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Topic: Moneypot just took a huge loss? - page 7. (Read 7588 times)

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1330
January 30, 2016, 12:09:50 AM
#48
What's fishy is the 35%. So I went and calculated the kelly criterion for that  payout table. Here is some Haskell code:

To me ~0.29% seems more realistic than 35.3028752%. So assuming the bet was a max bet (which it probably wasn't but was close) the house overbet by a factor of roughly 120x. Good job!

Kelly tells us to maximise the sum of the probabilities times the log of (1 + b.x) where b is the profit divided by the stake, and x is the proportion of the bankroll to risk.

Plotting that function against x I see:

  

Find the x value where that peaks, and we have the proportion of the bankroll to risk. It looks like it peaks at around 0.3, meaning we risk 30%.

Let's zoom in:

  

So it peaks very close to 0.353, meaning we risk 35.3% of the bankroll.

Thanks Kelly!

Is your Haskell code remembering that we aren't risking the stake which is returned to the player? On the potential profit (payout - stake) is "risk" to the bankroll.

Edit: I should post the equation of the curve I'm plotting so you can check I didn't do anything stupid. I'm looking at the bet 'backwards', ie. from the house's point of view. I am considering the house bet size to be the most it can lose on the bet. So the 'b' for the jackpot is -1 (a profit of -1 times the bet size). 'b' for the 2nd highest win is -46/120 (we only lose 46/120ths as much as we were willing to risk because the highest two payouts are 121 and 47). Etc:

Code:
plot [0.352:0.354] \
      1/65536.0 * log(1 + x * -120/120) + \
     16/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  -46/120) + \
    120/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  -12/120) + \
    560/65536.0 * log(1 + x *   -4/120) + \
   1820/65536.0 * log(1 + x *   -2/120) + \
   4368/65536.0 * log(1 + x * -0.4/120) + \
   8008/65536.0 * log(1 + x *    0/120) + \
  11440/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  0.5/120) + \
  12870/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  0.7/120) + \
  11440/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  0.5/120) + \
   8008/65536.0 * log(1 + x *    0/120) + \
   4368/65536.0 * log(1 + x * -0.4/120) + \
   1820/65536.0 * log(1 + x *   -2/120) + \
    560/65536.0 * log(1 + x *   -4/120) + \
    120/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  -12/120) + \
     16/65536.0 * log(1 + x *  -46/120) + \
      1/65536.0 * log(1 + x * -120/120)   \
title "maximise this"

Edit2: I tried reading the Haskell code. (I don't know Haskell. I don't even know how many L's it has):

Code:
table =
  [ ( 65536     / (2^32) , 1 - 121.0 ), ( 749731840 / (2^32) , 1 - 0.5   )
[...]
fun x = sum [ p * log (1 + b * x) | (p,b) <- table ]

It looks like you're using newton's method to maximize the sum of the products - but you're using the payout multipliers from the player's point of view. You need to look at it from the other side. The house never wins 121x. The player's big wins are the house's big losses. We need to calculate each house profit or loss as a multiplier of the amount the house is risking.
copper member
Activity: 2562
Merit: 2510
Spear the bees
January 29, 2016, 09:57:20 PM
#47
It does seem a little bit sketchy to me, though. Perhaps some thorough investigation and people that are great at maths should go into the statistics of this.
legendary
Activity: 2557
Merit: 1886
January 29, 2016, 09:18:17 PM
#46
Whoa, so it allowed a bet of 9 BTC?? How is that possible?

The restriction is on profit, not wagered. You could wager >1000 BTC if you wanted, as long as you weren't trying to win too much



To me ~0.29% seems more realistic than 35.3028752%. So assuming the bet was a max bet (which it probably wasn't but was close) the house overbet by a factor of roughly 120x. Good job!

While it's more realistic, I think it doesn't pass the sniff test either. I believe the absolute lower bound would be the house edge, which in this case is ~0.92%.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
January 29, 2016, 09:09:07 PM
#45
Within Kelly? 

This is after the bankroll took big hit from 121x

Outside paid 29,900,000

The max bet fluctuates constantly right?


Wager: 9,997,748 bits

Profit: +999,774.80 bits

Investor Profit: -1000417.2563276 bits

App Dev Profit: 642.456327602647 bits

House Edge: 0.96%

https://www.moneypot.com/bets/18559115

Whoa, so it allowed a bet of 9 BTC?? How is that possible?
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Vires in numeris.
January 29, 2016, 09:08:03 PM
#44
If no one else does it, i'll go through it for that bet and see what it should be

My (untested) calculations:

The kelly for that bet is a staggering 0.353028752 (aka the house should risk 35% of it's bankroll)?! wtf?

