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Topic: My thoughts on the DAO (Read 2437 times)

legendary
Activity: 1267
Merit: 1000
July 02, 2016, 05:10:39 AM
#27
Charles, I don't think you sufficiently emphasized Bruce Fenton's points. You provided a link that seems lost in a sea of the mix of historical storytelling with a smidgen of your self-aggrandizing verbiage, so I doubt most readers even read what Bruce wrote.

Crypto is Not Politics

I keep reading arguments about how The Will of The People should decide. And how this is the only fair and equitable way. And I am here to say this is 100% retarded bullshit and any one who repeats it (and nonchalantly dismisses this!), is retarded.

What distinguishes the intention of Satoshi's block chain invention from the world we had before it, is that it eliminates politics. The technical reason is because due to the Nash equilibrium, then no one (not even mining nodes) have any fucking control.

If we destroy the Nash equilibrium with a 51% attack (aka fork) by not honoring the decentralized protocol, then we fall into a no-man's land of ambiguous interpretation and the brutality of the majority.

It is as simple as that. Either we choose to honor the code and protocol, or we go back to the depressing clusterfucked world we have before Satoshi.

Now the other problem is that BitCON is also becoming centralized because of economies-of-scale in mining. We haven't yet perfected Satoshi's invention. But that should not deter us from our ideals.

If you support forks, you violate everything Satoshi tried to do for the world.

No forks! No Blockstream forks either! Offer proof-of-burn if you want to propose new features on a new block chain, so that people are autonomous with their money.

And any arguments about empathy and intent in contract law are up against moral hazard which leads to the aforementioned clusterfuck of brutality. Don't reward retarded speculators for not doing due diligence and their derelict incapable developer idols, because they carry the mental affliction of those who want the clusterfucked world that existed prior to Satoshi's invention.




Bookmarking for future reference.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 25, 2016, 03:27:21 AM
#26
Charles our community desperately needs you (or someone) to bring back the Bitcoin University:

Specifying an ideal by specifying the absence of whatever properties does not mean much to me tbh, it is all secondary and/or irrelevant.
Your only ideal specified here is "launching a token system fairly yet also funding the developer." which is very very vague to me. If that is all it is, then I would say just code something that someone wants to pay you for. Software industry is not bad to be in - in terms of pay - and still absorbing more and more devs  Grin.

Thank you for your post, as you enabled me to see where I have not communicated to those who lack background understanding of the issues.

The ideal specified in the OP is to have a consensus+distribution system that:

  • doesn't centralize
  • doesn't allow voting or consensus to drive a fork, which violates the permissionless, trustless requirement (the entire reason that block chains exist otherwise we could use corporation and a database)
  • doesn't create a manipulated money supply distribution
  • doesn't end up as just another fiat system because it is controlled
  • doesn't end up implementing MIT's CoinAnchor which will force us all to present our 666 id when we transact
  • doesn't create the moral hazard of and complete loss of trust in the block chain by bailing users of the system, e.g. Ethereum forking to bailout the Too Big To Fail DAO.

Have you been sleeping under a rock while the Ethereum/DAO fiasco has occurred?

You seem to not understand how the ideals specified in the OP pertain to avoiding a fiasco like that. I suggest you click all the links in the OP and get the full flavor of what is driving these ideals.

Sorry to speak to you this way and apologies if I am overreacting to your erroneous use of the words "secondary", "irrelevant" and "your only ideal", but it is amazingly frustrating when instead of asking a question about the relevance of the OP, you make smug (and frankly speaking, slightly condescending although you did admit it is all "vague" to you) statements which are clueless as if you don't even understand anything about why Satoshi invented a block chain.

We seriously need someone to launch a Block Chain University. There are far too many speculators who are ignorant about what they are speculating on.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 23, 2016, 09:16:32 PM
#25
Crypto is Not Politics

That's like saying consensus has nothing to do with consensus. Luckily there is also the market which has its own way of voting on things.

Yes. It is all economics (game theory) after all. The key is that is becomes very impractical to move for such a vote, just as due to Hash equilibrium it is not practical for the nodes to gang up and 51% attack.

The Ethereum miners are preparing for a 51% attack on the block chain, to for it. Maybe 75% of the miners will attend.

Yes because they each have too much power thus they can coordinate.

But in normal free market systems in nature, entropy disperses and people can't agree on anything.  Wink

Ethereum is basically a closed system that does nothing but mint BTC for Ethereum miners. So of course all the ETH miners have aligned on keeping the pump alive.

