Moving towards user activated soft fork activation - page 8.

BitUsher

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Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 01:53:30 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on March 06, 2017, 01:40:49 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 01:36:30 PM

Oh.. right... But what about the miners who are blocking segwit due to other reasons?

Are they free to keep doing their job the way they like, or are you also planing to find some dirt on them?

Good for these miners. It is great they are inspiring us to develop a UASF and further test a POW HF backup because these are both long overdo.

If we can't survive Jihan and Ver attacking Bitcoin than we deserve to die. We will come out stronger in the end.

Man, this is some really heavy shit, next to which Jihan's recent threats sound like a sincere and friendly advise.

I just wonder who do you actually have in mind while saying "we" and taking such a crazy things.

Can you give me some names, or at least nicknames?

Bitcoin deserves to die if it can't survive these bozos , not humans.

Anyways , I'm getting my paperwallets ready to dump the split coins as Antpool just started mining BU blocks -

https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/block/00000000000000000204cd2c9840023f1434f3dcdd7f471e4b8c8638d14d7006

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: cellard on March 06, 2017, 02:00:14 PM

Jihan just wants profit, that's all.

Who doesn't?

I have no fear of his business exactly because I know that he just wants profit.
As the owner of (allegedly) the biggest bitcoin mining infrastructure he has the biggest interest in keeping the BTC price high.
Bitcoin devs, Roger Ver, Winklevoss twins, you or me - we can just cash out our stash and move on with our life.
For the owners of the mining infrastructure a drop in the BTC price is a far bigger issue.

cellard

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Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 01:01:19 PM

Quote from: thejaytiesto on March 06, 2017, 12:12:47 PM

From what i've read here, Jihan Wu controls 70% of the hashrate

Well, I have been reading that all his hashing power is signalling support for 2MB blocks...

But I only see 51 blocks (2.5%) with version 0x30000000 in the past 2016 block period.
And it's gone down to 15 (1.5%) inside the last 1000 blocks.

It teaches me to not believe anything that has been posted (and upvoted) on reddit - no mater the sub.

From what i've read Jihan Wu controls several different pools to make it look as if he doesn't have that much of a control of the hashrate. He is also playing a double game... he wants BU, but he doesn't want to go all in... he will betray BUcoiners if that means he can save his ass. Delusional BUcoiners think Jihan Wu cares about bitcoin and wants the best for it (whatever concept you think bitcoin is the "real" and best bitcoin, in this case they think BU is the "real" bitcoin) and is on their side with the BU, but what they don't realize is, Jihan just wants profit, that's all.

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: BitUsher on March 06, 2017, 01:40:49 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 01:36:30 PM

Oh.. right... But what about the miners who are blocking segwit due to other reasons?

Are they free to keep doing their job the way they like, or are you also planing to find some dirt on them?

Good for these miners. It is great they are inspiring us to develop a UASF and further test a POW HF backup because these are both long overdo.

If we can't survive Jihan and Ver attacking Bitcoin than we deserve to die. We will come out stronger in the end.

Man, this is some really heavy shit, next to which Jihan's recent threats sound like a sincere and friendly advise.

I just wonder who do you actually have in mind while saying "we" and taking such a crazy things.

Can you give me some names, or at least nicknames?

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 01:36:30 PM

Oh.. right... But what about the miners who are blocking segwit due to other reasons?

Are they free to keep doing their job the way they like, or are you also planing to find some dirt on them?

Good for these miners. It is great they are inspiring us to develop a UASF and further test a POW HF backup because these are both long overdo.

If we can't survive Jihan and Ver attacking Bitcoin than we deserve to die. We will come out stronger in the end.

piotr_n

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Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on March 06, 2017, 01:16:52 PM

Yes, we may(?) to some extent be using Jihan as shorthand for all miners blocking segwit due to Ver's bribes and bamboozling.

Oh.. right... But what about the miners who are blocking segwit due to other reasons?

Are they free to keep doing their job the way they like, or are you also planing to find some dirt on them?

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 08:15:49 AM

You're talking nonsense, man (check "nonsense" in a dictionary).

