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Topic: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) - page 4. (Read 1565 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course Wink).
This is something I thought about.
Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to).
We will see…
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
A little update from my secret location:

I got this:



I started testing:


Sweeet! That's a clean setup! I am using rusty tools and for my last backup, due to no access to the anvil at the time, resorted to using a large hammer's side profile as support for the washer. Works better than you might think. Wink

The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious.
Same epiphany here when I did my first backup, kneeling on the ground outside hammering onto metal for hours. This caveman-type activity, with the background of securing high-tech digital decentralized online 'gold', was kind of bizarre at first, honestly! Cheesy

I am going to write a full thread on this experience.
Cool, looking forward on more opinions on this backup technique in general & also specific challenges / critiques / improvement suggestions.
It's still my favourite so far due to cheap material, perfect results (can throw away badly stamped washers) and privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course Wink).
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
A little update from my secret location:

I got this:



I started testing:



The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious.

I am going to write a full thread on this experience.


legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
I am definitely going for this.
I already have a blockmit printed. I would like to do a review of your jig.
I have 24mm washers and this set of pinchers set of punchers.
Do you need anything else?
Sending you a DM.

legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')! Cheesy
I think DIY is the way to go, it's just not for everybody, because some people can only eat baby food and they can not chew for themselves Wink
Most people today prefer to trust others to do the job for them, and it's not just related with Bitcoin stuff, it's the same with everything else.
Probably one of the best things you can have today is nice 3D printer, learn basic soldering, working with tools, and you are good to go.
It's not that hard to make your own hardware signing device, seed words backup on metal, your own bitcoin node with 3d printed case, etc.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people?
It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy  Cheesy
Pretty sure such a product exists and there's definitely a place for it. Since it takes probably 2h to stamp a backup and even more time to get all the stuff needed, people might prefer buying just a set of all seed words and only having to number them correctly.
But I still believe for better opsec, for reducing waste and saving money, the DIY approach is king.

Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')! Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools.

I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers.
Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers.
I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this.
Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people?
It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy  Cheesy


maybe depends on how easy it is to do.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools.

I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers.
Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers.
I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this.
Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people?
It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt
Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk.

true good point
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt
Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you.
I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers.
Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets.
Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself.
And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.

If you give a list of 60 words.

48 good words for 2 full seed backups. you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt

you don’t need to punch.  but the fabricator would know you sent  for the set of 60 words.


So you would be safe more or less from the two wallets getting cracked.

but the risk of five dollar wrench attack is heightened
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you.
I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers.
Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets.
Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself.
And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Extraordinary
I already had a tough on the topic.

I looked at op's idea and decided to do this.

I ordered washers
I ordered bolts

I ordered punches

I have the other gear.

I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.
Cool! I'm not 100% sure yet how it's going to work, so I'll check out your topic once it's up.
Feel free to link it here as well! Smiley

Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless! Grin


yeah I am certain I will have the washer held solid via 2 screws. center and six o'clock.

washers came today along with bolts and nuts.

I think I have a great jig Idea that will rig off your rig idea.

I will hold back on that idea until I see if it works.


How big is the full list of words?

24 of ?

@ dkbit98

I got this. these are 18/8  vs  316

https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/   got 2 packs of 25

https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A108/ got 1 pack of 50

https://www.mcmaster.com/91249A726/ got 1 pack of bolts

https://www.mcmaster.com/97149A100/ got 1 pack of 50

so 100 washers will allow me four sets.

I know that 18/8 is not as rust resistant  as 316


but some lithium grease will offer more protection.

I can field test it easy peasy. Just put one outside for a few months time.


My washer choice is from this company

https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/oversized-washers-9/

I got the punch set below

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0P8ADA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details


edit list length is 2048 words

if you had 2 separate wallets with 48 words you could make 2 of these for under 20 bucks and labor.

If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you.
I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers.
Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers.

Yeah I know it is only decently secure vs using the full list.

Code:

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rebuild
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receive
recipe
record
recycle
reduce
reflect
reform
refuse
region
regret
regular
reject
relax
release
relief
rely
remain
remember
remind
remove
render
renew
rent
reopen
repair
repeat
replace
report
require
rescue
resemble
resist
resource
response
result
retire
retreat
return
reunion
reveal
review
reward
rhythm
rib
ribbon
rice
rich
ride
ridge
rifle
right
rigid
ring
riot
ripple
risk
ritual
rival
river
road
roast
robot
robust
rocket
romance
roof
rookie
room
rose
rotate
rough
round
route
royal
rubber
rude
rug
rule
run
runway
rural
sad
saddle
sadness
safe
sail
salad
salmon
salon
salt
salute
same
sample
sand
satisfy
satoshi
sauce
sausage
save
say
scale
scan
scare
scatter
scene
scheme
school
science
scissors
scorpion
scout
scrap
screen
script
scrub
sea
search
season
seat
second
secret
section
security
seed
seek
segment
select
sell
seminar
senior
sense
sentence
series
service
session
settle
setup
seven
shadow
shaft
shallow
share
shed
shell
sheriff
shield
shift
shine
ship
shiver
shock
shoe
shoot
shop
short
shoulder
shove
shrimp
shrug
shuffle
shy
sibling
sick
side
siege
sight
sign
silent
silk
silly
silver
similar
simple
since
sing
siren
sister
situate
six
size
skate
sketch
ski
skill
skin
skirt
skull
slab
slam
sleep
slender
slice
slide
slight
slim
slogan
slot
slow
slush
small
smart
smile
smoke
smooth
snack
snake
snap
sniff
snow
soap
soccer
social
sock
soda
soft
solar
soldier
solid
solution
solve
someone
song
soon
sorry
sort
soul
sound
soup
source
south
space
spare
spatial
spawn
speak
special
speed
spell
spend
sphere
spice
spider
spike
spin
spirit
split
spoil
sponsor
spoon
sport
spot
spray
spread
spring
spy
square
squeeze
squirrel
stable
stadium
staff
stage
stairs
stamp
stand
start
state
stay
steak
steel
stem
step
stereo
stick
still
sting
stock
stomach
stone
stool
story
stove
strategy
street
strike
strong
struggle
student
stuff
stumble
style
subject
submit
subway
success
such
sudden
suffer
sugar
suggest
suit
summer
sun
sunny
sunset
super
supply
supreme
sure
surface
surge
surprise
surround
survey
suspect
sustain
swallow
swamp
swap
swarm
swear
sweet
swift
swim
swing
switch
sword
symbol
symptom
syrup
system
table
tackle
tag
tail
talent
talk
tank
tape
target
task
taste
tattoo
taxi
teach
team
tell
ten
tenant
tennis
tent
term
test
text
thank
that
theme
then
theory
there
they
thing
this
thought
three
thrive
throw
thumb
thunder
ticket
tide
tiger
tilt
timber
time
tiny
tip
tired
tissue
title
toast
tobacco
today
toddler
toe
together
toilet
token
tomato
tomorrow
tone
tongue
tonight
tool
tooth
top
topic
topple
torch
tornado
tortoise
toss
total
tourist
toward
tower
town
toy
track
trade
traffic
tragic
train
transfer
trap
trash
travel
tray
treat
tree
trend
trial
tribe
trick
trigger
trim
trip
trophy
trouble
truck
true
truly
trumpet
trust
truth
try
tube
tuition
tumble
tuna
tunnel
turkey
turn
turtle
twelve
twenty
twice
twin
twist
two
type
typical
ugly
umbrella
unable
unaware
uncle
uncover
under
undo
unfair
unfold
unhappy
uniform
unique
unit
universe
unknown
unlock
until
unusual
unveil
update
upgrade
uphold
upon
upper
upset
urban
urge
usage
use
used
useful
useless
usual
utility
vacant
vacuum
vague
valid
valley
valve
van
vanish
vapor
various
vast
vault
vehicle
velvet
vendor
venture
venue
verb
verify
version
very
vessel
veteran
viable
vibrant
vicious
victory
video
view
village
vintage
violin
virtual
virus
visa
visit
visual
vital
vivid
vocal
voice
void
volcano
volume
vote
voyage
wage
wagon
wait
walk
wall
walnut
want
warfare
warm
warrior
wash
wasp
waste
water
wave
way
wealth
weapon
wear
weasel
weather
web
wedding
weekend
weird
welcome
west
wet
whale
what
wheat
wheel
when
where
whip
whisper
wide
width
wife
wild
will
win
window
wine
wing
wink
winner
winter
wire
wisdom
wise
wish
witness
wolf
woman
wonder
wood
wool
word
work
world
worry
worth
wrap
wreck
wrestle
wrist
write
wrong
yard
year
yellow
you
young
youth
zebra
zero
zone
zoo

legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
yeah stainless steel can rust
Only if you scrub the surface or cut it with other metal, or if you use some chemicals for cleaning.
There are different types and grades of SS with different percentage of iron, chromium, nickel and carbon... in simple terms more nickel means better anti-corrosion.
I think that Jameson Lopp used all kinds of testing when he tested metal seed backups, including acid with other torture methods and stainless steel survived all of them.
One material that would outlive stainless steel would probably be titanium but that is expensive and I never heard of titanium washers so far Wink

I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.
Great to hear and I just love reading about DIY projects, especially here in forum.
What exact type of steel washers you purchased?
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
Extraordinary
I already had a tough on the topic.

I looked at op's idea and decided to do this.

I ordered washers
I ordered bolts

I ordered punches

I have the other gear.

I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.
Cool! I'm not 100% sure yet how it's going to work, so I'll check out your topic once it's up.
Feel free to link it here as well! Smiley

Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless! Grin
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Extraordinary 🙂
I already had a tough on the topic.

I looked at op's idea and decided to do this.

I ordered washers
I ordered bolts

I ordered punches

I have the other gear.

I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me.

newbie
Activity: 66
Merit: 0
Extraordinary 🙂
I already had a tough on the topic.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Please note if I think I gave credit for the image correctly. I pulled it from:

https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/





how about using a fender washer.
use center hole screw washer to plywood

drill second hole screw washer in both holes

put new hole at six o'clock

wrap the word at 7-9-11-1-3-5

cost is a piece of plywood.
25 washers
a nut and bolt

when done lightly grease the coins to slow rusting. white lithium grease is good.

(yeah stainless steel can rust)


and you can make a  jig  that holds the punches  using this

https://www.amazon.com/Mending-Stainless-Straight-Connector-Thickness/dp/B08DNMK7W5/ref=sr_1_1?c

hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
Awesome!
I stumbled on this thread almost by chance and this is definitely something I would like to test in the near future.
Low tech, durable way, of storing bitcoin is definitely something I would like to test.

I already had a tough on the topic,

Gifting satoshis to future generations

Now, trying first hand is now on my 2022 project list.
That's cool! If you're interested in such a jig as well, feel free to tell me the dimensions of your washers & I can send you STL files to print Smiley
I didn't get around to making an easy customizable OpenSCAD file for it. With that, anyone could customize the file by themselves for free, but the file I have right now is only for (paid) Autodesk Fusion.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Awesome!
I stumbled on this thread almost by chance and this is definitely something I would like to test in the near future.
Low tech, durable way, of storing bitcoin is definitely something I would like to test.

I already had a tough on the topic,

Gifting satoshis to future generations

Now, trying first hand is now on my 2022 project list.


 
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