Natural disagreement is the key to my solution.
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
June 23, 2016, 01:58:07 PM
#24
Crypto is Not Politics

That's like saying consensus has nothing to do with consensus. Luckily there is also the market which has its own way of voting on things.

Yes. It is all economics (game theory) after all. The key is that is becomes very impractical to move for such a vote, just as due to Hash equilibrium it is not practical for the nodes to gang up and 51% attack.

The Ethereum miners are preparing for a 51% attack on the block chain, to for it. Maybe 75% of the miners will attend.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 23, 2016, 01:16:07 PM
#23
Crypto is Not Politics

That's like saying consensus has nothing to do with consensus. Luckily there is also the market which has its own way of voting on things.

Yes. It is all economics (game theory) after all. The key is that is becomes very impractical to move for such a vote, just as due to Hash equilibrium it is not practical for the nodes to gang up and 51% attack.
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
June 23, 2016, 01:06:34 PM
#22
Crypto is Not Politics

That's like saying consensus has nothing to do with consensus. Luckily there is also the market which has its own way of voting on things.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
June 23, 2016, 12:54:49 PM
#21


Btw, I already know how to do the bolded part decentralized in the redesign of proof-of-work I am preparing to launch:


Look forward to the whitepaper.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 23, 2016, 12:48:01 PM
#20

Btw, I already know how to do the bolded part decentralized in the redesign of proof-of-work I am preparing to launch:

Quote from: Peter Todd
What This Means For Bitcoin, And Myself

I’m genuinely concerned that the way Ethereum is handling the DAO hack is setting a precedent that decentralized systems should be managed with the same kind of human interventions seen in centralized systems. I didn’t get involved in Bitcoin to make an inefficient PayPal clone - I got involved to give users the choice to use a system based on something different, a choice they didn’t have before. And I don’t want to be a target for people trying to make those interventions happen.

While I did previously agree to support the idea of a flag day hard-fork with a non-consensus, information-only, show of coin-days-destroyed support, in hindsight I think that was a mistake; I will not be a part of anything less than a genuine, consensus-enforced coin vote going forward.

Finally, I’ll continue working on finding ways to reduce miners’ control over Bitcoin, whether it’s freezing funds, or forcing protocol changes against users’ will.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 23, 2016, 11:55:13 AM
#18
Charles, I don't think you sufficiently emphasized Bruce Fenton's points. You provided a link that seems lost in a sea of the mix of historical storytelling with a smidgen of your self-aggrandizing verbiage, so I doubt most readers even read what Bruce wrote.

Crypto is Not Politics

I keep reading arguments about how The Will of The People should decide. And how this is the only fair and equitable way. And I am here to say this is 100% retarded bullshit and any one who repeats it (and nonchalantly dismisses this!), is retarded.

What distinguishes the intention of Satoshi's block chain invention from the world we had before it, is that it eliminates politics. The technical reason is because due to the Nash equilibrium, then no one (not even mining nodes) have any fucking control.

If we destroy the Nash equilibrium with a 51% attack (aka fork) by not honoring the decentralized protocol, then we fall into a no-man's land of ambiguous interpretation and the brutality of the majority.

It is as simple as that. Either we choose to honor the code and protocol, or we go back to the depressing clusterfucked world we have before Satoshi.

Now the other problem is that BitCON is also becoming centralized because of economies-of-scale in mining. We haven't yet perfected Satoshi's invention. But that should not deter us from our ideals.

If you support forks, you violate everything Satoshi tried to do for the world.

No forks! No Blockstream forks either! Offer proof-of-burn if you want to propose new features on a new block chain, so that people are autonomous with their money.

And any arguments about empathy and intent in contract law are up against moral hazard which leads to the aforementioned clusterfuck of brutality. Don't reward retarded speculators for not doing due diligence and their derelict incapable developer idols, because they carry the mental affliction of those who want the clusterfucked world that existed prior to Satoshi's invention.


No forks!

Another argument made in favor of forking is that consensus is created "by the community", that "the miners can vote". This is even more subtle and misleading. Miners are not meant to be the final arbiters of transactions and contracts. By design, they are supposed to be dumb slaves of the protocol rules. A dumb lottery validating transactions according to deterministic rules.

If they need to employ good judgment, we are at the mercy of their good sense.

