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Topic: 🌟🎲🌟 MoneyPot.com - page 11. (Read 119068 times)

legendary
Activity: 2895
Merit: 1135
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple Games, Multiple Coins
December 15, 2016, 04:22:03 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...
Don't make false statements here. Crypto-Games.net Rainbot funds come from owners and donators, investors have nothing with it.

What concerns investments
We (owners) take 30% of the profit/losses! and 70% belongs to investors. Detailed explanation is in our FAQ.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
December 15, 2016, 03:17:45 AM
Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
December 15, 2016, 03:10:32 AM
Again, my argument is that you are painting a picture that doesn't truly reflect the commission.  We don't take a commission based off of profit, but theoretical profit (which in the long run should be the same).

I presented hard numbers. Investors have earned about 0% of the profits, while the site and the apps have between them earned about 100% of the profits.

How does that not truly reflect the commission that has been paid? The truth of the matter is that investors have paid a little over 100% of their profits in commission (to the site and the apps).

We take 20% of the house edge as a fee.  50% of the house edge is given to App Owners

And that is what I said happens. You (the house + the apps, combined) take 70% of the expected profit. So if the actual profit *is* 70% of the expected profit then you take *all* of the profit, leaving the investors with none. That is what had happened last I looked, as shown in the screenshot I posted.

What I'm also saying is that back when Moneypot was running well above equity, where an example could have been where investors had 95% of the profit, it would be a borderline lie to say "It is like investors are paying only a 5% commission on profits".

I wasn't paying attention back then. If investors had paid only 5% commission on profits then it wouldn't be a lie to claim that they had paid 5% commission on profits.

I'm not acting like anything, and not pretending anything.

I view your intent of post the same as if I had come to your thread and said Dooglus is indirectly responsible, and a major reason, for the loss of hundreds of stolen bitcoin.  

Who lost some stolen coins? I don't know what you're referring to here, but it's likely unrelated to the point we're discussing.

Maybe this is the old "dooglus vouched for scam casinos" troll? If so, it never happened. I never vouched for any casino other than my own.

But... it's not libel if it's true right?

Right. To be libelous a statement has to be:

* false and
* known to be false by the libeller and
* damaging to the libeled party
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1021
December 15, 2016, 02:41:51 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

You really can't compare BetKing to any dice site now as it's not the same business model at all.

Before we took 25% profit and 25% of edge on wager when we allowed "bankroll investment". Higher commission than some sites but no other site made anywhere near as much for investors in the past 2 years.

However now we don't have bankroll investors, it's private funded by me.
What I'm doing now is selling 30% of shares in the business, not a bankroll.

So it's really not comparable.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 502
December 15, 2016, 02:38:57 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
December 15, 2016, 02:38:16 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering these costs -- investors are.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 502
December 15, 2016, 02:29:53 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now
legendary
Activity: 2018
Merit: 1108
December 15, 2016, 02:13:03 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2371
December 15, 2016, 02:07:15 AM

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.
legendary
Activity: 2018
Merit: 1108
December 15, 2016, 01:52:55 AM



It's pretty clear that I used those statistics directly, and didn't make anything up.

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006
December 15, 2016, 01:26:23 AM



It's pretty clear that I used those statistics directly, and didn't make anything up.

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 502
December 15, 2016, 12:53:57 AM
Is this some new low in bitcoin gambling industry? Back in the day I remember you guys were hunting for non provably fair casino and yet now it seema you guys are hunting for competitor? Quite a story indeed and I didnt expect that coming from you guys

You said it yourself - back in the day. I think people are always looking for the next new thing and if a site doesn't change, then they start looking. Hopefully v2 will change people's minds and bring MP back to its former glory
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1016
December 15, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
Is this some new low in bitcoin gambling industry? Back in the day I remember you guys were hunting for non provably fair casino and yet now it seema you guys are hunting for competitor? Quite a story indeed and I didnt expect that coming from you guys

Edit : im just expressing what I feel, not that Im an expecrt in this matter
legendary
Activity: 1135
Merit: 1002
Developer
December 15, 2016, 12:08:37 AM

Their bankroll is still over 400 BTC, which is more than 20 BTC hard limit, which is why I ask.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 502
December 14, 2016, 11:53:24 PM
legendary
Activity: 1135
Merit: 1002
Developer
hero member
Activity: 568
Merit: 500
https://bit-exo.com/?ref=gamblingbad
December 14, 2016, 09:18:53 PM
Dooglus is indirectly responsible, and a major reason, for the loss of hundreds of stolen bitcoin.  

If you wish to attack people over the indirect effects from their actions, you may wish to start by addressing the thousands of young girls who were raped and murdered indirectly due to your actions over the last 16 years on this planet.