Seems rather unintuitive, and likely I made a mistake (and possibly twice, once when first writing the generalize kelly code).

Most of the work is in inverting the bet to be from the houses perspective, so here's what I came up with if it is of any help to anyone:

Well 35% seems rather large, but I believe that was within the range of the ~150-160 BTC bankroll, so bet #18530298 at least doesn't seem fishy that way. What's fishy is the 35%. So I went and calculated the kelly criterion for that  payout table. Here is some Haskell code:

Code:
table :: [(Double, Double)]
table =
  [ ( 65536     / (2^32) , 1 - 121.0 ), ( 749731840 / (2^32) , 1 - 0.5   )
  , ( 1048576   / (2^32) , 1 - 47.0  ), ( 524812288 / (2^32) , 1 - 1.0   )
  , ( 7864320   / (2^32) , 1 - 13.0  ), ( 286261248 / (2^32) , 1 - 1.4   )
  , ( 36700160  / (2^32) , 1 - 5.0   ), ( 119275520 / (2^32) , 1 - 3.0   )
  , ( 119275520 / (2^32) , 1 - 3.0   ), ( 36700160  / (2^32) , 1 - 5.0   )
  , ( 286261248 / (2^32) , 1 - 1.4   ), ( 7864320   / (2^32) , 1 - 13.0  )
  , ( 524812288 / (2^32) , 1 - 1.0   ), ( 1048576   / (2^32) , 1 - 47.0  )
  , ( 749731840 / (2^32) , 1 - 0.5   ), ( 65536     / (2^32) , 1 - 121.0 )
  , ( 843448320 / (2^32) , 1 - 0.3   )
  ]

ps = sum [ p | (p,_) <- table ] -- Should be 1.0

fun, der, der2 :: Double -> Double
fun x = sum [ p * log (1 + b * x) | (p,b) <- table ]
der x = sum [ p * b / (1 + b * x) | (p,b) <- table ]
der2 x = sum [ - b^2 * p / (1 + b * x)^2 | (p,b) <- table ]

newtons :: Double -> Double
newtons x = if abs ((x - x') / x) < 1e-10 then x' else newtons x'
  where x' = x - der x / der2 x

kelly :: String
kelly = show (100 * newtons 0) ++ "%"

Which tells me

Code:
λ> kelly
"0.29419062808971297%"
λ>

To me ~0.29% seems more realistic than 35.3028752%. So assuming the bet was a max bet (which it probably wasn't but was close) the house overbet by a factor of roughly 120x.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
January 29, 2016, 08:37:21 PM
#43
...Will take at least a few months to recover...

Maybe.

Or maybe he'll give it all back and then some in the next 20 minutes.




If you had won such a big amount of bitcoins, would you return it?
I don't think so  Roll Eyes
Gamblers who are addicted often end up continuing to play, even after they win a large amount. Even though he was able to get 16 grand off MoneyPot, the temptation to play may arise again and he could potentially lose it all. Emotion definitely affects you hard.

That is true. After winning gamblers start thinking today they may be lucky so they can try some more time to win even bigger and mostly they will lose there winnings and only smart guys will withdraw either full or partial amount to enjoy there success.

Once people addicted to gambling both winning and losing are problems for them because if they lose than they will try for winning and if they win and they will try for more profits so they don't have any intention to stop so gambling addiction is very bad for any one.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1005
January 29, 2016, 08:06:15 PM
#42
...Will take at least a few months to recover...

Maybe.

Or maybe he'll give it all back and then some in the next 20 minutes.




If you had won such a big amount of bitcoins, would you return it?
I don't think so  Roll Eyes
Gamblers who are addicted often end up continuing to play, even after they win a large amount. Even though he was able to get 16 grand off MoneyPot, the temptation to play may arise again and he could potentially lose it all. Emotion definitely affects you hard.

That is true. After winning gamblers start thinking today they may be lucky so they can try some more time to win even bigger and mostly they will lose there winnings and only smart guys will withdraw either full or partial amount to enjoy there success.
klf
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
January 29, 2016, 07:38:09 PM
#41
Well, anybody who bets all maniac like that on games with a house edge is bound to throw it all back sooner or later...variance is a sour apple at times.  It's easy come and easy go in the minds of those who have the bug.  But, wow...it looked like investors were just cruising for awhile there...now a third of their investment gone! Ouch!  

