Topic: Nano Ledger S Receiving Address (Read 358 times)

You are still using Bitcoin.
Regardless of whether its a software wallet on your pc or your hardware wallet.

So, network-wise, there is no difference.
Therefore it also doesn't make any difference whether you reuse addresses in ledger live or electrum.




Yes, you can. It just might take a while to confirm.




You can send a transaction almost for free. But it will take time until it confirms. It might even never confirm (but don't worry, your coins are not lost in that case).
The total fee (= fee rate [sat/vB] x size [vB]) you pay depends on the fee rate you use (sat/vB) and the transaction size (vB).

The higher the fee rate is, the more it will cost but the higher the chance is that your TX will confirm sooner.

Electrum gives you more advanced control of your coins. It is still up to you to change your receiving addresses from the long list of addresses shown in Electrum. Ledger Live isn't as user-friendly. If you are expecting 5 different incoming transactions, you can simply select 5 new addresses on Electrum, but you can't do the same thing on Ledger Live. The receiving address you are offered has to be funded before you are shown a different one. One way to circumvent this is to create several different bitcoin accounts and generate a new address on each one. But Ledger Live has limits for such scenarios as well. It wont let you create too many new bitcoin accounts unless the previous accounts received coins. 

Depends on the data size of the transaction...

you can still send with 1 sat/byte fee rates... it'll just take a while, given that there are nearly 50 something blocks worth of unconfirmed 1 sat/byte transactions currently.




Even with the massive spike in price... that's 0.00027 US cents per byte... So, a "standard" 1 in/2 out type transaction of around 200 bytes would be 0.054 US cents... obviously, if you want it confirmed quickly, you'd currently need to pay a higher fee rate (somewhere around 80-100 sats/byte at the time of writing)... which would be ~$4 - $5...

You can reuse every address as many times as you want (be careful about that when using custodial wallets). Both Ledger Live and Electrum generate a new address once you use the previous one.


You can decrease the "sat/byte" parameter. The lowest acceptable value by the vast majority of nodes is 1. The more inputs and outputs the transaction has, the more space in a block it takes. That's why you pay more for such transactions.


You can't do it from Ledger Live. Such a transaction would be rejected by the vast majority of nodes anyway.

I didn't know nano ledger s... gives you a new receiving address each time a receiving address is used.  When i used electrum, i recall i used the same receiving address many times.  So that is how nano ledger s is different from electrum?



Also with the talk about the sending fees and inputs... you could still make the sending fee what you want.  So even with those inputs, couldn't you send btc and pay a low fee still with nano ledger s?



I recalled a while back, i used electrum and made my sending fee either 0 or like a few cents... of course this was when btc was in the three figures i believe. 



But you cannot send btc for free now right with nano ledger s?  I recall with electrum, i used that bitcoin accelerator site to make it go faster etc.



But right now what is the minimum usd amount it seem to cost right now if you send btc?

When you setup your "accounts" in Ledger Live... it receives a copy of your "Master Public Key" from the device. This allows Ledger Live to derive all your receiving addresses, even when the device is not connected!

Technically, you only need to the device connected if you want to do address confirmation on the device screen to ensure that your Ledger Live has not been compromised and is not generating "fake" addresses to steal your funds. This is HIGHLY recommended.

However... the address shown is NOT your "default" receive address... it is just the first receiving address that has currently not received any funds. Once that address receives some funds, it will be marked as "used" by Ledger Live and next time you click "Receive" tab, it'll give you the next unused receive address.


A transaction using "Native SegWit" inputs, results in a transaction with a smaller transaction "size"... than a transaction that has the same number of Legacy or "Nested" SegWit inputs.