Why only the girls and not the boys?
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
December 14, 2016, 09:08:44 PM
Dooglus is indirectly responsible, and a major reason, for the loss of hundreds of stolen bitcoin.  

If you wish to attack people over the indirect effects from their actions, you may wish to start by addressing the thousands of young girls who were raped and murdered indirectly due to your actions over the last 16 years on this planet.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
December 14, 2016, 07:48:08 PM
According to https://dicesites.com/moneypot the profit is 541.6 BTC, but 334.7 BTC (62%) went to the app owners and 126.4 BTC (23%) went to MoneyPot itself, leaving just 80.4 BTC (15%) for the investors. I'm not sure how that is worked out, but when investors are taking ~100% of the risk it doesn't seem fair that they get only 15% of the profit when the expected and actual profits are so close together. It's like the investors are paying an 85% commission on their profits.

What the actual f Dooglus?  Blatant Libel?

It's not libel if it's true. I took the numbers from dicesites.com and calculated the percentages.

For the record, here are two screenshots side by side of the stats on https://dicesites.com/moneypot that I referred to in the post you accused of being libelous.



It's pretty clear that I used those statistics directly, and didn't make anything up.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
December 14, 2016, 07:36:51 PM
According to https://dicesites.com/moneypot the profit is 541.6 BTC, but 334.7 BTC (62%) went to the app owners and 126.4 BTC (23%) went to MoneyPot itself, leaving just 80.4 BTC (15%) for the investors. I'm not sure how that is worked out, but when investors are taking ~100% of the risk it doesn't seem fair that they get only 15% of the profit when the expected and actual profits are so close together. It's like the investors are paying an 85% commission on their profits.

What the actual f Dooglus?  Blatant Libel?

It's not libel if it's true. I took the numbers from dicesites.com and calculated the percentages.

You know very well that we don't take that much commission and you are intentionally misleading our customers and directly hurting us on purpose (70 Bitcoin withdrawn immediately after your comment).  

All I know is what dicesites.com told me. Is their information incorrect? Did the app owners not really take 334.7 BTC (62%) and did the site itself not take 126.4 BTC (23%) , leaving the investors only 80.4 BTC (15%) of profit? If the numbers on dicesites.com are incorrect you should work with them to fix the numbers rather than falsely accusing me of libel. I don't want to hurt you at all. But if people pulled out of the site when they learned that historically investors have only kept 15% of the profits then presumably that's because they didn't know the information before, and didn't like it. I think the expression is "don't shoot the messenger".

We take 20% of the house edge (less than Dean's 25% of house edge and 25% profit, or Bit-Dice's 30% of house edge), give 50% of the house edge to app owners (because there are multiple sites that investors connect to), and investors are subject to 30% of the house edge.

So you're telling me that investors should expect to lose 20% of their profits to you, and a further 50% to the app owners, and so rather than an effective 85% loss that seems to have happened they should "only" be losing 70%?

While Dean's 50% commission and bitdice's 30% commission are obviously pretty high, you're paying for the bankroll management and the game in a single payment. At moneypot you're paying 20% for the bankroll management and 50% for the game, making a total of 70% of the expected profit - that's the highest effective commission rate I've heard of.

I was kind of surprised that investors only kept 15% of their profits instead of the expected 30% when the actual profits were around 80% of the expected profits. Intuitively it seems that when the expected and actual profits are so close together then the investor's take (15%) should be close to their expected take (30%), rather than just half of it. But I guess that intuition is incorrect. The problem is that the house and the apps get their 20% and 50% cuts of the house edge first out of the actual profit, so if the actual profit is less than 70% of the expected profit there is no profit at all left for the investors.

Checking dicesites.com again now, I see:

  total profit: 463.1 BTC
  house commission: 127.6 BTC (27.6% of actual profit, 18.7% of expected profit)
  application commission: 337.8 BTC (72.9% of actual profit, 49.6% of expected profit)
  investors: -2.3 BTC (-0.5% of actual profit, -0.3% of expected profit)

Perhaps a better response would've been "Hey, our investors made 50% of what they should've. Yours only 30%"  or something. ( I <3 twisting statistics)

That's pretty clever, if obscure. For those who missed the reference, Just-Dice's actual profit was only 30% of its expected profit. Just-Dice took a 10% commission on actual investor profits, so investors kept 90% of all the site profits. At moneypot the site and the apps together take 70% of the expected profit, so if the actual profit is 70% or less of the expected profit (as it currently is) the investors take a loss (as they currently do) even if the actual profit is positive (as it currently is).

If there are any factual errors in my statements, please point them out to me. I really am not aiming to spread misinformation about moneypot or about anything else for that matter.
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