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Topic: my intuition says: we're sitting on a rocket about to be ignited - page 9. (Read 36883 times)

legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1001
Revolutionizing Brokerage of Personal Data
Of course you are right. The Prisoners Dilemma is an oversimplification but there is an aspect of it. The problem is there are people who are even hoarding the Bitcoins they buy regularly and spend nothing.
Although I have no idea how many, but by observation on volatility it seems significant.
I agree. If I were to speculate on the causes, I'd say that to a great extend people are holding on to their coins not so much until they are worth a fortune but until there is something useful they can spend them on. You know, there is only so many alpaca socks you really need Wink
The situation seems to be better in the US, but for the rest of the world, the amount of goods and services that can be purchased for Bitcoins and that one really needs is still rather limited.

Many people seem to happily pledge to buy Reddit gold, donate to the EFF or Wikipedia if only they could use Bitcoin for that. Sure, some probably do so in part because they simply want to reward Bitcoin acceptance, but most would probably genuinely like to help these organizations and for any number reasons prefer not using credit cards or PayPal.
Until people find a better use for their coins I can not blame them for holding on to them or even enjoy trading/speculating with them a bit. In any case, I don't really see hoarding as a long term problem of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
The prisoners dilemma:
If everybody were to sell (or better use) part of their hoard over time the market would become more and more healthy as the fear of dumps depreciates. In terms of the dilemma that would be to cooperate.
Unlike in the prisoner's dilemma, you can very well use Bitcoins (i.e. cooperate in your terms) without reducing your expected reward from future price increases: by simply restocking your BTC regularly.

I happily spend, donate and trade Bitcoins all the time without my savings wallet getting touched. Unless your strategy is to hold even the last bit of your wealth in Bitcoin, there is no prisoner's dilemma here.

Of course you are right. The Prisoners Dilemma is an oversimplification but there is an aspect of it. The problem is there are people who are even hoarding the Bitcoins they buy regularly and spend nothing.
Although I have no idea how many, but by observation on volatility it seems significant. I've read a paper recently which explains periods of high volatility or "hazards" by the strategy of certain investors to hold a certain percentage of total in an asset. This is what causes these spiky movements in-betweeen calm periods. So it's not only hoarding to be blamed but the overal investment strategy which leads to it.... even when every participant in the market acts rationally.
This is highly chaotic and a slight change in fundamentals can lead to drastic results.
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1001
Revolutionizing Brokerage of Personal Data
The prisoners dilemma:
If everybody were to sell (or better use) part of their hoard over time the market would become more and more healthy as the fear of dumps depreciates. In terms of the dilemma that would be to cooperate.
Unlike in the prisoner's dilemma, you can very well use Bitcoins (i.e. cooperate in your terms) without reducing your expected reward from future price increases: by simply restocking your BTC regularly.

I happily spend, donate and trade Bitcoins all the time without my savings wallet getting touched. Unless your strategy is to hold even the last bit of your wealth in Bitcoin, there is no prisoner's dilemma here.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
LOL, that would be an epic dump



legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
If someone with 100,000 or more dropped them all at once, btc would be pennies.

at the moment it would take about 600,000 BTC for btc be pennies, but this is not true, because if someone start selling those amounts, would rise quickly big bid walls that would slow the fall.

Considering that is one market order only existing bids are considered. It would bounce, for sure but it would get there if only for a moment.

True, really only would get a spread of $11, until new bid walls were lifted, since nobody is their right mind move a ask wall from $12 to $0.5 lightly...
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
If someone with 100,000 or more dropped them all at once, btc would be pennies.

at the moment it would take about 600,000 BTC for btc be pennies, but this is not true, because if someone start selling those amounts, would rise quickly big bid walls that would slow the fall.

Considering that is one market order only existing bids are considered. It would bounce, for sure but it would get there if only for a moment.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
If someone with 100,000 or more dropped them all at once, btc would be pennies.

at the moment it would take about 600,000 BTC for btc be pennies, but this is not true, because if someone start selling those amounts, would rise quickly big bid walls that would slow the fall.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
The real thing holding the market back is a few people can dump enough coins at any one time to crash the market, if they wanted to.