This allows one of 2 things:

1) You save on fees, as the same fee rate with a smaller transaction size obviously results in a smaller total transaction fee paid:

ie. possible example:
10 input Legacy transaction = 2000 bytes
10 input NestedSegwit Transaction = 1000 bytes
10 input NativeSegwit Transaction = 750 bytes

If all 3 paid the fee rate of 10 sats/byte... it's obvious why Native Segwit pays a smaller total fee


2) A less obvious result, is that you could potentially get your transaction confirmed "faster"... by paying a higher fee rate, that results in the same total fee...

ie. possible example:
10 input Legacy transaction = 2000 bytes
10 input NestedSegwit Transaction = 1000 bytes
10 input NativeSegwit Transaction = 750 bytes

If the Legacy transaction was set at 10 sats/byte, the total fee paid would be 20,000 sats... but as the Native Segwit one is only 750 bytes, if you paid 20,000 sats total fee... your effective fee rate would have to be: 26.6 sats/byte!!?! This would obviously be a higher priority transaction for the miners



As for whether you should use "Nested" or "Native" segwit... I'd say that if the services/websites you use support "native" segwit, then I'd recommend you use that. If you use some that don't support the "bc1" native addresses, stick with the "Nested" ("3"-type) account in Ledger Live.

It honestly, doesn't really matter which one you use... they're both "better" than Legacy addresses

As well as the inputs, a transaction also needs to include data relating to the version, an optional flag, the input count, the output count, the outputs themselves, and the locktime. All of these things take up space. If you send one transaction with three inputs, you only need to send all these things once. If you send three separate transactions, you need to send all these things three times. Three transactions with one input each will take up much more space than one transaction using the same three inputs.

If you have received 3x 0.01 BTC and want to spend 0.03 BTC in a transaction, then in your transaction you must specify "Include input 1" and "Include input 2" and "Include input 3". If you have received 1 BTC and want to spend 0.03 BTC, then you must only specify "Include input 1". This takes up less data, and so is therefore cheaper in terms of fees.

Apart from inputs and outputs, each transaction contains some other data which also increase the weight. That's why it will be cheaper to send a transaction with 3 inputs rather than 3 smaller transactions.


The person with the 50 inputs will pay way more than the other person.


Yes, you can enter whatever transaction fee you want in sat/byte.

Well i mean in the example you receive 0.01 btc , 0.01 btc and another 0.01 btc.  But i mean assuming you already have 1 btc in your segwit wallet balance to start. 



Now you have 1.03 btc in your segwit address.  So if you choose to send 0.03 btc to someone in nested segwit in one transaction, compared to sending  0.01 btc three different times... which is more expensive?  Now if you do this with native segwit... either way price difference isn't going to be much difference right?  But nested it would be but you say slightly?



Im confused why it would cost a bit more sending 0.03 btc at once when receiving 0.01btc 3 times.  You mentioned inputs... has it always been like that even with legacy in nano ledger s?  What about electrum?



So for example... if someone has 1 btc... but they received it in over 50 tiny transactions... then try to send the entire balance to someone or a site... and compare that to someone who has 1 btc but received it in either one or two transactions and they are sending it to someone or a site... that second person will pay a ton in fees compared to the first person because there are 50 inputs in the first guy but only one or two with the second guy?


Also i recall with electrum, you could change the fees and pay very little... of course transaction will take very long.  But can you do that with nano ledger s still especially if you have lot of inputs?

Legacy - 1..., (nested) SegWit - 3..., native SegWit - bc1... "SegWit address" can technically refer to both nested SegWit and native SegWit address. Adding "nested" helps to be more precise.


If you receive 3x 0.01 BTC and 1x 1 BTC then you will have 4 inputs when you try to spend 1.03 BTC. Such a transaction will be slightly more expensive if you send it from a nested SegWit address.


You're close. I meant spending 0.03 BTC after receiving 0.01 BTC 3 times.

Just to make sure... when you and others talk about legacy address.. you mean the ones that start with a 1.  So native segwit addresses start with a 1 right?  I know legacy address start with a 1 and nested segwit start with a 3 right?  Also i dont hear much ppl call it nested segwit.  Most seem to say just segwit. 



Because i been mainly using the one that start with a 3 when i check my previous received btc to my nano ledger s in ledger live. 



You say its no big deal which receiving address i use such as native segwit or the one i been using segwit if i just hold. 