It comes down to is this. If smart contracts must be interpreted by humans for their "intent" instead of by code for their programming, then smart contracts cannot be autonomous and automatic, and instead can be retroactively reversed by the community, the courts or governments.

If this is the case, it's hard to see what value smart contracts actually have, which means that it's hard to see that ethereum should have any value at all.

The only way for ethereum to be able to recover from this event and thrive in the future is for it to stick to its principles.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1090
=== NODE IS OK! ==
June 22, 2016, 06:06:25 AM
#17
The five stages of grief are the best explanation of all the hidden desperation currently bubbling though this forum
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
June 22, 2016, 04:57:39 AM
#16
Trying to remove power plays/distribution from life is like trying to build a perpetuum mobile, thats what a lot of people in crypto forget.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
June 21, 2016, 01:53:35 PM
#15
So what, Ripple froze funds, and it never left the Top 5.

Banks hate immutability, and will now mate with Ethereum. Hope you didn't sell Hosk.

All that the average mass adopter knows is that Ethereum is for the good guys and bitcoin is for criminals. Crypto theft and ransom issues are now anthing of the past thanks to you and Vitalik and the rest!


You're kidding right? Clearly Ethereum is for the criminals too.

Of course I'm not joking.  Are you?

I Don't know what world reserve currency your planet uses, but here on earth, the masses vote for Fed Res Notez and if you are a criminal, then yours are confiscated SWIFT-LY.  Iran and Russia = criminal therefore sanctions.

So it would depend what you think the law is for there to be a criminal.

If you think that code is law then Vitalik is the criminal.  But if you think that laws should protect the poor and discriminate against the rich like they do in Socialist Paradises, then the richest man in the room is always evil.  And now that Bernie Sanders has shown that America is really a welfare Socialist Government where the rich should be eaten, then mob rule makes the law and Vitalik is just like Robin Hood robing the rich and giving to the poor.

Was Robin Hood a criminal?

Vitalik is Robin Hood.

So to those who naively think that code is law, you fail to realize that law itself is altruistic and not widely recognized nor respected by humans with no moral compas as those who believe in Socialism where humans are not allowed to own anything like the Indians who traded all the land in the US for a bottle of cheap whisky.  So you think that the Native Americans should just accept the fact that their ancestors entered into a uneven contract with the Europeans, and just bend over and stfu and take it because contracts are law.

Good luck selling that to the masses.

So do you see why you are not going to win this arguement?

Because you are the wealthy 1% (the thief), and you somehow expect the masses of useless eaters to sympathize with Nate Rothschild?

LOmotherfucknL

Good luck with that Mr. Million Dollar Man because the poor and oppressed are going to beat you up and take your money:

BERNIE SANDERS FOR THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE USA IN 2016 WILL ABOLISH ALL PERSONAL PROPERTY RIGHTS AND IMMUTABLE BLOCKCHAINS!

Sorry, but the masses are as hungry as they are too stupid and lazy to read contracts.

And you, my friends are the wealthy evil price sleculators who become criminals under the NEW laws. Yeah, laws change all the time.

You, my friend, are a "grotesque" speculator under the NEW Socialist laws:

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10158

and we have a jail cell waiting for rich folk like you who are un-American and unpatriotic!

USA
USA
USA
USA

SUPERMAN IS VITALIK AND HE IS A TRUE AMERICAN HERO

https://steemit.com/crypto-news/@etherqueen/ethereum-will-clean-up-bitcoins-image-by-ending-blockchain-theft-and-ransom

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll continue to think criminals will use any crypto-currency and you can continue to think ETH is immune. Have a great day.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 21, 2016, 01:38:05 PM
#14
Charles, I don't think you sufficiently emphasized Bruce Fenton's points. You provided a link that seems lost in a sea of the mix of historical storytelling with a smidgen of your self-aggrandizing verbiage, so I doubt most readers even read what Bruce wrote.

Crypto is Not Politics

I keep reading arguments about how The Will of The People should decide. And how this is the only fair and equitable way. And I am here to say this is 100% retarded bullshit and any one who repeats it (and nonchalantly dismisses this!), is retarded.

What distinguishes the intention of Satoshi's block chain invention from the world we had before it, is that it eliminates politics. The technical reason is because due to the Nash equilibrium, then no one (not even mining nodes) have any fucking control.