Segwit has currently 25% of support among the miners and your symbol of evil Jihan doesn't seem to control more than 20% of the current network's hashing power. It's probably closer to 10%

So enlighten us, please: who and how is "bamboozing and/or bribing" the remaining 55+% of the miners into blocking segwit?
These are mostly people who don't even care to introduce or explain themselves to you, or anyone else.

You're putting a single face behind 75% of the network's miners and then you make up some crazy stories about their evil motives.
What for? In which way doesn't it look like some

populist propaganda crap, straight from the books used by your freshly elected president

Yes, we may(?) to some extent be using Jihan as shorthand for all miners blocking segwit due to Ver's bribes and bamboozling.

I'm correcting your twisted strawman "nonsense" version of what I actually said.

To wit, it makes no sense for me to claim

A. Jihan has no free will (or at minimum lacks agency), and
B. must follow "orders" (your word) from "white Americans" (your other two words), while
C. he is being bribed/bamboozled by Roger Ver (my actual claim).

Do you understand that Roger would not have to bribe/bamboozle (ie influence the free decisions of) Jihan if he could simply issue an anti-segwit order to him instead?

Can you comprehend that I implicitly acknowledged Jihans's free will/agency/"brain" when I accused his decision making process of being unduly/unwisely influenced by Ver's politics and/or $$$$?

That last line though...found the butthurt NeverTrumper! Cool

BitUsher

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We should pursue a safe UASF process regardless of the miners activating segwit or not because using miners to activate upgrades has always been an indirect and rough means of determining consensus within bitcoin and it would be far better allowing the economic users directly determine upgrades to the network.

This being said, there are still many problems that need to be resolved first with UASF.

Additionally, we should also pursue a well tested and PoW HF as another backup option.

The mere threat of these may keep the miners honest but only if we are honest and prepared to use them. "Speak softly but carry a big stick"

piotr_n

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Activity: 2053

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aka tonikt

Quote from: thejaytiesto on March 06, 2017, 12:12:47 PM

From what i've read here, Jihan Wu controls 70% of the hashrate

Well, I have been reading that all his hashing power is signalling support for 2MB blocks...

But I only see 51 blocks (2.5%) with version 0x30000000 in the past 2016 block period.
And it's gone down to 15 (1.5%) inside the last 1000 blocks.

It teaches me to not believe anything that has been posted (and upvoted) on reddit - no mater the sub.

cellard

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1252

Quote from: Carlton Banks on March 05, 2017, 02:44:48 PM

Quote from: cellard on March 05, 2017, 02:27:14 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on March 04, 2017, 01:42:01 PM

The only way to take power back from the miners, is to take away the actual source of their power: mining ASIC processors.

i.e. change the proof of work to something that is too difficult/expensive to make ASIC processors for

How does that solve the fact that rich people can buy a big building and run a million computers running any software they want and that would count as nodes (votes)?

It doesn't.

It solves the problem of ASIC manufacturers taking advantage of the market. The development and production of ASIC chips is highly privileged endeavor; engineering talent available to design the chip is very scarce as well as expensive, and access to chip fabrication plants is also scarce and expensive. Not to mention, the number of chips produced in a minimum sized batch would need that big building to house the miners; a significant barrier to entry.

My proposal (really Meni Rosenfeld's broad proposal) would let people mine with CPU's or GPU/FPGA's again. It wouldn't prevent mining warehouses, but it would change the balance of opportunity so that small miners can participate with a similar barrier to entry as big miners.

How does that change anything?

You get rid of ASICs, and all you do is lower the overall network hashrate, but as I see it, the centralization % is the same. If someone can buy a farm of ASICs, that same entity can buy a farm of computers... at the end of the day, it's a single rich entity owning a ton of machines (for 1 ASIC machine, how many computers can you run?), centralization is still there. With enough money it's always possible to be a deciding entity in the network.. am i missing something?

thejaytiesto

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From what i've read here, Jihan Wu controls 70% of the hashrate

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5wuxxc/jihan_wu_cofounder_of_bitmain_who_supply_70_of/

Before r/btc/ trolls claim that is just r/bitcoin conspiracy, the same thread is discussed in r/btc and nobody is doubting that

If he controls anything over 50% of the network then it is an obvious problem. But again, I don't see how UASF could help us, eventually centralization would happen again at node levels.

piotr_n

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Activity: 2053

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aka tonikt

You're talking nonsense, man (check "nonsense" in a dictionary).