But if i receiving many small frequent payments which i will later spend in one single transaction... how would that make a difference?  Example imagine receiving 0.01 btc , 0.01 btc and another 0.01 btc.  Now you have 1.03 btc in your segwit address.  Now you send the entire 1.03 btc from segwit to native segwit.  That is not much of an price fee difference right as oppose to sending 1 btc from segwit to native segwit?



I assume you mean like you then spend 0.01 btc 3 times etc after receiving 0.01 btc 3 different times?  Is that what you mean?  If so, okay i understand that.

When I and other people talk about a legacy address, we mean an address starting with 1. In terms of the fees, native SegWit > (nested) SegWit > legacy address.


That's correct.


It's no big deal if you just hold. It makes a huge difference if you receive many small frequent payments which you later spend in a single transaction.

Okay... so when you say having your coins in a segwit address is better than legacy translates to having your coins in a segwit address is better than a native segwit right?  Or do you mean the old legacy from years ago before native segwit was introduced?



Well using my example that i gave... let say you have 1 btc to make the math simple.  You want to receive 0.01 btc right now.  You have 0 btc in the native segwit address and 1 btc in the segwit address.  It's not really a big deal just giving that site/person my segwit address right as oppose to native segwit?  Since that way... you would have 1.01 btc in segwit address as oppose to 1 btc in segwit and 0.01 in native segwit?



Thus its only a big deal if you are sending a lot of times?  If you are holding, well no big deal then right?  Just send the btc all from the segwit to native segwit in the future?

Those sites might not be able to send coins to your address, but you will be always able to spend your coins.


That depends on what services you use. See this list. Pay attention to "Send to" or "Withdrawal address". You will be fine with the vast majority of exchanges and all payment processors. Other Bitcoin users usually keep their wallets up-to-date, so receiving coins from them shouldn't be a problem either.

Hey okay... so segwit which i have coins in... is what most sites accept.  For some reason, i read it as native segwit was the main thing now and what i use segwit... might not work.  


That make sense when you say June 2019, as i set up my nano ledger s the year before that.   And thus from June 2019, I didn't send/receive much btc anymore.


You say i should receive all new funds in native segwit addresses from now on.  But since its been mentioned some sites will not recognize native segwit ... in a way... isn' it better you play it safe by just receiving btc to the segwit address instead?  Also when you say some sites won't recognize native segwit... you mean them sending btc right and not receiving?  Or is it the other way around?  

My reply is correct. (nested) SegWit (3...) ensures full compatibility while sending to native SegWit (bc1...) addresses will be a problem for outdated software. However, I don't think that's a real problem since most services and exchanges updated their software.


I don't remember when it was added to Ledger Live, but I recall that it started to be enforced as a default about half a year ago.


You're right. There are no fees for receiving Bitcoin. I gave you an example showing that you are going to pay more for a transaction when you combine 3 small UTXOs (inputs) into 1 Bitcoin rather than when you use 1 UTXO worth 1 BTC.


I wrote that having your coins on a SegWit address is better than having them on a legacy address, but you could save more money in the future by moving to native SegWit.

Some outdated software and services will not recognize native segwit (bc1) addresses. Everything should recognize nested segwit (3) addresses.

The segwit softfork was implemented in August 2017. Ledger Live added native segwit support around June 2019, if I remember correctly.

Who knows? Some will have moved their funds to native segwit to take advantage of lower fees, some will not. Impossible to put a figure on it.

No, it doesn't really make a huge difference if you leave your funds in nested segwit or move them all to native segwit if you aren't making frequent transactions. If I were you, I would simply receive all new funds to native segwit addresses, and the next time I need to pay someone or send some coins somewhere, use up the coins from my nested segwit addresses until all my funds were eventually in native segwit.

Hey.


I assume you made a mistake in your post when you say some old software won't be able to send coins to your segwit address right?  You say native segwit address in your post.



When did native segwit became the norm?  Again when i set up my nano ledger s wallet two years ago, option was legacy or segwit... that was it.  So when has it been only native segwit or segwit.  Like when exactly did native segwit come in? 