In gambling site investments it is common and these are very high risky investments so no need to worry much. That's why we shouldn't put all our money in any one site to reduce our loses like this. Very rarely people win like this big amount from gambling and if he clever than he should withdraw his winnings.
legendary
Activity: 2557
Merit: 1886
January 29, 2016, 07:37:05 PM
#40
If no one else does it, i'll go through it for that bet and see what it should be

My (untested) calculations:

The kelly for that bet is a staggering 0.353028752 (aka the house should risk 35% of it's bankroll)?! wtf?

Seems rather unintuitive, and likely I made a mistake (and possibly twice, once when first writing the generalize kelly code).

Most of the work is in inverting the bet to be from the houses perspective, so here's what I came up with if it is of any help to anyone:

Code:
     { profit: -4800000000, probability: 0.0000152587890625 },
     { profit: -1840000000, probability: 0.000244140625 },
     { profit: -480000000, probability: 0.0018310546875 },
     { profit: -160000000, probability: 0.008544921875 },
     { profit: -80000000, probability: 0.02777099609375 },
     { profit: -16000000, probability: 0.066650390625 },
     { profit: -0, probability: 0.1221923828125 },
     { profit: 20000000, probability: 0.174560546875 },
     { profit: 28000000, probability: 0.196380615234375 },
     { profit: 20000000, probability: 0.174560546875 },
     { profit: -0, probability: 0.1221923828125 },
     { profit: -16000000, probability: 0.066650390625 },
     { profit: -80000000, probability: 0.02777099609375 },
     { profit: -160000000, probability: 0.008544921875 },
     { profit: -480000000, probability: 0.0018310546875 },
     { profit: -1840000000, probability: 0.000244140625 },
     { profit: -4800000000, probability: 0.0000152587890625 }
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2047
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
January 29, 2016, 07:13:41 PM
#39
Within Kelly? 

This is after the bankroll took big hit from 121x

Outside paid 29,900,000

The max bet fluctuates constantly right?


Wager: 9,997,748 bits

Profit: +999,774.80 bits

Investor Profit: -1000417.2563276 bits

App Dev Profit: 642.456327602647 bits

House Edge: 0.96%

https://www.moneypot.com/bets/18559115
legendary
Activity: 2557
Merit: 1886
January 29, 2016, 07:07:44 PM
#38
When I set up the payout table like that myself it tells me the max bet is around 9k bits, so I don't understand why this bet was allowed to go ahead.

 

That's definitely a huge underestimate. The max bet should be considerably larger.

Although, I'm quite surprised it would allow 0.4 BTC bet -- that seems a bit much to me.  By any chance, did the owners of MoneyPot.com change the bankroll risk to a 10x kelly?


If anyone wants a worked example of figuring out the max bet for a normal kelly the maths is this:
http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/662104/kelly-criterion-with-more-than-two-outcomes

If no one else does it, i'll go through it for that bet and see what it should be
legendary
Activity: 3626
Merit: 4440
January 29, 2016, 06:58:57 PM
#37
I just checked his bet history. He made almost all his profit from a single bet:

  https://www.moneypot.com/bets/18530298

The payout table was set to:

  121 47 13 5 3 1.4 1.0 0.5 0.3 0.5 1.0 1.4 3 5 13 47 121

and he hit the 121x

He bet 400k bits and so made a profit of 48 BTC.

When I set up the payout table like that myself it tells me the max bet is around 9k bits, so I don't understand why this bet was allowed to go ahead.

  [/snip]

This is in agreement with the moneypot FAQ, which says:

  [/snip]

I never looked in detail at how the kelly criterion works when there are multiple mutually exclusive outcomes like in the case of plinko bets; maybe it says we should risk this much. Could someone look into it and see?

That is really interesting...nice work dooglus. I'm assuming the max bet would be lower now after such a huge loss, but it wouldn't have dropped from 400k to 9k on that line.
he is saying that the 400k bet should have never played in the 1st place
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
January 29, 2016, 06:46:34 PM
#36
I just checked his bet history. He made almost all his profit from a single bet:

  https://www.moneypot.com/bets/18530298

The payout table was set to:

  121 47 13 5 3 1.4 1.0 0.5 0.3 0.5 1.0 1.4 3 5 13 47 121

and he hit the 121x

He bet 400k bits and so made a profit of 48 BTC.

