Mixing your Bitcoin might become illegal in the future - page 3.

pixie85

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Quote from: 20kevin20 on May 07, 2021, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: Fortify on May 07, 2021, 03:25:40 PM

Bitcoin mixers have one job: To disguise the original source of Bitcoin funds.

Yeah, I do something similar to this with fiat too by withdrawing cash from my bank and preferring to pay in cash in order not to have a traceable history of my funds. Yes, I do this with usual stuff such as grocery shopping. And no, I don't have cannabis or LSD in my grocery store.

Cash is the best mixer you can get because although bills are numbered, nobody writes down the numbers when you withdraw from an ATM or when they pay you your wage.
Bills are not connected with your real life ID.

I do the same when I transact. I buy coins with cash and sell them for cash. Then I spend cash in stores. I barely have any money in the bank and my transaction history is non-existent.

Even if mixing becomes illegal in 1 country it will never be illegal worldwide. Mixers will move from one country to another and so will the exchanges.

zasad@

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Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

The recent popularity of Bitcoin has brought the attention of governments and central banks worldwide. We've seen certain opposition from countries like India, China, and Russia against the pioneer cryptocurrency. Countries that are friendly towards Bitcoin (like the US and UK), are constantly surveilling its citizens for any suspicious activity. I've seen that some countries have taken action against Bitcoin mixing services with the excuse that they're used for money laundering and terrorist financing. Since most (if not all) of these centralized mixers don't comply with KYC/AML regulations, they're subject to being shut down by the government. Imagine if criminals begin using Bitcoin mixers in mass for money laundering purposes. If the trend continues, mixing Bitcoin may turn out to become illegal.

Do you think there's a possibility this will happen in the future? If not, why? What do you think will happen once mixers (both custodial and non-custodial) are banned by the government? Will this force people to use privacy coins more thoroughly? Or will everything remain the same? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

What will they do about decentralized trading?
Or, for example, I can exchange Bitcoin for RenBTC token, and then exchange RenBTC for Ethereum
Decentralized Tokenized BTC
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5288914
Decentralized bitcoin trading
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5290331

Chato1977

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I don't think that this will come any time soon , Mixing company is also being very helpful and we don't know if some government is also using Mixing company for their own country's benefit?

Quote from: Gamerholic on May 09, 2021, 03:26:58 PM

The more governments poke their noses into this topic and try to regulate it with strict restrictive measures, the stronger the demand for anonymous coins that cannot be tracked at all will be. This is logical and I think that this will not happen. Smart people first thoroughly study the issue before making any decisions, especially at such a high level. On the other hand, time passes and while someone is thinking, who else is acting at this time. I do not know how it will be, but I think that governments should act carefully and gently.

Reality talks lol.

People wants privacy and Hope that government will not deny this.

bitterguy28

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Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

The recent popularity of Bitcoin has brought the attention of governments and central banks worldwide. We've seen certain opposition from countries like India, China, and Russia against the pioneer cryptocurrency. Countries that are friendly towards Bitcoin (like the US and UK), are constantly surveilling its citizens for any suspicious activity. I've seen that some countries have taken action against Bitcoin mixing services with the excuse that they're used for money laundering and terrorist financing. Since most (if not all) of these centralized mixers don't comply with KYC/AML regulations, they're subject to being shut down by the government. Imagine if criminals begin using Bitcoin mixers in mass for money laundering purposes. If the trend continues, mixing Bitcoin may turn out to become illegal.

Do you think there's a possibility this will happen in the future? If not, why? What do you think will happen once mixers (both custodial and non-custodial) are banned by the government? Will this force people to use privacy coins more thoroughly? Or will everything remain the same? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

this is already expected since then , I might not say that Mixing is not a good business because this helps people a lot .
But the reality speaks , because abuse from syndicates and criminals are into crypto mixing.

Kittygalore

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Quote from: Gamerholic on May 09, 2021, 03:26:58 PM

The more governments poke their noses into this topic and try to regulate it with strict restrictive measures, the stronger the demand for anonymous coins that cannot be tracked at all will be. This is logical and I think that this will not happen. Smart people first thoroughly study the issue before making any decisions, especially at such a high level. On the other hand, time passes and while someone is thinking, who else is acting at this time. I do not know how it will be, but I think that governments should act carefully and gently.

