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Topic: Moving towards user activated soft fork activation - page 4. (Read 24460 times)

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
I think they are just bluffing - both sides.

Instead they keep letting their minions to spread FUD and escalate havoc even further.

It's actually very sad to watch how both the parties are playing some pathetic politics which aren't going to change anything about bitcoin, except its perception among people who don't understand it.

FUD is how you motivate people in the tech centers of the world. Think of how much fear they feel from the propaganda they watch every day, showing terror attacks. Fear works.

UASF was pathetic, a non-starter. Hacking Unlimited was a cheap shot, but it worked. Unlimited's 40% mining support is starting to be a major factor. Core is dead silent and dead set on pumping Segwit, which is on life support.

Luckily this ugly blocksize struggle is not playing out too much in the mainstream. It's just too complicated for them.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
I think they are just bluffing - both sides.
 One side  claiming that it has enough hash power and interest to enforce controversial protocol changes.
 The other side claiming that bitcoin can either go without the mining or continue to exist with a different POW function.
Both sides are talking bullshit and on both sides you have important people who know it very well, but won't admit that it's only bluffing.
Instead they keep letting their minions to spread FUD and escalate havoc even further.

It's actually very sad to watch how both the parties are playing some pathetic politics which aren't going to change anything about bitcoin, except its perception among people who don't understand it.
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 507
You missed my point. If the mining process from the begining would have been easier, like downloading the wallet and pressing button to start it, now we would have really decentralized coin. But from the begining all things related to BTC is too difficult for ordinary people to adopt it.

Ech, you kids... Smiley

Believe me or not, but the mining process was that easy at the beginning.
You had to check the option "generate coins" in the pop-up menu and they'd sometimes just appear in your wallet.

But that times are long gone. Now you need a bloody power plant to compete on this market.
Nobody could have stopped it and I seriously doubt anyone will be able to...
It's a mining arm race and nobody is really in control.

Which brings us back to the topic: if anyone actually tries to change the bitcoin protocol while not having the mining majority, because he thinks that "users majority" or "economic majority" is just enough, this will be his funeral.
Or in other words, one more time: UASF without mining majority can never succeed, because it's against the nature of bitcoin.
Anyone who doesn't understand this simple fact is not really a very smart bitcoin developer.

Core's behavior is really strange to me. Those guys are smarter than most of the rest of the world, so it's obvious they know how it all works, and what will be the result of going to war with miners, but somehow they're limited to their current stance. Normally, you could expect reasonable discussion with arguments on both sides, and finally a compromise, but surprisingly it's not happening for some reason. Usually, if you have no idea what something is all about, or why something obvious isn't happening, then it's probably about money and/or power.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
You missed my point. If the mining process from the begining would have been easier, like downloading the wallet and pressing button to start it, now we would have really decentralized coin. But from the begining all things related to BTC is too difficult for ordinary people to adopt it.

Ech, you kids... Smiley

Believe me or not, but the mining process was that easy at the beginning.
You had to check the option "generate coins" in the pop-up menu and they'd sometimes just appear in your wallet.

But that times are long gone. Now you need a bloody power plant to compete on this market.
Nobody could have stopped it and I seriously doubt anyone will be able to...
It's a mining arm race and nobody is really in control.

Which brings us back to the topic: if anyone actually tries to change the bitcoin protocol while not having the mining majority, because he thinks that "users majority" or "economic majority" is just enough, this will be his funeral.
Or in other words, one more time: UASF without mining majority can never succeed, because it's against the nature of bitcoin.
Anyone who doesn't understand this simple fact is not really a very smart bitcoin developer.
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 507
The biggest problems for BTC and all crypto currency:

1. Its centralized. It will never be a decentralized system until all mining process will be as easy as downloading your bitcoin core wallet. Actually, it should be done like this: you can activate mining by clicking one button in your wallet. Now still the whole bitcoin thing is understandable only to small percentage of people in the world, and mining is only possible to those who are advanced level in tech and programming. If BTC has a vision to be better and more popular than fiat, it should be made much more easier to use and to mine. (Soon the whole mining power will be in few hands and it will no longer be different from fiat).