If we destroy the Nash equilibrium with a 51% attack (aka fork) by not honoring the decentralized protocol, then we fall into a no-man's land of ambiguous interpretation and the brutality of the majority.

It is as simple as that. Either we choose to honor the code and protocol, or we go back to the depressing clusterfucked world we have before Satoshi.

Now the other problem is that BitCON is also becoming centralized because of economies-of-scale in mining. We haven't yet perfected Satoshi's invention. But that should not deter us from our ideals.

If you support forks, you violate everything Satoshi tried to do for the world.

No forks! No Blockstream forks either! Offer proof-of-burn if you want to propose new features on a new block chain, so that people are autonomous with their money.

And any arguments about empathy and intent in contract law are up against moral hazard which leads to the aforementioned clusterfuck of brutality. Don't reward retarded speculators for not doing due diligence and their derelict incapable developer idols, because they carry the mental affliction of those who want the clusterfucked world that existed prior to Satoshi's invention.


sr. member
Activity: 714
Merit: 260
June 21, 2016, 01:35:26 PM
#13
So what, Ripple froze funds, and it never left the Top 5.

Banks hate immutability, and will now mate with Ethereum. Hope you didn't sell Hosk.

All that the average mass adopter knows is that Ethereum is for the good guys and bitcoin is for criminals. Crypto theft and ransom issues are now anthing of the past thanks to you and Vitalik and the rest!


You're kidding right? Clearly Ethereum is for the criminals too.

A criminal group might get 3.6 million Ethereum. But that might be stopped by the community, especially with the efforts of the miners.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 21, 2016, 10:08:59 AM
#12
Research paper has a section that mentions some smart contract use cases:

http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/234939/234939.pdf#page=12

Note that paper above is claiming some classes of programming errors can be avoided in smart contracts by using dependent and polymorphic types. But as I wrote upthread, that won't eliminate semantic bugs such as game theory bugs. See for example §4.3 Misaligned Incentives in the following paper:

http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/460.pdf#page8

Generally speaking, as I explained by example of the Halting problem, the runtime entropy of a Turing-complete machine is unbounded. Thus there are an unbounded number of ways to create errors, regardless of any fancy typing system and programming paradigm.

I totally agree with you. More to follow...

I don't think there is any fail-proof encapsulation for Turing-complete smart contract failure. Each smart contract needs to be extremely well vetted before people invest a lot of money in that specific smart contract. The market will eventually learn this.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
June 21, 2016, 08:32:42 AM
#11

When the DAO was announced...
It would have taken about 5 minutes for an Adult to grasp the almost laughable conflicts of interest...
But anyone pointing this out was shouted down by "the wise crowd" desperate to make riskless $$$...
(Since Stephan Tual had fraudulently promised that people could pull out their investment at par anytime).   




https://etherscan.io/token/thedao-token-chart


The Top 5 accounts hold 20% = quorum to vote in any Proposal...
While the Top 50 accounts hold about 52% of the tokens...
And these are not random people, but Founders and their inner circles...
So Mt DAO was rigged to make the 22,900 investors comprising "the wise crowd" completely irrelevant from Day One.

The DAO token ownership chart pretty much tells you what will happen next.

Since Ethereum holdings likely mirror DAO holdings to a large degree...
Whatever soft/hard fork that is necessary to bail out the Founders will come to pass...
Similar to the dynamic that forced Washington to bail out Wall Street and banks in 2008.


I had not seen this graph, but was looking for something similar. I think we should be promoting this. I was an early investor and sold off early. Its a fixed game from the beginning.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
Litecoin Association Director
June 21, 2016, 12:16:47 AM
#10
Very good read, thank you for putting it together.


I loved this sentence more than anything else

Quote
The protocol marches on like a silent, yet diligent sentinel uncaring in judgement, but utterly fair.


I've also shared my thoughts....as well as a warning to Vitalik.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/public-statement-to-vitalik-buterin-and-his-involvement-with-the-dao-1520901
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1008
CEO of IOHK
June 20, 2016, 11:53:56 PM
#9
I can feel the love radiating off of you guys. I also didn't come up with lisk. I only recently joined
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1100
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
June 20, 2016, 11:50:00 PM
#8
Slapper, wth?

Chuck practically invented the DAO

He was involved in the first DAO (BTS), Then Ethereum which created "The Mega DAO"

And now then BTS DPOS fork Lisk which is a DAO

Launching ICO scams = Rot in prison

I edited my post however ....
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