When I set up the payout table like that myself it tells me the max bet is around 9k bits, so I don't understand why this bet was allowed to go ahead.

  [/snip]

This is in agreement with the moneypot FAQ, which says:

  [/snip]

I never looked in detail at how the kelly criterion works when there are multiple mutually exclusive outcomes like in the case of plinko bets; maybe it says we should risk this much. Could someone look into it and see?

That is really interesting...nice work dooglus. I'm assuming the max bet would be lower now after such a huge loss, but it wouldn't have dropped from 400k to 9k on that line.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1330
January 29, 2016, 06:40:13 PM
#35
I had quotes around "suspicious" because several people in the MP thread were calling them that.    Until there is a investigation of the moneypot logs, no one knows if they were real, or if the guy was just insanely lucky.   I know the staff is looking at it though.

I just checked his bet history. He made almost all his profit from a single bet:

  https://www.moneypot.com/bets/18530298

The payout table was set to:

  121 47 13 5 3 1.4 1.0 0.5 0.3 0.5 1.0 1.4 3 5 13 47 121

and he hit the 121x

He bet 400k bits and so made a profit of 48 BTC.

When I set up the payout table like that myself it tells me the max bet is around 9k bits, so I don't understand why this bet was allowed to go ahead.

 

This is in agreement with the moneypot FAQ, which says:

 

I never looked in detail at how the kelly criterion works when there are multiple mutually exclusive outcomes like in the case of plinko bets; maybe it says we should risk this much. Could someone look into it and see?
sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 250
January 29, 2016, 06:02:12 PM
#34
If it's fair won they they have to lower the max bet
By my understanding that is pretty much automatic in MoneyPot and already lowered to respond current bankroll. Apps can have not updated info, but user get error message if bet is too high Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1000
January 29, 2016, 05:57:14 PM
#33
Moneypot seemed one of the only few sites where you could expect not to lose money but in Bitcoin all these sites usually scam you one way of another. I'm not implying they did it on purpose but something always happened, it's sad that Bitcoin always have this tainted image that is very true. It's just the problem of being unregulated.

To be clear, if you invest in a Casino, you shouldn't be losing money in the long run, there's actually no risk, the Casinos always win right!? So please explain why all these sites can't promise or guarantee at least some profit in the long run (I understand you can lose for some days due to a bad streak).
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
January 29, 2016, 05:53:12 PM
#32
In general all plinko type games are really risky I guess.
Eventually as an average it will look as if the game is in favor of the house.

But in general they are too risky since nobody knows on which multiplier will a ball pot.

Btw can anyone send me the seed of that revolutionary bet?
Moneypot needs to detect whether its flawed or not.
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 501
January 29, 2016, 04:12:23 PM
#31
Was this all legit win? Or it is another feat similar to HufflePuff exploiting the system? There is saying that the House always wins. And you see, that is not always true.
And it is a reminder: investing is not so different from gambling, you still can lose your money.

There has no confirmation yet from the new owner and since no one posted about withdrawal delay from moneypot then we can assume that the player has withdrawn some of its bitcoin already so it could be considered as a legit win. Someone won over 50 btc as well IIRC from dustdice but soon after that investor got its luck back

The owner has just confirmed regarding this big winning https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13715691 , he said "suspicious bets" means that he think there were something wrong on moneypity's bets. Lets wait for moneypot staff to investigate this..


I had quotes around "suspicious" because several people in the MP thread were calling them that.    Until there is a investigation of the moneypot logs, no one knows if they were real, or if the guy was just insanely lucky.   I know the staff is looking at it though.
I think all people who won such amount will be called suspicious and will be well checked. If it's fair won they they have to lower the max bet now there are some problems about the amount they lost.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1035
January 29, 2016, 03:56:11 PM
#30
Wow! Nice hit!
I was always sure that the casino has to earn for themselves. It seems that not always ..
Do you know any more pages / casino where you can invest this way?
copper member
Activity: 2562
Merit: 2510
Spear the bees
January 29, 2016, 03:45:38 PM
#29
...Will take at least a few months to recover...

Maybe.

Or maybe he'll give it all back and then some in the next 20 minutes.




If you had won such a big amount of bitcoins, would you return it?
I don't think so  Roll Eyes
Gamblers who are addicted often end up continuing to play, even after they win a large amount. Even though he was able to get 16 grand off MoneyPot, the temptation to play may arise again and he could potentially lose it all. Emotion definitely affects you hard.
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