2. Voting power should be not only in miners hands, but in ordinary bitcoins users too. Now BTC is facing the problem that it is slowly transforming to the ordinary money system, where the whole power have federal reserve bank, and here the control is slowly taken by big mining pools and wealthy BTC holders. They want to make decisions to the rest of the users, because they think they can make better decisions.

The whole situation sucks, and the current path of BTC is wrong. Ordinary user with his wallet, should be a miner too, mining rewards should be split among everyone fairly, all have the voting power.

Well, I can understand your pain, and how nice would it be to go back in time and have yet another chance to mine easy BTC when the price was $1 or even less, but unfortunately it's old good 2017 :-) However, if you had that chance again, and knew nothing of what you know today, would you really be interested in Satohi's idea?

You missed my point. If the mining process from the begining would have been easier, like downloading the wallet and pressing button to start it, now we would have really decentralized coin. But from the begining all things related to BTC is too difficult for ordinary people to adopt it.

The beginnings of any technology is difficult for ordinary people. Look at Windows 3.11, or Windows 95 and so on. Do you remember how difficult it was to install device drivers back in late 90's? And now you don't even bother about it in modern Windows or Linux distros.
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
The biggest problems for BTC and all crypto currency:

1. Its centralized. It will never be a decentralized system until all mining process will be as easy as downloading your bitcoin core wallet. Actually, it should be done like this: you can activate mining by clicking one button in your wallet. Now still the whole bitcoin thing is understandable only to small percentage of people in the world, and mining is only possible to those who are advanced level in tech and programming. If BTC has a vision to be better and more popular than fiat, it should be made much more easier to use and to mine. (Soon the whole mining power will be in few hands and it will no longer be different from fiat).

2. Voting power should be not only in miners hands, but in ordinary bitcoins users too. Now BTC is facing the problem that it is slowly transforming to the ordinary money system, where the whole power have federal reserve bank, and here the control is slowly taken by big mining pools and wealthy BTC holders. They want to make decisions to the rest of the users, because they think they can make better decisions.

The whole situation sucks, and the current path of BTC is wrong. Ordinary user with his wallet, should be a miner too, mining rewards should be split among everyone fairly, all have the voting power.

Well, I can understand your pain, and how nice would it be to go back in time and have yet another chance to mine easy BTC when the price was $1 or even less, but unfortunately it's old good 2017 :-) However, if you had that chance again, and knew nothing of what you know today, would you really be interested in Satohi's idea?

You missed my point. If the mining process from the begining would have been easier, like downloading the wallet and pressing button to start it, now we would have really decentralized coin. But from the begining all things related to BTC is too difficult for ordinary people to adopt it.
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 507
The biggest problems for BTC and all crypto currency:

1. Its centralized. It will never be a decentralized system until all mining process will be as easy as downloading your bitcoin core wallet. Actually, it should be done like this: you can activate mining by clicking one button in your wallet. Now still the whole bitcoin thing is understandable only to small percentage of people in the world, and mining is only possible to those who are advanced level in tech and programming. If BTC has a vision to be better and more popular than fiat, it should be made much more easier to use and to mine. (Soon the whole mining power will be in few hands and it will no longer be different from fiat).

2. Voting power should be not only in miners hands, but in ordinary bitcoins users too. Now BTC is facing the problem that it is slowly transforming to the ordinary money system, where the whole power have federal reserve bank, and here the control is slowly taken by big mining pools and wealthy BTC holders. They want to make decisions to the rest of the users, because they think they can make better decisions.

The whole situation sucks, and the current path of BTC is wrong. Ordinary user with his wallet, should be a miner too, mining rewards should be split among everyone fairly, all have the voting power.

