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Topic: Mobile car-based mining operation entirely possible (Read 4033 times)

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Car engines are not designed for low load constant speed - you need to increase the load ie. alternator capacity and utilization dramatically to get the best out of the engine, even at 1800RPM low load you are running perhaps 2% efficiency, while a traditional, older car engine could reach 20%.

Can you elaborate on this?  What is different about a "traditional" car engine to cause the large difference in efficiency that you describe, when used to generate electricity?
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Teal: Big Diesel has higher efficiency than tiny 4 banger. Diesel as a fuel has higher efficiency from chemical to kinetic energy.
Reason tiny 4 bangers gets so high MPG is because they are lightweight and small surface area, not exceptional engine efficiency.
For a gasoline engine 25% is pretty much the norm efficiency rating, depending upon how modern it is.
Many of the tiny 4 bangers getting huge/good MPG (80s-90s Renault Clio, 80s Peugeot 205, Subaru Justy, 80s Nissan Cherry) actually has kind of low efficiency engines in them. They are simply lightweight cars. Subary Justy actually has 3 cylinder engine in it, 1.2l carburated, very peaky output, very low torque at low rpm, even normal driving requires some 3k rpm yet even 4WD on during winter you can achieve better MPG than many big cars. Summer and no 4WD it can achieve 50MPG.

I realize that. That why I said that such an efficiency for a small gas ICE would be very decent.
sr. member
Activity: 402
Merit: 250
I read a little while back that idling a modern car typically uses 0.2 gallons/hour.  So, if you consider that the minimum, then you're looking at at least $0.70/kwh.  It is possible to achieve full draw on an alternator at idle, so I think it is reasonable to assume you could get 700w out of the car at idle.  There would be a nearly negligible increase of load on the engine.  $0.70 / 700w = at least $1.00/kwh.

If you upgraded your alternator to allow for more load, then you might need to also increase the default idle speed to ensure the engine does not stall, which would mean more fuel usage.

EDIT:  Now if you're talking about running it on a car that is moving, I'd say the electricity is virtually free.

Extending on that, you don't want to run your car at idle for power generation - you want to run it at the peak torque RPM most probably, very often something like 1800RPM-2200RPM. Larger the engine, lower this is.
Also, the typical car here consumes more like 1.5L/hr, so more like 0.35gallons/hour, and at 1800RPM you are probably looking at 0.5-0.6gallons/hour.
Car engines are not designed for low load constant speed - you need to increase the load ie. alternator capacity and utilization dramatically to get the best out of the engine, even at 1800RPM low load you are running perhaps 2% efficiency, while a traditional, older car engine could reach 20%.

for thought experiment, let's think about a modified engine JUST for this purpose.
Turbocharged engine, with mild cams for lower RPM peak output (Where you want to run, or close to it), running lean -> slightly below stoichiometric value (Complete burn, slightly more air into engine than required for complete burn). This kind of engine could reach upto 30% efficiency.
Now we can calculate from energy content and alternator efficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content_.28high_and_low_heating_value.29
13kWh/kg or 9.7kWh / liter.
Let's assume we tune this engine for 30kW load, this means we need to burn 100kW worth of electricity, dismissing alternator disefficiencies. After alternator efficiency we get perhaps 27kW of electricity.
That means just more than 10liters per hour.
Please note: I chose 30kW load as load is required for something of that displacement to get to good efficiency rates, even 30kW might be far too low, but let's give it a chance for being tuned for this usage.
At the gas rates like here 95E10 going for about 1.5€ per liter = 15€ per hour and we get under 0.5€/kWh efficiency.
The remaining 70kW could be used to heat your house, or alternative methods used to collect electricity from it. But even at 100% efficiency in all parts it would still cost 0.15€ kWh which is more than double what i'm paying locally right now.

When you are moving it's not free either, but small load disappears in to the existing inefficiencies, 20RPM lower idle RPM don't matter. Even if you are going highway, and trying to get best MPG possible, it will show up there, but it's marginal.


Teal: Big Diesel has higher efficiency than tiny 4 banger. Diesel as a fuel has higher efficiency from chemical to kinetic energy.
Reason tiny 4 bangers gets so high MPG is because they are lightweight and small surface area, not exceptional engine efficiency.
For a gasoline engine 25% is pretty much the norm efficiency rating, depending upon how modern it is.
Many of the tiny 4 bangers getting huge/good MPG (80s-90s Renault Clio, 80s Peugeot 205, Subaru Justy, 80s Nissan Cherry) actually has kind of low efficiency engines in them. They are simply lightweight cars. Subary Justy actually has 3 cylinder engine in it, 1.2l carburated, very peaky output, very low torque at low rpm, even normal driving requires some 3k rpm yet even 4WD on during winter you can achieve better MPG than many big cars. Summer and no 4WD it can achieve 50MPG.
sr. member
Activity: 402
Merit: 250
Can a car battery provide 120W constantly? Won't that burn out your alternator?