Even if the government doesn't, I am sure that there will still be people that are going to build a more anonymous coin than the previous. I think that mixing should be regulated because it is a really useful tool for criminal purposes and I think that if something is more useful to do crimes then that thing shouldn't even exist in the first place.

sumant

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Yes from start we are not sure that bitcoin will play big role in our business. Bitcoin has been a scary project for us to hold because of different type of government news and social media effects. Sometimes we sell in panic and the buy at high prices. With more people and organizations taking part in bitcoin now it's looking good future in bitcoin now and every government should make some regulation to understand this mechanism.

just_Alice

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Governments want to control, crypto is the way of avoiding it and having some privacy. However, everyone knows that Bitcoin transactions can be traceable and the only way to avoid it is to either create a large number of crypto wallets, don't connect them, use different exchanges, etc. or, the more efficient way - use mixing services.
Simply, the govs want to keep the control they have at the moment, so they'll have to enforce a ban on such services.
I think it's very much a possibility. And not only in countries like Russia, but the US as well, because all this crypto-friendly stuff is bs, they only want us to believe we've gained some freedom here, while the truth is quite different. Don't want to sound paranoid, but it's just the way things are.

teosanru

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Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

The recent popularity of Bitcoin has brought the attention of governments and central banks worldwide. We've seen certain opposition from countries like India, China, and Russia against the pioneer cryptocurrency. Countries that are friendly towards Bitcoin (like the US and UK), are constantly surveilling its citizens for any suspicious activity. I've seen that some countries have taken action against Bitcoin mixing services with the excuse that they're used for money laundering and terrorist financing. Since most (if not all) of these centralized mixers don't comply with KYC/AML regulations, they're subject to being shut down by the government. Imagine if criminals begin using Bitcoin mixers in mass for money laundering purposes. If the trend continues, mixing Bitcoin may turn out to become illegal.

Do you think there's a possibility this will happen in the future? If not, why? What do you think will happen once mixers (both custodial and non-custodial) are banned by the government? Will this force people to use privacy coins more thoroughly? Or will everything remain the same? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

This is the first thing that would and I somewhere feel should happen. Believe it or not Cryptocurrency mixers really promote money laundering. Some would argue that it helps in decentralisation and anonymity but with this level of widespread usage of Cryptos, anonymity will be sacrificed to some extent to maintain traceability. Mixers hamper this great feature that Cryptocurrency offers to us. Moreover recent exchange hacks and extortions have also used these Crypto mixers to get past the traceability of authorities. So very soon crypto mixers can be banned completely in many countries if cryptos have to stay.

Ryker1

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on May 09, 2021, 02:52:43 PM

Quote from: kryptqnick on May 09, 2021, 11:34:58 AM

Well, governments can enforce the bans on mixers by literally making it illegal for such companies to exist and prosecuting anyone who offers such services. Surely, some companies would still exist and have their customers under such circumstances, but many people will feel discouraged to use something if it's explicitly illegal rather than in the gray area, so introducing such a ban could accomplish some goals. I personally wouldn't care much because I've never used a Bitcoin mixer, but I'm not sure if it's something that should be illegal. I mean, companies do it all the time when they want to hide something, and while offshore schemes are frowned upon (when a company is a part of a company which is in turn owned by a bunch of other companies), they don't seem to be illegal.

Mixers are not companies, they are online services that operate without any registrations and don't pay taxes. They wouldn't care much if they were outlawed, they are already hiding from the government, because government would like them to snitch on their users.

Well, perhaps that is the reason why there are still mixing services that exist even though some countries are still fighting how to regulate bitcoin by their government which the fact they can't even control it. At some point, the bitcoin mixer service can be used for a good purpose not only in a bad but sometimes due to its feature that can boost your anonymity, this service has been used too in illegal activity. In fact, an illegal activity not only in crypto but also in using fiat.