Well, I can understand your pain, and how nice would it be to go back in time and have yet another chance to mine easy BTC when the price was $1 or even less, but unfortunately it's old good 2017 :-) However, if you had that chance again, and knew nothing of what you know today, would you really be interested in Satohi's idea?
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
The biggest problems for BTC and all crypto currency:

1. Its centralized. It will never be a decentralized system until all mining process will be as easy as downloading your bitcoin core wallet. Actually, it should be done like this: you can activate mining by clicking one button in your wallet. Now still the whole bitcoin thing is understandable only to small percentage of people in the world, and mining is only possible to those who are advanced level in tech and programming. If BTC has a vision to be better and more popular than fiat, it should be made much more easier to use and to mine. (Soon the whole mining power will be in few hands and it will no longer be different from fiat).

2. Voting power should be not only in miners hands, but in ordinary bitcoins users too. Now BTC is facing the problem that it is slowly transforming to the ordinary money system, where the whole power have federal reserve bank, and here the control is slowly taken by big mining pools and wealthy BTC holders. They want to make decisions to the rest of the users, because they think they can make better decisions.

The whole situation sucks, and the current path of BTC is wrong. Ordinary user with his wallet, should be a miner too, mining rewards should be split among everyone fairly, all have the voting power.
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
Seems the only logical choice now since BU  attack is so close.  Oh yes, lets code the UASF and  PoW  change HF at the same time and get rid of those MFkers all at once.

You are fired!
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
SHA256 Mining trustless distributed critical consensus is the most important (and the most resilient) point of resistance of Bitcoin, against the governments and the financial oligarchy.

Fixed it for you.  Bitcoin mining is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I wish you could understand the difference between

A. signaling readiness for a new feature, and
B. voting for a new features

I know it's all very subtle and you don't do nuance, but please stop spreading the lie that miners are in charge of Bitcoin.

They are not and never will be.  That's not how any of this works.

Just because there are armed guards in front of the bank it doesn't mean those armed guards make executive decisions for the bank.

They are just hired muscle and may be fired if they forget their place and get uppity.
Problem is, we don't have a police force that can lock these muscle men up if they were to turn on the bank and become bank robbers themselves. I guess we're stuck with paying them off unless we hire someone bigger and stronger.

We do have such a police force.  It's called 'the economic majority.'


A little learning is a dangerous thing, or so they say.

So tell me iCE, whats the difference between

A. Acquiescence

and

B. Engagement

LOL what's the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground?   Cheesy
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 11
I think that a governing body may be behind this, and if that is the case...

We all know that's not a good thing
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

I wish you could understand the difference between

A. signaling readiness for a new feature, and

B. voting for a new feature

A little learning is a dangerous thing, or so they say.

So tell me iCE, whats the difference between

A. Acquiescence

and

B. Engagement
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Wrong

If I was an organisation like Western Union or the IMF (who can print fiat money, so it's essentially cost free to them),
Hey Carlton!   Grin

So the IMF can 'print' money?  lol.  You really have no idea, do you?

Quote
You're very naive

To engage you in 'debate'? Probably.

newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
SHA256 Mining trustless distributed critical consensus is the most important (and the most resilient) point of resistance of Bitcoin, against the governments and the financial oligarchy.

Fixed it for you.  Bitcoin mining is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I wish you could understand the difference between

A. signaling readiness for a new feature, and
B. voting for a new features

I know it's all very subtle and you don't do nuance, but please stop spreading the lie that miners are in charge of Bitcoin.

They are not and never will be.  That's not how any of this works.

Just because there are armed guards in front of the bank it doesn't mean those armed guards make executive decisions for the bank.

They are just hired muscle and may be fired if they forget their place and get uppity.
Problem is, we don't have a police force that can lock these muscle men up if they were to turn on the bank and become bank robbers themselves. I guess we're stuck with paying them off unless we hire someone bigger and stronger.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1028
SHA256 Mining trustless distributed critical consensus is the most important (and the most resilient) point of resistance of Bitcoin, against the governments and the financial oligarchy.

Fixed it for you.  Bitcoin mining is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I wish you could understand the difference between

A. signaling readiness for a new feature, and
B. voting for a new features

I know it's all very subtle and you don't do nuance, but please stop spreading the lie that miners are in charge of Bitcoin.

They are not and never will be.  That's not how any of this works.

Just because there are armed guards in front of the bank it doesn't mean those armed guards make executive decisions for the bank.

