Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft - page 8.

dbbit

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Quote from: AnonyMint on February 27, 2014, 07:18:05 PM

My 2 BTC were stolen when (using localbitcoins) I couldn't find a buyer to deposit to my USA bank account and I was in a rush. So I sold to someone who paid me in paypal. He had stolen access to someone's paypal account and so the payment was reversed.

Ahh, now I understand why you posted this!

With all due respect, you're an idiot for selling something via Paypal in person (or to any non-verified address). If you exchanged cash or gold for PayPal in person you would have been in the exact same situation. That doesn't mean cash or gold is bad.

Learn how to think for yourself. Be gladded the price of the lesson was only 2 BTC - it could have been worse.

Keyser Soze

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What makes you so certain that the nemo dat rule will be applied to bitcoin? Isn't it at least plausible for a court to treat it similar to legal tender or other negotiable instruments?

AnonyMint

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Quote from: practicaldreamer on February 27, 2014, 07:11:32 PM

The question then becomes - is BTC more prone to theft than say theft via credit cards (for eg) ? Is this what you are saying ? I can't myself see why BTC would necessarily be more prone to theft.

Much more prone to theft because it is online.

And many coins are aggregated into one place (e.g. centralized exchanges) where the economy-of-scale for stealing is higher.

My 2 BTC were stolen when (using localbitcoins) I couldn't find a buyer to deposit to my USA bank account and I was in a rush. So I sold to someone who paid me in paypal. He had stolen access to someone's paypal account and so the payment was reversed.

And the point is that coins circulate, so eventually they could be stolen multiple times. Angry

This is not a moral and upstanding system.

We could potentially fix this with more technology (e.g. decentralized exchanges) and better education (do not use irreversible payment, offline decentralized wallets as standard, etc).

Or using a whitelisting system such as described by practicaldreamer (but then it is no longer decentralized and it becomes owned by the establishment).

AnonyMint

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Quote from: ?? on ??

In the end, clawing back bitcoins will stand no ground when you are the number 12 holder in a range of 30+

Law enforcement will clawback against any one along the chain of ownership that they can. You are providing more opportunities for them to find someone they can prosecute.

Anonymity is going to be very, very important.

Otherwise move to a system of whitelisting such as described upthread by practicaldreamer.

practicaldreamer

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Quote from: AnonyMint on February 27, 2014, 06:59:35 PM

The point is that the law is that stolen property can be clawed back.

A large % of BTC is stolen. You are probably holding some stolen BTC now. The longer that BTC trades, the higher the percentage of theft.

In the fiat economy only cash would not be able to be accounted for in the same way as you describe above re.theft/BTC. That is, only cash transactions are anonymous.
Cash only represents around 3% of the money in circulation in the economy.

The question then becomes - is BTC more prone to theft than say theft via credit cards (for eg) ? Is this what you are saying ? I can't myself see why BTC would necessarily be more prone to theft.

AnonyMint

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Quote from: testigodehumanidad on February 27, 2014, 06:55:31 PM

Could you kindly explain how people holding and using bitcoin are going to be "jailbirds" and "destitute"?

Try reading the OP and the links it contains.

Did you read CoinCube's posts? Did you read the linked thread?

The point is that the law is that stolen property can be clawed back.

A large % of BTC is stolen. You are probably holding some stolen BTC now. The longer that BTC trades, the higher the percentage of theft. Eventually all BTC will have been stolen multiple times. This is yet another reason that perpetual debasement (which Bitcoin doesn't have) is highly desirable, because virgin mined coins don't have this stigma.

The chain of ownership it is on the public ledger. All theft can later be traced ex post facto (at any time in the future when the theft is reported and investigated). The Statute of Limitations would probably be at least 5 years.

Quote

Ie: rs claims coins were stolen, sells them to persom b would withdraws to btce.com.. mtgox gives person b other coins from their hot wallet because the trade confirmation hasnt completed. The hot wallet coins have no connection to the stolen coins. They now belong to mtgox which claimed bankruptcy.

The Feds recently subpoened Mt.Gox to force them to retain trading records, so the chain of ownership will be known to law enforcement.

testigodehumanidad

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Could you kindly explain how people holding and using bitcoin are going to be "jailbirds" and "destitute"?

AnonyMint

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Quote from: practicaldreamer on February 27, 2014, 06:26:57 PM

How about this going forward - financial services providers obtain insurance to cover them in the event of theft/fraud etc, and on the basis that they demonstrably exercise a duty of care and dilligence in their business dealings and in their fiduciary duty to their customers (it may be that the insurer requires a compliance with regulation perhaps ?).

I buy 5 BTC on BTC-E that subsequently proves to have been stolen from XYZ exchange (and customers A ,B and C) - customers A, B and C receive their stolen BTC back. I (and BTC-E) receive recompense from the insurance company of exchange XYZ.

Yes the banksters+government will take control of Bitcoin. That is of course the only solution. And of course it appears to have been designed to fall into their lap.

And who was Satoshi again? (Hint: most realize he was likely an NSA researcher or group of NSA researchers)

Bitcoin is the honeypot to suck in all the gullible Libertarians to their demise. And it helps to spread the NWO digital currency, which is taken over eventually.

practicaldreamer

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How about this going forward - financial services providers obtain insurance to cover them in the event of theft/fraud etc, and on the basis that they demonstrably exercise a duty of care and dilligence in their business dealings and in their fiduciary duty to their customers (it may be that the insurer requires a compliance with regulation perhaps ?).

I buy 5 BTC on BTC-E that subsequently proves to have been stolen from XYZ exchange (and customers A ,B and C) - customers A, B and C receive their stolen BTC back. I (and BTC-E) receive recompense from the insurance company of exchange XYZ.

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: ethought on February 27, 2014, 06:08:06 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on February 27, 2014, 06:07:38 PM

Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole yourself. Please obtain more Bitcoins.

I will.

He's an foolish person, and possibly has a mental crypto disease or some sort of bitcoinfobia.
My 2 cents.

AnonyMint

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That is great. Because one of us will be correct. And so now the line in the sand is drawn.

On one side is the abyss. Feel free to stay on that side of the line.

ethought

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Quote from: AnonyMint on February 27, 2014, 06:07:38 PM

Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole yourself. Please obtain more Bitcoins.

I will.

AnonyMint

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Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole for yourself. Continue to obtain more Bitcoins. It is your destiny.

ethought

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Quote from: AnonyMint on February 27, 2014, 06:04:00 PM

The price will continue to go up. To suck more of you in to owing larger amounts of clawback.

Please buy.

I used to think you made some interesting points Anonymint, however after reading your OP and recent posts from you I think you are teetering dangerously into crazy person territory.

Lauda

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Terminated.

The less, the more. ~Bitcoins' law
You're spreading FUD again, why?

AnonyMint

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The price will continue to go up. To suck more of you in to owing larger amounts of clawback.

Please buy.

Selling won't make the culpability go away. Once you own Bitcoins, you are screwed.

Make all the posts you want, you are still screwed. Cry

You think I am happy about this?! Angry

Meuh6879

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actual economy crash like mtgox crash ... because, economy use "fraudulate paper money" to supply the world.
price up.

so, bitcoin is the next : regulate money (not by the same that they have invented the actual economy).
they can always "play with the wallstreet" ... but, when they lost, the lost "really" !

BittBurger

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Why do dummies like you think posting isolated scary posts on a discussion forum will make the price drop, so you can buy cheaper?

Stop being a complete idiot.

One one-millionth of the people who own bitcoin will see your thread. And therefore the price wont drop because of it.

-B-

AnonyMint

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Topic: Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft - page 8. (Read 14488 times)