. SegWit2x futures were trading at a fraction of Bitcoin's price, despite being backed by 90% of hashpower - by your logic, they should have had 90% of Bitcoin's price.

Yes you nailed it with "production costs is simple the bottom line for value" of course there is other factors like supply and demand, good/bad news pending etf listing, futures, Mt Gox fiasco.. China bans Bitcoin trading etc, but these have lesser effect Bitcoin price always settles based on the production cost.

You are talking about something that was only on paper where 90% of miners at the time said would support it, but it has not been in production so a fraction sounds right for bitcoin fork that has 0 hashes and 0 prodution cost in it.

The biggest miners are the insiders and few pools easily control over half of the hashpower they will do as they please.

WilderX

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Quote from: mammon on November 12, 2017, 08:57:46 AM

Let me guess... WilderX doesn't have BCH??

I do I hold few casascius coins meaning I own coins in all Bitcoin forks that exist now and in future.

I would like to see Bitcoin move to POS that would put a stop to all this gaming the miners are doing with the markets and Bitcoin would be able to scale better.

garytheasshole

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Quote from: BitWolf~ on November 12, 2017, 09:28:16 AM

Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

Rough estimates are 15 days for the next difficulty adjustment, could be sooner or later depending how long BCH will remain profitable.

BitWolf~

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Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

castiel0504

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I thought this was market manipulation from people that have left S2X? Instead of miners controlling BCH/BTC.. Of course they transferred to mine Bitcoin Cash at the moment because is rising like madman, but i read on some reddit comment that some Hard Fork is happening on 13th november, maybe price is going like crazy because of that?(not sure how much this info is true, i havent done any research about Bitcoin Cash)

garytheasshole

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Quote from: kaloloy on November 12, 2017, 09:23:28 AM

Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

Secured? Surely you mean isolated from the whole bitcoin economy. Nobody accepts BCH.

gentlemand

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Quote from: tomwrx on November 12, 2017, 09:19:07 AM

The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend.

It depends on the miner. The very biggest will control enough mining power to spook the market and will have enough coins to be able to move it also. There are thousands more who'll follow what he does.

kaloloy

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Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

tomwrx

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The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend. BTC price increasing - more and more people or companies entering btc mining. e.g. It's the same with some unknown altcoin mining - it's barely profitbale, so just few people are mining it and difficulty is low. As soon as coin price increases (because of positive news or other factors), other miners spot a possibility for a profit and start mining that coin, thus mining difficulty increases.

gentlemand

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No matter what system, fork, workaround or pleading you come up with, people with more power and money will find a way to lord over you. That's just how the world works and always will.

I'd love to see something that managed to neutralise dickish behaviour, but humans are dicks.

garytheasshole

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You're forgetting that markets tend to correct.
How exactly PoS is not making the rich richer? I fail to see your point.

Stan235

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Could you please explain to newbie why Bitcoin does not want to encraese block size? As i inderstood it will lead to my transactions wright in the block. Looks like good idea.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: WilderX on November 12, 2017, 06:57:37 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 12, 2017, 06:45:26 AM

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

No, it's not, the value is always determined by supply and demand, production costs is simply the bottom line for value, because no one would produce something at a loss. But you can't simply put a lot of work into something and expect to sell it at higher price, buyers don't concern themselves with production costs, their price is based purely on their feelings. And with cryptocurrencies the price change always precedes the hashpower change because miners are following the most profitable chain at the moment - it's never the opposite, like you are describing, that miners put more work and the price rises. SegWit2x futures were trading at a fraction of Bitcoin's price, despite being backed by 90% of hashpower - by your logic, they should have had 90% of Bitcoin's price.

mammon

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Let me guess... WilderX doesn't have BCH??

LoyceV

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Although I agree that miners have too much power, I don't think POS will solve the fundamental problems. I think all the forks will disappear the moment the real Bitcoin allows scaling. This will end all forks and suck many altcoins dry.

What I want, as a regular Bitcoin user, is two things:
1. cheap and fast transactions
2. see the value of my coins increase
I have #2 in common with rich miners and whales, but for #1 the have the exact opposite interests.

I'm also surprised https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/ (or https://bitcoincore.org) doesn't mention anything about how Bitcoin Core things these problems can be solved in the near future. Sure, they warn about forks and incompatibilities, but that's the result of the problems, not the cause.

Lightning Must Strike Soon, Bitcoin Facing Backlogs as Scalability Solution Awaited

Quote from: pitham1 on November 12, 2017, 06:36:02 AM

Miners moving to BCH does not increase BCH's price. It does nothing except increase the speed of blocks being generated (until the next difficulty adjustment). So them dumping BTC and moving to BCH just to profit does not make sense.

And yet, the increase in block speed on Bitcoin Cash coincides with the pump. I've wondered about this before: why on earth would someone start paying more to buy Bitcoin Cash the moment miners are creating more of these coins?

WilderX

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You can also thank miners for the 166k unconfirmed transactions and growing. Surely Bitcoin and Proof of Work has a bright future Grin

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

WilderX

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 12, 2017, 06:45:26 AM

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

I have seen this as a miner for years now. Everyone trying to tell you differently does not want you to know the truth.

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all

WilderX

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Quote from: pitham1 on November 12, 2017, 06:36:02 AM

Miners moving to BCH does not increase BCH's price. It does nothing except increase the speed of blocks being generated (until the next difficulty adjustment). So them dumping BTC and moving to BCH just to profit does not make sense.

You know nothing. The more miners there are it has a direct impact on what it costs to produce that specific unit be it BTC or BCH which ultimately dictates the price of that said unit.

You are legendary man... How do you still not see this? Are you not a miner?

hatshepsut93

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OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

Topic: Miners have full control of Bitcoin price. Nobody can trust a system like this. - page 2. (Read 1502 times)