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Topic: MtGox Collapsing (and taking bitcoin down with them?) - page 3. (Read 13621 times)

full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
I used to debate [Libertarians] who think that all fractional reserve banking is fraud. My usual response is to ask them if they really think there actually exists anyone who thinks that when you deposit money in a bank, they put your money in the safe so that you can withdraw it when you want to. I guess I'll have to find a new argument, because it now appears there is at least one such person.
There probably are a small but measurable fraction of account holders who really think the bank holds all their money in a vault. That's the way banks are normally portrayed in popular fiction, after all. However, even those who understand how banks really work tend to assume, deep down, that "their" money will always be available for withdrawal when they need it. Just look at how betrayed people act when there is a run on the bank and they can't get at "their" money.

Being a firm believer in caveat emptor, I'm not going to claim that fractional reserve banking is an outright fraud. Somewhere in the fine print the banks do state that your money may not be available immediately on request. However, it's not hard to see why people call it that, or why a strict separation was required between interest-bearing time accounts, like CDs, and fee-based demand accounts.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?

In the US it is usually >0% if it is a commercial account which is insured (FDIC only covers $250K which is a token amount for a major business).  Someone with millions in dollar deposits will pay a holding fee on the balance in the demand account (or risk losing a lot in a bank failure).  Small but non-zero.  Generally banks will offer $50M insurance via CDARS on CDs at "not cost" (well taken from the rate of return) but not for demand accounts.

There are services which provide insured "demand like" accounts by handling cash management behind the scenes but they really only make sense for very large accounts.  Also they tend to use money market funds which are not guaranteed to hold par value.




No idea on the banking/insurance costs in Japan.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
So you're saying they should gamble my deposit on the currency markets in the hope of making a profit?
Yes, exactly. A hope of a profit is way better than a sure loss.

There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.
I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?
Safes cost money. Guards cost money. If you mean loan it out to make interest, then there's risk associated with that.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
More interestingly. Let see if it was Bitcoinica that was providing stability or was it something else? hmm... time should tell in relatively short order.

Actully on MT, waiting for MT to offer interest on Traditional Currency holdings. If even a small percentage of their earned interest, it would do wonders for deposits.

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do.

So you're saying they should gamble my deposit on the currency markets in the hope of making a profit?  That seems a little risky.  Is there not a chance that by converting my deposited dollars into yen that they could end up unable to pay me back when I try to withdraw?

There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
Do MtGox issue loans?
Not to my knowledge.

Quote
If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.
There are a variety of reasons, but those most common is to protect themselves from devaluating currencies.

Quote
I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?
No, you don't stuff money in a mattress unless you're an idiot. If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

Mt. Gox should hold sufficient value, in some form ,t cover client deposits. Butthey shouldn't hold reserves in any particular currency of store of value unless that particular currency or store of value makes sense for them.

This is correct. And I hope this dispels the myth that MtGox simply holds clients' funds in a wallet.dat file.

I have no idea how MtGox hedges against currency risk, but it could be as simple as holding a portion of clients' funds in an interest-bearing money-market or deposit account denominated in yen or hong kong dollars.

Who knows, but it's not a simple A to B transaction.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
Do MtGox issue loans?
Not to my knowledge.

Quote
If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.
There are a variety of reasons, but those most common is to protect themselves from devaluating currencies.

Quote
I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?
No, you don't stuff money in a mattress unless you're an idiot. If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

Mt. Gox should hold sufficient value, in some form ,t cover client deposits. Butthey shouldn't hold reserves in any particular currency of store of value unless that particular currency or store of value makes sense for them.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
MTGOX MUST ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS STRAIGHT.

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX BTC REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL BITCOINS?

AND

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX USD REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL USD?

I used to debate Libertarian nut cases who think that all fractional reserve banking is fraud. My usual response is to ask them if they really think there actually exists anyone who thinks that when you deposit money in a bank, they put your money in the safe so that you can withdraw it when you want to. I guess I'll have to find a new argument, because it now appears there is at least one such person.

Do MtGox issue loans?  If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.

I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
There are several reasons why I do not use Gox:

1)  Absolutely god-fucking-awful customer service.  They (I assume) deleted my old account, which still had a few cents in it, without ever informing me or warning me in any way.

Actually, #1 is all I need.  No reason to list any more. 

vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.

To me, it doesn't matter. Any information about me listed in my passport or utility bill is almost public information anyway and distributed in any number of online systems that could be hacked anyway. The traditional banking system will protect/refund/replace any of my dollars that are fraudulently taken from any of my accounts - there is insurance for that kind of thing.

Its a small risk in order to get out from under that shitty, outdated, corrupt, and immoral system.

Really?

I can see your point to some extent but you do expect a level of privacy.

Lets test it. If it doesn't really matter since everyone can get it anyway, post a picture of your Passport.

Once the information breaks your bubble space, people realize that it actually does matter but they have been ignoring it.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1010
Bitcoin Mayor of Las Vegas
Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.

To me, it doesn't matter. Any information about me listed in my passport or utility bill is almost public information anyway and distributed in any number of online systems that could be hacked anyway. The traditional banking system will protect/refund/replace any of my dollars that are fraudulently taken from any of my accounts - there is insurance for that kind of thing.

Its a small risk in order to get out from under that shitty, outdated, corrupt, and immoral system.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
...

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).

great tip dude, i already did the first part without protesting but missed middle finger one  Smiley

Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: 1pirata
...

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).

great tip dude, i already did the first part without protesting but missed middle finger one  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
I want to use CryptoXchange because of their local bank deposits and low fees, but waiting for the pages to load kills me with every click. That, and the interface is too busy and unintuitive.

If you think Crypto's interface is a bitch, check out vircurex.com. They definitely have the most confusing site of them all, but I use them too!
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1010
Bitcoin Mayor of Las Vegas
I want to use CryptoXchange because of their local bank deposits and low fees, but waiting for the pages to load kills me with every click. That, and the interface is too busy and unintuitive.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  Huh There are plenty of better exchanges.
I agree, but I'm curious which ones do you prefer?

BTC-e is probably my fave right now, but I use CryptoXchange, bitStamp, BTCex, and all the rest too. Whoever has the right prices.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  Huh There are plenty of better exchanges.
I agree, but I'm curious which ones do you prefer?
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  Huh There are plenty of better exchanges.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1010
Bitcoin Mayor of Las Vegas
This post is for any n00b that sees any discouraging news about MTGOX and contemplates a negative reaction...

I've used MTGOX for over a year now. I've had one single problem and it was MY FAULT for not clearly identifying my account with a deposit. I've purchased thousands of dollars of Bitcoin through them and not a single problem. On the 4th, a friday, I wired some more dollars and by sunday evening, I was funded and able to trade. No delays at all.

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The problem is easily getting money to other exchanges. It's such a PITA and then all of the fees to do so.
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