Segwit has currently 25% of support among the miners and your symbol of evil Jihan doesn't seem to control more than 20% of the current network's hashing power. It's probably closer to 10%

So enlighten us, please: who and how is "bamboozing and/or bribing" the remaining 55+% of the miners into blocking segwit?
These are mostly people who don't even care to introduce or explain themselves to you, or anyone else.

You're putting a single face behind 75% of the network's miners and then you make up some crazy stories about their evil motives.
What for? In which way doesn't it look like some populist propaganda crap, straight from the books used by your freshly elected president?

iCEBREAKER

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Activity: 2156

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 03:30:40 AM

Don't be ridiculous. Miners have their own brains and make their own independent decisions. They don't have to and do not follow orders from any 'Americans'.

And it's funny how you see a great development of the small piece of the bitcoin software, but you fail to notice a huge development of the worldwide mining infrastructure.
If you think that what gave bitcoins the value was the core software advancing to version 0.14.x, and not the gigawatts of power burned inside the mining hardware, then you sir obviously know nothing about what the bitcoin phenomenon is, and you are the last who should have a vote on deciding about it's future.
And conveniently, you are the last...

The PoW and the code that uses it are two sides of the same coin. I know that because I've been mining BTC since 2011.

I said Jihan was "bamboozled and/or bribed by the felonious, very white, and formerly American Roger into blocking segwit."

I didn't say Jihan can't make "independent decisions." I didn't say Jihan has to "follow orders."

If you don't understand the difference between an order and a bamboozle/bribe, GET A FUCKING DICTIONARY AND LEARN IT.

Don't twist and misrepresent what I said ever again.

hv_

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Clean Code and Scale

Quote from: piotr_n on March 06, 2017, 03:30:40 AM

Don't be ridiculous. Miners have their own brains and make their own independent decisions. They don't have to and do not follow orders from any 'Americans'.

... and we watch: They are using their brains due to their mega investments. Hacking in 1000s of SW code that mostly give them some 2 MB (1 line) and the real fear losing fees to 2nd layers on top of SW - than for ever (who really believes in a HF LATER ?) - bad incentive...

Quote

And it's funny how you see a great development of the small piece of the bitcoin software, but you fail to notice a huge development of the mining infrastructure.
If you think that what gave bitcoins the value was the core software advancing to version 0.14.x, and not the gigawatts of power burned inside the mining hardware, then you sir obviously know nothing about what the bitcoin phenomenon is, and you are the last who should have a vote on deciding about it's future.
And conveniently, you are the last...

You are rare here - but brain is.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Don't be ridiculous. Miners have their own brains and make their own independent decisions. They don't have to and do not follow orders from any 'Americans'.

And it's funny how you see a great development of the small piece of the bitcoin software, but you fail to notice a huge development of the worldwide mining infrastructure.
If you think that what gave bitcoins the value was the core software advancing to version 0.14.x, and not the gigawatts of power burned inside the mining hardware, then you sir obviously know nothing about what the bitcoin phenomenon is, and you are the last who should have a vote on deciding about it's future.
And conveniently, you are the last...

iCEBREAKER

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Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Yogafan00000 on March 05, 2017, 04:10:56 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on March 05, 2017, 03:24:20 PM

When I remember all the things bitcoin "needed", but has failed to get, it makes me smile.

I remember when bitcoin needed more merchants, although less drug dealers because it was a bad press.

Then bitcoin needed to be much more user friendly - so much that even Gavin's granny could use it.

Then the client needed to be compatible with external hardware wallets, because they were the future.

Then it needed to have a bigger blocks, so it could "scale - or segwit for the same reason.

Then it needed to have tx malleability removed, so some people could deploy their existing side-chain solution.

(that's just from the top of my head, from the past 5+ years)

Today bitcoin needs to get rid of the miners, because... they are endangering its future by doing their job of securing the protocol Shocked

Plus nobody is going to say, but it's also noting that it would not have been such a big issue, if the miners were Americans... or at least white

Fuck knows what bitcoin is going to need tomorrow, in order to "succeed".
When I think about this, it's actually quite shocking that it has succeeded that far.