That's just 10A. Many modern cars need that for ignition alone, and performance cars may require double that for fuel pump. Racing cars might require 40A just for the fuel pumps!
Even 80's corollas have 55A alternators. Getting a alternator rewired for higher amperage is not even very costly, just make sure the alternator controller is able to work with the increased amperage.
Friend had 110 or 120A alternator on his M3 for the audio setup.
And that's just those cars which aren't especially power hungry ... Let's enter the SPL competition scene: These guys might be consuming 20kW ...

Hell, just last week i sold one amp with 4x30A fuses and rated RMS power of 5000W to 1Ohm (very short peak).
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool

Nice, but time dilation would work against you.

Dude, see like literally 1 post above yours...
legendary
Activity: 1027
Merit: 1005
This idea crossed my mind but in the sense that I could drive and pickup my ASIC rather than it being shipped to me. I could mine on the way home and gain an extra day or so. But then I decided I didnt feel like driving that far.

Sorry but that's just human greed in pure, raw form.

I never claimed it wasnt. In fact i can openly admit that the sole reason I started mining was to turn a profit. yes the idea is cool, but Im not going to drop $5k plus the time/effort setting up and maintaining a GPU/FPGA/ASIC farm just because its "cool". Maybe you have money to burn like that and if so great! Send some my way!
sr. member
Activity: 560
Merit: 256
This idea crossed my mind but in the sense that I could drive and pickup my ASIC rather than it being shipped to me. I could mine on the way home and gain an extra day or so. But then I decided I didnt feel like driving that far.

Sorry but that's just human greed in pure, raw form.
hero member
Activity: 481
Merit: 500
Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool

Nice, but time dilation would work against you.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
The time dialation would actually reduce mining performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_and_space_flight

Incorrect. You are thinking of a body in relative acceleration to the point of reference. AFAIK the ISS is in stationary orbit WRT the earth. I am referring to Gravitational Time Dilation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation .
Cool, TIL.  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
The time dialation would actually reduce mining performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_and_space_flight

Incorrect. You are thinking of a body in relative acceleration to the point of reference. AFAIK the ISS is in stationary orbit WRT the earth. I am referring to Gravitational Time Dilation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation .
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
The time dialation would actually reduce mining performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_and_space_flight
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
doesn't it cost $10k to lift a pound into space? you're down $10k for the BFL alone

Well he just asked for cool factor. Doesn't get much cooler than space-travel and time-dilation for increasing number of coins produced imho. Admittedly time to recoup your costs will be high.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Once when my grid power was out for an extended period, I hooked a 1500W sine wave inverter to my car, and ran my fridge, a couple computers, and some other things on it for maybe 7 hours.  It burned through quite a bit of fuel.  Maybe 5 gallons.  That was on a BMW 6 cylinder EFI engine...

Nowhere near as cost effective as grid power.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1032
I guarantee you that the power company does a much more efficient job of converting fuel into electricity than your car does. Even a little emergency generator will do better than a car. Power doesn't come for free, and about 85 percent of a vehicle's fuel energy potential is lost from inefficiencies.

In addition, be aware that very high voltage (100+V) transients can occur in car electrical systems from motors turning on and off and such, and if you hook devices up to a car's 12V electrical system that aren't designed for the kind of voltage spikes they will see, expect the magic smoke to come out.

http://www.advantech.com.tw/eservice-applied-computing/newsletters/white%20paper/Power_Challenges_Faced_by_Vehicle_Applications.pdf

So if the "why?" is because you think your car makes free electricity, myth: busted. If the "why?" is because you have no home where you can plug in your miner, you should be rethinking your situation. Otherwise this is as practical as a car-based ice skating rink.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1431
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
doesn't it cost $10k to lift a pound into space? you're down $10k for the BFL alone
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.

Step 1. Get on next trip to ISS (international space station)
Step 2. Hook up miners to take advantage of free solar power!
Step 3. Mine while taking advantage of time-dilation.
Step 4. Profit (no question marks needed).

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1027
Merit: 1005
This idea crossed my mind but in the sense that I could drive and pickup my ASIC rather than it being shipped to me. I could mine on the way home and gain an extra day or so. But then I decided I didnt feel like driving that far.
sr. member
Activity: 386
Merit: 250
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
Not sure if you earn points with the "cool-factor" by mobile mining.  Interesting yes, cool no.  Now cool factor would be mobile mining that results in greater number of coins produce then can be done standing still.  Everyone here would be all over you and saying cool even though it is not realistic, or is it Mr. flux capacitor.
hero member
Activity: 481
Merit: 500
Guys, I never proposed this to save money - I was thinking about the flexibility and the "cool-factor".
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
Now, you could get almost free power if you tied your mining rig into your ECU. While accelerating you wouldn't actively hash but would just keep valid work queued up. As soon as you tap the brake, start hashing. The increased draw on the alternator would act as a form of really expensive engine braking and would save wear on your brake pads.

Once a rally starts on the market, massive pileups follow on highways... All miners hitting brakes suddenly Cheesy
Seriously, we are onto something here... A hashing unit can be used whenever there is lots power to be dissipated quickly, from vehicular brakes to cut-back protection in high voltage power supplies...
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