They are just hired muscle and may be fired if they forget their place and get uppity.

This is a really good analogy and works to make people understand the difference.

It's very sad to see some people falling for the BU scam wanting to make miners 100% the ones that call all the shots. How can a project like bitcoin be hostage of miners when miners are usually just your average businessman that keeps expanding his monopoly? how can you leave the project in hands of security guards while firing the high IQ people that get the best code done (Core devs)??
This whole thing is ridiculous.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
please stop spreading the lie that miners are in charge of Bitcoin

They are not and never will be.  That's not how any of this works.

Sure man.

You are in charge of bitcoin. You and the other people who are actually writing code and using Bitcoin for products and services.

Hope you feel better now.  Just don't come crying to me when one day you realize that this was actually a lie. Smiley


I wish you could understand the difference between

A. signaling readiness for a new feature, and

B. voting for a new feature
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1261
Is it safe to say that technically it's complete crap?

No. The only outcome of this thread is, that political arguments hidden behind a technical argumentation are a complete crap.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
They failed to destroy Bitcoin because it is not only about buying mining hardware, just like wining a war is not just about buying weapons.
There is a shit loads of logistics involved with using these weapons while there is a lot of human factor involved and the situation on the battle field is changing constantly.
They don't have an organisation in place that could handle manufacturing and deploying mining equipment quickly enough and then maintaining it (undisturbed) for long enough. And they have too much corruption inside.

The only way it can work now is because it is distributed and each mining operation is independent.
Some of them are actually secret.

For the big organisations that would want to get rid of bitcoin, it is much easier to corrupt people and conduct propaganda campaigns in the media.
And that's what they do.

Mining is the most important (and the most resilient) point of resistance of Bitcoin, against the governments and the financial oligarchy.

+1

Good to see some military metaphors used to describe the situation, and exactly on point!

It's naive to assume that state actors are not involved in bitcoin in a major way. Personally I believe the Chinese govt. is subsidizing the miners, possibly even precisely to prevent a 51% percent attack from US banks? Makes sense to me. As far as US government involvement, normally that would be done via US multinational corporations and Wall Street financiers, who are in fact "hiding in plain sight" in bitcoin. Wall Street wants to control bitcoin for their own profit, but will do the bidding of the Fed when the phone call comes in.  A Faustian bargain? There could well be financial execs "committing suicide" in their cars again... It will get more interesting in the next few years...

This topic is actually far more complicated than anyone here can comprehend.

This  Chinese  guy whose they made now the face of evil - whatever his name.
 If this is true what they say, that he actually owns major amount of the network's hashing power, he must have the shitest job in the world.
Imagine what kind of system he must be having in place to deal with the corruption among his technicians. Technicians that he needs to have and who he needs to trust, in order to have his operation going.
I'm betting that it's just a matter of time before the loses from the corruption among his employees will grow big enough to make his big mining unprofitable.
That's all assuming that he's running a big mining now, which I seriously doubt, exactly because of the reasons I just described.

Now, this brings me to the point that the corruption inside all kind of mining organizations (especially as big as governments)  and the free market around it, eventually favors small miners - such that can control their entire operation by themselves, or with a help from a closest friends. Such operations shall naturally be run under some secrecy, as this is the best protection from all kind of crooks, let alone the government eyes (taxes etc. )

And with all this, I'm predicting that bitcoin mining will become more and more distributed in the future.
The economy will make it happen.
I'm actually saying it has becoming like this already...

So all the fears about how the mining will be becoming more and more centralised - I think it's a bunch of bollocks and people spreading such info simply don't understand how the system works.
Which for fairness nobody fully understands, but certainly some understand it more than others.

Quote
Final note - this thread is almost devoid of technical debate on the UASF proposal. Is it safe to say that technically it's complete crap?
Yes
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
please stop spreading the lie that miners are in charge of Bitcoin

They are not and never will be.  That's not how any of this works.

Sure man.

You are in charge of bitcoin. You and the other people who are actually writing code and using Bitcoin for products and services.

Hope you feel better now.  Just don't come crying to me when one day you realize that this was actually a lie. Smiley
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