Gamerholic

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The more governments poke their noses into this topic and try to regulate it with strict restrictive measures, the stronger the demand for anonymous coins that cannot be tracked at all will be. This is logical and I think that this will not happen. Smart people first thoroughly study the issue before making any decisions, especially at such a high level. On the other hand, time passes and while someone is thinking, who else is acting at this time. I do not know how it will be, but I think that governments should act carefully and gently.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: kryptqnick on May 09, 2021, 11:34:58 AM

Well, governments can enforce the bans on mixers by literally making it illegal for such companies to exist and prosecuting anyone who offers such services. Surely, some companies would still exist and have their customers under such circumstances, but many people will feel discouraged to use something if it's explicitly illegal rather than in the gray area, so introducing such a ban could accomplish some goals. I personally wouldn't care much because I've never used a Bitcoin mixer, but I'm not sure if it's something that should be illegal. I mean, companies do it all the time when they want to hide something, and while offshore schemes are frowned upon (when a company is a part of a company which is in turn owned by a bunch of other companies), they don't seem to be illegal.

Mixers are not companies, they are online services that operate without any registrations and don't pay taxes. They wouldn't care much if they were outlawed, they are already hiding from the government, because government would like them to snitch on their users.

dezoel

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Well, from what I have seen so far, nobody is ready to make use of privacy coins; people’s choice of coin when it comes to daily transactions has been Bitcoin, then followed by coins like Ethereum and Tron, which are not privacy coins, unless things are going to change now that Bitcoin has a higher fees.

Then I’d like to add that I haven’t seen the need for making use of coin mixers, I do understand that there are lots of people who take their privacy seriously, but most of them are doing shady business and so they are trying to cover up their sources of income so that no one finds out. Most people really don’t care about the privacy thing, they just like cryptocurrency and since it makes transactions easy and fast, so they make use of it.

kryptqnick

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on May 08, 2021, 02:53:05 PM

I doubt that governments are interested in regulating what people do with their coins, because it's unrealistic to enforce it, but they can tell exchanges and other services that accept crypto to refuse accepting mixed coins, or demand users to show their inputs before mixing. Or maybe they won't even have to, because exchanges already do chainanalysis and some even ban their users from using CoinJoin.

Well, governments can enforce the bans on mixers by literally making it illegal for such companies to exist and prosecuting anyone who offers such services. Surely, some companies would still exist and have their customers under such circumstances, but many people will feel discouraged to use something if it's explicitly illegal rather than in the gray area, so introducing such a ban could accomplish some goals. I personally wouldn't care much because I've never used a Bitcoin mixer, but I'm not sure if it's something that should be illegal. I mean, companies do it all the time when they want to hide something, and while offshore schemes are frowned upon (when a company is a part of a company which is in turn owned by a bunch of other companies), they don't seem to be illegal.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: target on May 09, 2021, 07:45:01 AM

They can't regulate it, mixers can be created by a simple script just installed in the server and it could work already. If they ever put down the website, another will be created. Its a wild goose chase. But government can create pose a mixer of their own to watch criminals.

The rumors I've read were that its the mining that is going to be regulated. Coins mined in US, can circulate in US, and coins from Iran can circulate in Iran. That's is what Kevin Olery said which virgin coins will be regulated.

The last part is also not very practical. The miners are not answerable to the American authorities, especially since >95% of the coins are mined outside the US. Anyone can purchase the fresh coins from miners in China or Iran, or even Venezuela, and use them to fund the mixers. How the Americans are going to prevent this? And how many of the mining pools have KYC activated? Even if KYC is mandatory, will the mining pools in China be willing to give that information to the IRS?

Woodie

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Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

The recent popularity of Bitcoin has brought the attention of governments and central banks worldwide. We've seen certain opposition from countries like India, China, and Russia against the pioneer cryptocurrency. Countries that are friendly towards Bitcoin (like the US and UK), are constantly surveilling its citizens for any suspicious activity. I've seen that some countries have taken action against Bitcoin mixing services with the excuse that they're used for money laundering and terrorist financing.