Also, wouldn't it mean most likely lot of ppl keep their btc in segwit as oppose to native segwit if they are holders and haven't moved their btc in a while if they been using a hardware wallet like ledger s for years?
Can't imagine btc holders who been holding for at least two years or more in their nano ledger s decide to just send all their btc to native segwit from segwit right?  I gotta assume most btc holders with nano ledger s have their coins in segwit vs native segwit right?



Yea i see in the accounts section of ledger live... native segwit with balance 0 and segwit with a balance... and yea i know they combine everything in ledger live.


The fees... you  mean if you are sending those three different amounts totaling one btc as oppose to just one btc in a transaction right?  You say receiving... which im confused at because well there is no receiving fees when receiving btc...


You say its better to keep your coins in a legacy address.  Wait... native segwit is a legacy address? 


I thought its a segwit since well it has that word segwit...



Well yea using native segwit makes sense in saving even more money.  The thing is i have my all btc in segwit wallet.  If i was starting a new wallet nor or just start to receive btc, it make sense to receive it in the native segwit since its cheaper.


So i thought well if i receive btc now and use segwit like where my balance is... is there really any harm?  For example imagine you have 1 btc to make it simple.  Now you want to receive btc... and send it to your native segwit address which you have no balance and never used and let say you are receiving 0.01 btc.  I mean... having it sent to your segwit address wouldn't really be a big difference right?  Imagine having 1.01 btc in your segwit address... or 0.01 btc in your native segwit and 1 btc in your segwit address.  I mean if you going to send the entire balance later on to the native segwit... 1 btc or 1.01btc is going to be pretty much close to same price right?  Or if you plan to hold for a while, not a big difference?  I mean i can't imagine holders who haven't touched their btc in years... decide to okay... let me send all my btc from segwit to native segwit so i save fees in future when i sell right?


Now if you want to send many small btc amounts...then obviously you will pay a little bit more since the btc is in the segwit address.


Im curious who else keep their btc in a segwit address here?  I have to assume holders are doing so right as they don't touch their btc in their nano ledger s?

Yes, I would recommend you doing that. Some old software won't be able to send coins to your native SegWit address, but if you use major exchanges, it shouldn't be a problem. Check out this compatibility list.


Ah, I see. You won't be able to spend from those two accounts in a single transaction. You will see their combined balance in Ledger Live, though.


I have just double-checked the fees and it looks like I was wrong. Despite the growing price, they are quite low. You should get your transaction confirmed in the next block if you pay 6 sat/byte. You would now pay 6 sat/byte no matter what type of address you used. The difference is in the size of the transaction made from each type of address. See the answer below.


There is no straight answer to this question. The final fee heavily depends on the transaction size. The size increases as you add more inputs and outputs. You will pay more for a 1 BTC transaction if you received, for example, 0.2 BTC, 0.5 BTC and 0.3 BTC and not 1 BTC in a single transaction. Also, inputs and outputs for each type of address have a different weight. Native SegWit inputs/outputs weight the least, thus transactions made from such an address are the cheapest.

A legacy input weights 149 vbytes; SegWit 93 vbytes and native SegWit 68 vbytes. As you can see, you can pay over 50% less for a single input if you move from a legacy address to a native SegWit one. The savings on outputs are negligible. See this post for more detailed information.

You can play with this website to see it for yourself. Keep in mind that this website does not have a slider for native SegWit.


It is better than keeping your coins on a legacy address. You get slightly lower fees, but why not use native SegWit and save even more money?

So to everyone else... almost all of you receive btc to your native segwit address now as oppose to segwit address?


Again, i like to know when did native segwit because the normal?  Years ago when i created nano ledger wallet address... i am pretty sure only option was legacy or segwit right?  Thus only two options? 


But now... its only native segwit or segwit?  Back then i recall if you picked segwit over legacy, you do this because the fees were cheaper.  So nowadays, its because native segwit is cheaper?  Also to those of you who kept your btc in your segwit address... did you move them to the native segwit?  I assume if you are holding... not a big deal.  But if you send and receive btc a lot, its a must to move the btc to the native segwit address?