I have >6000 coins. If I sold them all today at once, the market would take a dump belly and there would be some panic buying and selling.

If someone with 100,000 or more dropped them all at once, btc would be pennies.

The prisoners dilemma:
If everybody were to sell (or better use) part of their hoard over time the market would become more and more healthy as the fear of dumps depreciates. In terms of the dilemma that would be to cooperate.
On the other hand if everybody hoards there is the increasing fear of dumps which results in violent outbursts in the market price. That would be defecting in terms of the dilemma.
So right now almost everybody is defecting in an iterated prisoners dilemma, that's the worst strategy....

But you know, even very smart people can act stupid when in a horde.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
The real thing holding the market back is a few people can dump enough coins at any one time to crash the market, if they wanted to.

I have >6000 coins. If I sold them all today at once, the market would take a dump belly and there would be some panic buying and selling.

If someone with 100,000 or more dropped them all at once, btc would be pennies.
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 252
Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Network
The day when all you guys are silently buying all the bitcoins instead of cheering here that's the day when we'll really taking off.  Kiss
True that. I'm only screaming RALLY, because I bought my bitcoins a few weeks ago and I'm getting ready to cash out at $15 or so.

I have a feeling you shouldn't do that.
Why not?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Buying is the only thing that keeps pushing the price up though.

More currency instead of asset use could potentially give bitcoin some extra value. That means you would be able to exchange a bitcoin for more than the equivalent fiat money value in terms of goods. Of course that would lead to drastically more buying because there is a strong extra incentive.
hero member
Activity: 815
Merit: 1000
We'll be taking off when 'buying bitcoins' makes no sense. I haven't bought bitcoins in well over a year and I encourage you all to join me in collecting as many as you freaking can. (buying bitcoins is so 2010)

so you want people to collect bitcoins without buying them?
Ahhh maybe he means "earn" as in real economy/jobs for BTC that kind of thing - not speculation buying.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
We'll be taking off when 'buying bitcoins' makes no sense. I haven't bought bitcoins in well over a year and I encourage you all to join me in collecting as many as you freaking can. (buying bitcoins is so 2010)

so you want people to collect bitcoins without buying them?
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1016
Strength in numbers
We'll be taking off when 'buying bitcoins' makes no sense. I haven't bought bitcoins in well over a year and I encourage you all to join me in collecting as many as you freaking can. (buying bitcoins is so 2010)
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
The day when all you guys are silently buying all the bitcoins instead of cheering here that's the day when we'll really taking off.  Kiss
True that. I'm only screaming RALLY, because I bought my bitcoins a few weeks ago and I'm getting ready to cash out at $15 or so.

I have a feeling you shouldn't do that.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
The day when all you guys are silently buying all the bitcoins instead of cheering here that's the day when we'll really taking off.  Kiss

The problem here is: NO FIAT.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
My screen tells me that you were right.
The rocket has been filled of gas and is now taking off.
Let's see if this one will crash in the see or reach the moon!

Oh no, this is not a confirmation. I was "feeling" longer term and much bigger rocket. It could be the first stage, though.
I admit the ultimate confirmation is when we'll be in the moon just before crashing to the sea (or on the way to Mars)
Now let me reformulate
Given what my screen tells me, my intuition says that you are right.

hehe, love it! I can accept being right that way. Let's hope my being rights lasts a long time.
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 252
Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Network
The day when all you guys are silently buying all the bitcoins instead of cheering here that's the day when we'll really taking off.  Kiss
True that. I'm only screaming RALLY, because I bought my bitcoins a few weeks ago and I'm getting ready to cash out at $15 or so.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
The day when all you guys are silently buying all the bitcoins instead of cheering here that's the day when we'll really taking off.  Kiss
legendary
Activity: 892
Merit: 1013
My screen tells me that you were right.
The rocket has been filled of gas and is now taking off.
Let's see if this one will crash in the see or reach the moon!

Oh no, this is not a confirmation. I was "feeling" longer term and much bigger rocket. It could be the first stage, though.
I admit the ultimate confirmation is when we'll be in the moon just before crashing to the sea (or on the way to Mars)
Now let me reformulate
Given what my screen tells me, my intuition says that you are right.
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