Money laundering or terrorist financing wasn't started with crypto nor will it end with fiat. And for the record these illegal activities should involve huge sums of money which means exchanges wouldn't be their preferred choice as these could subject them to KYC and AML and a money trail.

Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

Since most (if not all) of these centralized mixers don't comply with KYC/AML regulations, they're subject to being shut down by the government. Imagine if criminals begin using Bitcoin mixers in mass for money laundering purposes. If the trend continues, mixing Bitcoin may turn out to become illegal.

Are mixers some sort of registered company, I don't think so which is why I do see any line to separate these by legality.

Quote from: Abiky on May 07, 2021, 02:25:35 PM

Do you think there's a possibility this will happen in the future? If not, why? What do you think will happen once mixers (both custodial and non-custodial) are banned by the government? Will this force people to use privacy coins more thoroughly? Or will everything remain the same? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

Anyone that needs privacy at its highest level should consider privacy coins and a combination of mixers and btw these banners of mixers won't happen.

Ararbermas

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We cannot stop them if they want bitcoin to become illegal because indeed ever since before they trying to stop the suspicious activity of some enthusiast who use bitcoin in any illegal transaction because of being so untraceable.. For what i know its already banned in some countries because of that reason... So we cannot blame them since this things is really can cause something bad that's why governments is against on it wherein even before.

target

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on May 09, 2021, 07:31:09 AM

Quote from: Yey09 on May 09, 2021, 01:48:16 AM

We will see more strict regulation with every year

How they are going to regulate the Mixers? Developers can easily build a mixing site in the TOR and there is hardly anything that the FBI or the IRS can do about it. And if somehow they seize the domain and shut it down, the promoters behind the mixer will simply set up another domain offering the same service. "Strict" regulations have their own limits, especially when it comes to cryptocurrency. Once in a while, they may have some success (such as the seizure of BTC-e in 2017), but right now cryptocurrency sector has grown too big for them to enforce their control.

They can't regulate it, mixers can be created by a simple script just installed in the server and it could work already. If they ever put down the website, another will be created. Its a wild goose chase. But government can create pose a mixer of their own to watch criminals.

The rumors I've read were that its the mining that is going to be regulated. Coins mined in US, can circulate in US, and coins from Iran can circulate in Iran. That's is what Kevin Olery said which virgin coins will be regulated.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Yey09 on May 09, 2021, 01:48:16 AM

We will see more strict regulation with every year

How they are going to regulate the Mixers? Developers can easily build a mixing site in the TOR and there is hardly anything that the FBI or the IRS can do about it. And if somehow they seize the domain and shut it down, the promoters behind the mixer will simply set up another domain offering the same service. "Strict" regulations have their own limits, especially when it comes to cryptocurrency. Once in a while, they may have some success (such as the seizure of BTC-e in 2017), but right now cryptocurrency sector has grown too big for them to enforce their control.

lionheart78

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on May 08, 2021, 02:53:05 PM

I doubt that governments are interested in regulating what people do with their coins,

Don't doubt. The government wants full control especially the financial flow of its citizen. They also wanted to exploit the power of AML to milk individuals of their money. If the government is not interested then why they implement AML?

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on May 08, 2021, 02:53:05 PM

because it's unrealistic to enforce it, but they can tell exchanges and other services that accept crypto to refuse accepting mixed coins, or demand users to show their inputs before mixing. Or maybe they won't even have to, because exchanges already do chainanalysis and some even ban their users from using CoinJoin.

They can enforce it on their jurisdiction, but definitely not on the whole world. Same thing India and other unfriendly countries that imposed ban on Bitcoin, what more on the mixing service that can be controlled since they are a third party company that have an owner and a base of operation.

Leviathan.007

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Mixing bitcoin for protecting your privacy is totally fine because you just want to don't let anyone to easily trace your transactions to possibility find your real identify. Actually, in my own idea, that's the whole point of bitcoin to protect your privacy. Obviously, some people will abuse it and do money laundry or use this feature for illegal deals such as gun or drugs. That's why the governments and the related organizations will try to make mixing illegal. For example, In my country, some local exchanges can not accept the mixed bitcoins.

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