+1 great point

We will invariably move towards systems which successfully interface with Bitcoin as it works now.

It's not a "great point" it's a smug, cherry-picked, self-referential list topped with a red herring about "Americans."

If the original Satoshi client never needed anything we wouldn't now be at 0.14.x, dozens of BIPs and thousands of LOCs later.

Nationality and race have nothing to do with it, other than the fact the guy (Jihan) bamboozled and/or bribed by the felonious, very white, and formerly American Roger into blocking segwit happens to be from China.

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

How is he a dictatorship?
Even if he's the only ruler of his corporation, which i doubt, he has like 20% of the hashing power - today. It's surely going to change tomorrow.
With this he can't change a shit as well.
Which is a good thing - nobody can change it, so nobody can break it.

Just stop whining and start adjusting yourself to the system.
It's working just fine and exactly as had been designed.

chek2fire

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Ιntergalactic Conciliator

Quote from: piotr_n on March 05, 2017, 08:23:38 PM

Quote from: chek2fire on March 05, 2017, 06:46:20 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on March 05, 2017, 06:29:30 PM

Quote from: chek2fire on March 05, 2017, 06:17:49 PM

i dont agree with this racist view that the problem is miners because they are Chinese and i really fell more secure with mining to China or any other country than USA with shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc
The real problem is that miners has not the right to do political games with bitcoin. They are the only part of bitcoin network that get payed for what they done. For that reason they must activated every upgrade developers propose without any questions.

but why without any questions?

what if the developers get corrupted by shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc?

because they are not them that set the rules how bitcoin network works. is very simple. In the other hand to be fair consensus means everyone must agree for changes among them and miners. But in the segwit case we dont have a critical change that need to be blocked by a part of bitcoin ecosystem. A hard fork yes but not a software upgrade that anyone can ignore easy if dont want to use it.

Well. You see, the funny thing is that they are them that set the rules how bitcoin network works.
You just don't get it, just like so many other people.

and what you suggest. Everyone in bitcoin ecosystem to be fatalist and accept the situation with Jihan Wu as the defacto dictatorship?

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: chek2fire on March 05, 2017, 06:46:20 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on March 05, 2017, 06:29:30 PM

Quote from: chek2fire on March 05, 2017, 06:17:49 PM

i dont agree with this racist view that the problem is miners because they are Chinese and i really fell more secure with mining to China or any other country than USA with shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc
The real problem is that miners has not the right to do political games with bitcoin. They are the only part of bitcoin network that get payed for what they done. For that reason they must activated every upgrade developers propose without any questions.

but why without any questions?

what if the developers get corrupted by shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc?

because they are not them that set the rules how bitcoin network works. is very simple. In the other hand to be fair consensus means everyone must agree for changes among them and miners. But in the segwit case we dont have a critical change that need to be blocked by a part of bitcoin ecosystem. A hard fork yes but not a software upgrade that anyone can ignore easy if dont want to use it.

Well. You see, the funny thing is that they are them that set the rules how bitcoin network works.
You just don't get it, just like so many other people.

chek2fire

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Activity: 3430

Merit: 1142

Ιntergalactic Conciliator

Quote from: piotr_n on March 05, 2017, 06:29:30 PM

Quote from: chek2fire on March 05, 2017, 06:17:49 PM

i dont agree with this racist view that the problem is miners because they are Chinese and i really fell more secure with mining to China or any other country than USA with shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc
The real problem is that miners has not the right to do political games with bitcoin. They are the only part of bitcoin network that get payed for what they done. For that reason they must activated every upgrade developers propose without any questions.

but why without any questions?

what if the developers get corrupted by shadow organisation like NSA,CIA etc?

because they are not them that set the rules how bitcoin network works. is very simple. In the other hand to be fair consensus means everyone must agree for changes among them and miners. But in the segwit case we dont have a critical change that need to be blocked by a part of bitcoin ecosystem. A hard fork yes but not a software upgrade that anyone can ignore easy if dont want to use it.

Topic: Moving towards user activated soft fork activation - page 8. (Read 24442 times)